The offer is still valuable for the time being, but makes no guarantee the shifty guy won't betray the party the moment he thinks he can get away with it.
This was literally my stereotypical character when I'd guest star as a PC when one of my friends was GM'ing, to the point people would groan when I showed up, knowing some kind of Machiavellian bullshit was about to go down.
I could get away with this with friends but when I did it with strangers, they literally wanted to physically kick my ass.
Yeah, by most accounts Gygax was a mediocre at best businessman and something of a douche to other people in the company. If he didn't have a product so good that it basically sold itself he'd never have gotten off the ground. It's a not-uncommon problem with creator-owned companies. That shit with Arneson is a prime example of a situation that could've been handled gracefully if someone with better sense had been at the wheel.
Gygax was an abysmal businessman, and he was bit of an authoritarian douche in public life in general to anyone he felt had slighted him. He was prickly.
This no way detracts from the fact he had an intuitive grasp on gaming and rules, and I don't think a "nicer" person would have been able to be effective at GMing as he was.
Putting it lightly... dude Rekieta'd it up to the extreme to do blow and starlets in California when the D&D animated show deal was going down, leaving his wife & keedz alone to fend for themselves alone for a few months.
I went to check this but damn it is spread across a couple rulebooks and they are frankly kind of expensive. Does any website do like a bundle or something so I am not spending $150 to just read through the system to see if I like it?
Gygax was an abysmal businessman, and he was bit of an authoritarian douche in public life in general to anyone he felt had slighted him. He was prickly.
This no way detracts from the fact he had an intuitive grasp on gaming and rules, and I don't think a "nicer" person would have been able to be effective at GMing as he was.
I mean it also didn't help that he had a horrible habit of picking the wrong people to assist him. Remember the guy that he had as a partner was responsible for backstabbing him and basically taking the company out from him. I mean admittedly, that was while he was doing insane shit in California, but that was how Lorraine Williams got her hands on it.
After a month of looking at least once a night, I've finally been successful in finding a trove of WoD books. About 40gig of almosteverything White Wolf and Onyx published, it seems. Not that I intend to run any troupes, I just like reading corebooks and lorebooks and such sometimes.
I found the 20th Anniv. versions of Vamp/Were/Mage/Wraith/Demon a while ago, but for some reason I wasn't content with them, and reading the first few pages of VtM 1st Edition at work this morning has kinda vindicated this obsession:
V20 has a big dollop of ego and is missing its edge. It opens with testimonies talking about how VtM changed people's lives and shit. It has snark about "we won't bother explaining what role playing is or what dice are". It's very soft, silky, and manipulative - reading it feels like watching a Netflix show, velveted for a mass audience.
V1 on the other hand feels like ACTUAL Gothic-Punk. It starts with a dedication to the former President of the Czech Republic, and an angry history: Vampires were created via the punishment for a hefty Sin committed by Caine. Caine forbade his kindred from making their own childer, as each generation forbade their progeny from same. Each generation broke that rule in order to take power: The Greek, Persian, and Tartar empires are explicitly the results of the Fifth Generation taking over.
Multiple kindred throughout history have claimed to be Caine returned. Apparently the Antediluvians have already done a Gehenna once before, giving a lot more weight to the Vampires' apocalyptic beliefs.
There's a lot more grit and grimdark in the first 4 pages of V1, than the whole first 1/5th of the V20 corebook. I'm glad I kept looking each night until I found all the older stuff.
I find it funny how literally everything bad in history was due to vampires in OWOD... except Hitler of course. It's a bit like Forgotten Realms in this regard: what's the point in even trying with your 13gen neonates when there's all these horribly OP do not steal individuals running every show you could dip your fangs in?
I find it funny how literally everything bad in history was due to vampires in OWOD... except Hitler of course. It's a bit like Forgotten Realms in this regard: what's the point in even trying with your 13gen neonates when there's all these horribly OP do not steal individuals running every show you could dip your fangs in?
This no way detracts from the fact he had an intuitive grasp on gaming and rules, and I don't think a "nicer" person would have been able to be effective at GMing as he was.
I find it funny how literally everything bad in history was due to vampires in OWOD... except Hitler of course. It's a bit like Forgotten Realms in this regard: what's the point in even trying with your 13gen neonates when there's all these horribly OP do not steal individuals running every show you could dip your fangs in?
