Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[Corn Flakes]

Both 3E and PF were notorious for what I call 'autism builds'. I've run across some real winners.

There was a gunslinger PC -- I think he was some kind of weird gunslinger/ranger multiclass -- in a game I was in, where he did absolutely ridiculous damage. I think what irked me (and my fellow players) more, though, was that he had all the characterization of a wet noodle. If he'd leaned into -- or even straight up lifted wholesale -- stuff from the classic spaghetti Westerns with Eastwood, it would've been great fun. But no, he was numbers on a character sheet, while the rest of us were playing mischievous rogue, cook-the-monsters fighter, and floofy elf noble.

These are the ones that truly irk me. I'll excuse most overpowered builds if the character itself is fun, or at the very least interesting to interact with due to their personality or concept.

After all, our GM is more than good enough to work around most dumbass infinite-minus-one-damage-per-turn builds with clever encounter design, and if the rest of the group wants to keep up we can crack open some splats and make our own dumb builds.

But there's nothing that can fix a boring character that exists only to consume oxygen and roll damage dice.

 

[Tactical Wizard]

I do like 3.5 Greyhawk the most because that's what my dad and brother used to play all the time. I might play 4 but if someone asks me to play 5 I'm just going to flat out say no, not even an insult can express my disdain for that cluster of a game.

It wasn’t always like that. Fifth edition started as a sincere attempt to win back fan good will and if you go back to anything published between 2014 and 2019 most of it is… fine. It’s nostalgia bait. This was the era of Curse of Strahd, Princes of the Apocalypse, Ghosts of Saltmarsh, Tales from the Yawning Portal and the Sword Coast Book that was just setting info for the forgotten realms that put it back to basically how it was in third.

System wise, it was meant to feel like red box D&D without actually being based upon it. Probably because they brought in a bunch of OSR guys like Kasimir Urbanski and Zak Smith and those guys worship at the altar of BECMI. And for a time, it was.

For a time. Corporate churn somewhere around late 2019 or 2020 showed Mearles and Winninger the door. We started getting a lot of trend chasing and Twitter faggotry. The absolute joke that was Candlekeep Mysteries and its wheelchair-accessible dungeons. Tasha’s subclasses broke the balance of the game and introduced “optional” floating stat bonuses that then proceeded to make their way into every subsequent release.

So that’s the weird thing, 5e at launch and for years resembled nothing of what it became.

 

[Ghostse]

It wasn’t always like that. Fifth edition started as a sincere attempt to win back fan good will and if you go back to anything published between 2014 and 2019 most of it is… fine. It’s nostalgia bait. This was the era of Curse of Strahd, Princes of the Apocalypse, Ghosts of Saltmarsh, Tales from the Yawning Portal and the Sword Coast Book that was just setting info for the forgotten realms that put it back to basically how it was in third.

System wise, it was meant to feel like red box D&D without actually being based upon it. Probably because they brought in a bunch of OSR guys like Kasimir Urbanski and Zak Smith and those guys worship at the altar of BECMI. And for a time, it was.

For a time. Corporate churn somewhere around late 2019 or 2020 showed Mearles and Winninger the door. We started getting a lot of trend chasing and Twitter faggotry. The absolute joke that was Candlekeep Mysteries and its wheelchair-accessible dungeons. Tasha’s subclasses broke the balance of the game and introduced “optional” floating stat bonuses that then proceeded to make their way into every subsequent release.

So that’s the weird thing, 5e at launch and for years resembled nothing of what it became.

I hate subclasses and if I'm going to be dealing with Vancian Casting I'll just do 3.5

These are the ones that truly irk me. I'll excuse most overpowered builds if the character itself is fun, or at the very least interesting to interact with due to their personality or concept.

After all, our GM is more than good enough to work around most dumbass infinite-minus-one-damage-per-turn builds with clever encounter design, and if the rest of the group wants to keep up we can crack open some splats and make our own dumb builds.

But there's nothing that can fix a boring character that exists only to consume oxygen and roll damage dice.

The real thing I hate with a lot of gimmick builds is the GM has in-game RAW tools to shut them down, but if you use them the character is now worthless.

 

[Tactical Wizard]

@Ghostse I can’t quote you for some reason but I have a big list of things that I’d like to change about the edition, death saves being chief among them. One thing that I’d like to bring back are prestige classes but with the caveat of “you get one of these and once you’re on it, you’re on it because it’s your career now.”

Also, don’t you run 4th ed? That’s where subclasses come from.

 

[Ghostse]

Also, don’t you run 4th ed? That’s where subclasses come from.

Not really. Well, definitely not to the level of 5e.

In 4e, in the PHBs there are two "builds" for each class. Sometimes its an actual class option, sometimes its just a suggestion of what feats & powers to select. There is usually an extra build option for each class in the "X Power" book (or X Power 2 book) and I recall dragon magazine (which I don't count as existing) had some options.

Example, for fighter you just chose "One handed to two handed" weapons. Warlock had 3 pact options. Ranger was ranged or dual wield. Warlord you could have an Inspiring Presence or a Tactical presence. Etc. But Cleric for example was only about power selection.

They also introduced Paragon Paths but those don't kick in till lvl 10, and LOL any campagin making it to lvl 10. LOL.

 

[titty skeleton]

if I'm going to be dealing with Vancian Casting I'll just do 3.5

I don't expect anyone to have a good answer for this question but I think it's worth an ask: Has anyone ever managed to play in or DM a game where a system other than Vancian casting had been used? The only alternate system I've seen in recent memory is Spell Points.

To narrow this down I'll restrict it to 3.5/PF. I've always been interested in alternate magic systems. Not for any balance purposes though. I don't think anyone could deploy an alternate magical system that feels good without kvetching from munchkins.

Any system recommendations that drift away from Vancian casting are also welcomed. I've had my eyes on Ars Magica and Fantasycraft since their mentions in the thread but haven't had a chance to skim read them.

 

[Shidoen]

I don’t care if it’s not viable In 3.5 I love playing an elf paladin because I also try my best to figure a way to multi-class a sorcerer to make a mana-draining, plate wearing, light magic wielding, elitist bastard

 

[Ghostse]

I don't expect anyone to have a good answer for this question but I think it's worth an ask: Has anyone ever managed to play in or DM a game where a system other than Vancian casting had been used? The only alternate system I've seen in recent memory is Spell Points.

To narrow this down I'll restrict it to 3.5/PF. I've always been interested in alternate magic systems. Not for any balance purposes though. I don't think anyone could deploy an alternate magical system that feels good without kvetching from munchkins.

Any system recommendations that drift away from Vancian casting are also welcomed. I've had my eyes on Ars Magica and Fantasycraft since their mentions in the thread but haven't had a chance to skim read them.

4e had combat spells be AtWill/Encounter/Daily, and non-combat spells be rituals with long cast times.
I've never seen a (serious) effort at 3.5/PF to move from vancian casting unless you want to count forbidding innate combat casting and making all combat spells come from scrolls or wands (or similar)

 

[Scream Aim Fire]

Question right the fuck out of nowhere for anyone that's ever played Shadowrun; have you ever ran a successful Drake or Changeling character? Because I've taken a look at the character options for both, and I really don't see the appeal of either, personally.

EDIT: Also, if you have, what kind of build would you use? Would you run them as Mages, Street Samurai, Adept, Rogue, Shaman, etc.?

 

[Waifuwars]

I don't expect anyone to have a good answer for this question but I think it's worth an ask: Has anyone ever managed to play in or DM a game where a system other than Vancian casting had been used? The only alternate system I've seen in recent memory is Spell Points.

To narrow this down I'll restrict it to 3.5/PF. I've always been interested in alternate magic systems. Not for any balance purposes though. I don't think anyone could deploy an alternate magical system that feels good without kvetching from munchkins.

Any system recommendations that drift away from Vancian casting are also welcomed. I've had my eyes on Ars Magica and Fantasycraft since their mentions in the thread but haven't had a chance to skim read them.

Spheres of Power has spell points and has a "modular" system where it breaks out certain types of magic into different "spheres". Your character receives a certain number of talents per level depending on if they're a low, mid, or high caster. Recreating Vancian spells requires multiple talents and at higher levels Vancian casting is much more OP. It definitely offers more options for the player but holy shit building a single character in spheres takes forever and keeping track of all of your character's abilities is a pain in the ass. Munchkins can make some extremely broken characters in this subsystem as expected, but that usually results in the GM nerfing them during the campaign and then kvetching as they have to retain their character. Overall, Spheres does offer an interesting alternative to Vancian casting and generally is more flavorful in what you can do.

Fuck making NPCs with it though. I ain't got time for that and just slap random abilities that seem cool when I'm GMing.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

I've never seen a (serious) effort at 3.5/PF to move from vancian casting unless you want to count forbidding innate combat casting and making all combat spells come from scrolls or wands (or similar)

The only real serious effort in the 3.5 era to move away from Vancian casting was with Psionics, which work on a power point system instead, and was actually well implemented. Sorcerers and bards also moved away from Vancian casting by being "spontaneous casters" but to a much lesser extent.