You're not wrong, but the entire cyberpunk genre does basically the same thing. It's just a different form of dystopia. In Shadowrun and Cyberpunk you can go around trying to eek out a living doing heists or jobs for corpos and other much more powerful entities but if you're ever at the point of taking out a corporation, dragon, etc. your campaign has gone totally off the rails into fantasy land doing god knows what stupid shit and the game system falls apart. The same thing happens with OWOD if you decide to let the players actually interact with anything of any importance or possibly gain some of that power for themselves.
The entire thing seems to loop back around so hard with the identity shit, into parody and "taking it back" that it's easy to look at and wonder if it's antisemitic.
It's just dumb short-sighted contrarianism. "Da EVIL CHUDS like playing paladins? Well guess what, liches are good akshyually!" I can guarantee there was no more thought put into the concept than that and telling them how it looks just makes them double down.
The only people who would become liches IRL are unemploymentmaxxing MOBA addicts. Like, think about it. Your nerves don't work, no one wants to be near you because you smell like a dusty cadaver, and you will only get more and more out of touch sitting alone in your goon tower losing track of time as you review your Genitalus Explodus spell for the thousandth time.
For all of of the issues oD&D had, it at least recognized that players will want to make changes to the world at a high enough power level. Cramming a setting full of party wiping Villain Sues because the upper bounds of ability would allow players to meaningfully change the setting is obnoxious.
After a month of looking at least once a night, I've finally been successful in finding a trove of WoD books. About 40gig of almosteverything White Wolf and Onyx published, it seems. Not that I intend to run any troupes, I just like reading corebooks and lorebooks and such sometimes.
I found the 20th Anniv. versions of Vamp/Were/Mage/Wraith/Demon a while ago, but for some reason I wasn't content with them, and reading the first few pages of VtM 1st Edition at work this morning has kinda vindicated this obsession:
V20 has a big dollop of ego and is missing its edge. It opens with testimonies talking about how VtM changed people's lives and shit. It has snark about "we won't bother explaining what role playing is or what dice are". It's very soft, silky, and manipulative - reading it feels like watching a Netflix show, velveted for a mass audience.
V1 on the other hand feels like ACTUAL Gothic-Punk. It starts with a dedication to the former President of the Czech Republic, and an angry history: Vampires were created via the punishment for a hefty Sin committed by Caine. Caine forbade his kindred from making their own childer, as each generation forbade their progeny from same. Each generation broke that rule in order to take power: The Greek, Persian, and Tartar empires are explicitly the results of the Fifth Generation taking over.
Multiple kindred throughout history have claimed to be Caine returned. Apparently the Antediluvians have already done a Gehenna once before, giving a lot more weight to the Vampires' apocalyptic beliefs.
There's a lot more grit and grimdark in the first 4 pages of V1, than the whole first 1/5th of the V20 corebook. I'm glad I kept looking each night until I found all the older stuff.
I started during V2 and never tried anything else but it was really fucking annoying to see that every Vampire player and GM I ran into treated it as some kind of a superhero game at night. My Brujah was as dumb as a rock but even he missed his life. He was a Chad from a rich family who used to play in a punk band, partied a lot and was drowning in pussy. I actually knew someone almost like this who lived in a mansion but was bumming cigs and change for beer. I'm doing a monologue about how undeath sucks and trying to keep it as simple as possible while the other players are giggling that they can flip over cars, grow large claws, etc. Fuck all of those 80s and early 90s movies that showed us how being a vampire isn't fun like The Lost Boys, Near Dark, Subspecies, Midnight Kiss/Vampire Cop, Interview, Dance of the Damned, John Carpenter's Vampires and Fright Night 2, right?
The only people who would become liches IRL are unemploymentmaxxing MOBA addicts. Like, think about it. Your nerves don't work, no one wants to be near you because you smell like a dusty cadaver, and you will only get more and more out of touch sitting alone in your goon tower losing track of time as you review your Genitalus Explodus spell for the thousandth time.
liches are often powerful magic users, its safe to assume that a proper lich knows some illusion magic that can make people not realize its a lich
if a lich wants to get out of its tower and socialize, it can cast smth that will give it an illusionary human appearence and mask away the corpse smell
its just most liches are indeed unemployment-maxxing gooners
That's sort of the reason I was so interested in getting the original editions: I made the assumption that the original version would probably have much edgier and more interesting writing and artwork, and that seems to be the case. The 1st Edition book really hammers on VtM V1 being a horror game. The experience of being a vampire is painted as being abusive and self-loathing at best, and when the going gets rough it's a literal mind-breaking horror experience as you have to do shit that drains your Humanity (they call it 'Humanitas' in V1, but whatever). Almost cosmic horror-ish with the way it says that there's no real "win" condition to any story, and you should expect your character to end up dying or eventually going insane. The artwork I've seen so far reminds me a lot of some OG Fighting Fantasy books back when they were published by Puffin.
It describes itself as the kind of setting where I would feel 1000% justified in bitchslapping any player not taking it seriously. Sure, they can flip cars or be snarky at bystanders, but they've just cut their character's (un)lifespan down to the two days it takes someone a lot more savvy and a lot more dangerous to track them down and fuck their shit up.
Luckily I never really had to deal with players being retarded, the flatmates I used to play stuff with were on board with taking shit seriously. You might need a more serious conversation during prep about "don't be fucking retards in my game, plz" or find some better friends.
I started during V2 and never tried anything else but it was really fucking annoying to see that every Vampire player and GM I ran into treated it as some kind of a superhero game at night
The funny thing is people tend to complain about munchkins and minmaxers in d&d, but the world of darkness I think competes with it in terms of power gaming.
Though I will say it is a bit odd that you didn't run into anyone trying to go hard on The angst element because that is a very common play.
That's sort of the reason I was so interested in getting the original editions: I made the assumption that the original version would probably have much edgier and more interesting writing and artwork, and that seems to be the case. The 1st Edition book really hammers on VtM V1 being a horror game. The experience of being a vampire is painted as being abusive and self-loathing at best, and when the going gets rough it's a literal mind-breaking horror experience as you have to do shit that drains your Humanity (they call it 'Humanitas' in V1, but whatever). Almost cosmic horror-ish with the way it says that there's no real "win" condition to any story, and you should expect your character to end up dying or eventually going insane. The artwork I've seen so far reminds me a lot of some OG Fighting Fantasy books back when they were published by Puffin.
It describes itself as the kind of setting where I would feel 1000% justified in bitchslapping any player not taking it seriously. Sure, they can flip cars or be snarky at bystanders, but they've just cut their character's (un)lifespan down to the two days it takes someone a lot more savvy and a lot more dangerous to track them down and fuck their shit up.
Luckily I never really had to deal with players being retarded, the flatmates I used to play stuff with were on board with taking shit seriously. You might need a more serious conversation during prep about "don't be fucking retards in my game, plz" or find some better friends.
The thing is that the angsty stuff is its own level of cringe as going full murderhobo. VtM is infamous for the pretentiousness of some players, and they are locked in an eternal battle with the guy who just want to max out strength and leap tall buildings.
At the end of the day the system gives you a ton of funky powers but also tells you to make a cool person that is some level screwed. People tend to default to some modern day adventurer where you're not just an average joe but a criminal or a millionaire or something and you also have superpowers.
The middle ground becomes criminal drama. The natural expression of the system has far more in common with Goodfellas, Scarface, or any other mafia movies than it has with either Diary of a Vampire, Twilight or superheroes. You mix up some skulking in the dark, some criminal shit or investigation, some existential angst, some tense backroom deals, and then you have some big action scene where everyone gets to wreak havoc but instead of tommy guns they use magic powers.
The art of old vtm is amazing. The art of any successful rpg that's lasted for a few decades tend to be.
But the game really gets torn between what it can be and what it is.
I mean it also didn't help that he had a horrible habit of picking the wrong people to assist him. Remember the guy that he had as a partner was responsible for backstabbing him and basically taking the company out from him. I mean admittedly, that was while he was doing insane shit in California, but that was how Lorraine Williams got her hands on it.
You're thinking of Brian Blume. Same guy also advised Gygax that compiling expansion & house rules for D&D into one book, changing the class system, and calling it "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons" would mean they didn't have to pay Arneson any more. Shocking that a Jew would behave that way.
Cramming a setting full of party wiping Villain Sues because the upper bounds of ability would allow players to meaningfully change the setting is obnoxious.
Party-wiping villain sues are bad, but not every RPG setting needs to be about super heroes saving the world. I like Shadowrun exactly because I'm not a super important hero, I'm just a bastard trying to live without being shackled like the niggercattle population. Sure, my actions can affect something in the setting, but I'm not capable of bringing a big corpo down on my own, and my name will probably be forgotten in less than a week after my death.
It's similar to CoC, you're not playing that to kill Ctulhu. Some people like to just live in the setting and have severe limits while telling a cool story.