 

[40 Year Old Boomer]

I don't expect anyone to have a good answer for this question but I think it's worth an ask: Has anyone ever managed to play in or DM a game where a system other than Vancian casting had been used? The only alternate system I've seen in recent memory is Spell Points.

Mage: the Ascension had a very flexible magic system where you could create your own rotes/spells based upon the spheres you had access too and was very fun. Also various thaumaturgy/necromancy paths/rituals in Vampire: the Masquerade. I also ran a game using the EverQuest tabletop system which was based somewhat on D&D 3rd. You had mana points that were used to fuel specific spells, and also split wizard into four separate classes: Enchanter (enchantments and illusions), Magician (conjuration, some evocation and abjuration), Wizard (Evocation, teleportation, some abjuration), and Necromancer.

 

[Ghostse]

The only real serious effort in the 3.5 era to move away from Vancian casting was with Psionics, which work on a power point system instead, and was actually well implemented. Sorcerers and bards also moved away from Vancian casting by being "spontaneous casters" but to a much lesser extent.

I don't even mean during the 3.5 era. I saw some forum threads since where people were trying to replace the magic system with something less complex - to either make it easier for new players, streamline play, prevent munchkinning, etc. Only thing that went anywhere was a GM who decided for their games that anything other than a cantrip was too complex to cast in 6 seconds with fights that barely lasted 30 seconds, thus spell casters had to make wands/scrolls for combat casting (and divine casters make reliquaries) and Bards had to already be singing when shit went down if bonuses would apply.
You were limited to a certain number of items per-day based on ability mod to prevent munchkins from casting the entire magic list. Scrolls were exempt and I can't remember how scrolls were supposed to be stopped from being cheesed.
It seemed like reasonable idea with a good execution method for a world where magic was supposed to be the uncommon workings of arcane forces, but the execution was overly complex and my eyes eventually glazed over.

 

[East_Clintwood]

Question right the fuck out of nowhere for anyone that's ever played Shadowrun; have you ever ran a successful Drake or Changeling character? Because I've taken a look at the character options for both, and I really don't see the appeal of either, personally.

Drakes are dogshit as PCs, both thematically and mechanically, and are best completely ignored. Changelings are only played by furries, people who want to be super speshul snowflakes or min-maxing faggots, no exceptions.

 

[Scream Aim Fire]

Drakes are dogshit as PCs, both thematically and mechanically, and are best completely ignored. Changelings are only played by furries, people who want to be super speshul snowflakes or min-maxing faggots, no exceptions.

Yeah, that's basically the thought I had about both. Changelings seem to have been put in to appeal to furries, what with the rather snowflake writing that they have.

Meanwhile, I... really can't fathom how in the hell you'd even run a Drake character, given both the insane cost and the disadvantages, both narratively and gameplaywise, that they have. Makes you wonder why they're even an option.

 

[Pendulous Dong]

This is going to sound crazy, but I don't like hitpoints. I'm looking for a system where getting shot in the arm might break your arm or give you a painful flesh wound instead of doing 1d10 damage. As of now the only system I'm aware of that does this without devolving into an autistic nightmare is Burning Wheel, but which ones do you guys like?

 

[Acrid Alchemist]

This is going to sound crazy, but I don't like hitpoints. I'm looking for a system where getting shot in the arm might break your arm or give you a painful flesh wound instead of doing 1d10 damage. As of now the only system I'm aware of that does this without devolving into an autistic nightmare is Burning Wheel, but which ones do you guys like?

Savage Worlds using the Gritty Damage rule kind of does this. You have 3 wounds and can take more than one at a time and any time you are wounded you consult the injury chart which leads to crippled limbs, concussions, removed limbs and damaged eyeballs and such. I can't say I'd ever use Gritty Damage though because Wounds already give ever increasing penalties and it just makes the death spiral worse. The injury table is good for if someone is downed but survives though.

I'd also pirate the Savage Worlds books if you want to look into it since the devs are shitters and don't deserve your money.

 

[Ghostse]

This is going to sound crazy, but I don't like hitpoints. I'm looking for a system where getting shot in the arm might break your arm or give you a painful flesh wound instead of doing 1d10 damage. As of now the only system I'm aware of that does this without devolving into an autistic nightmare is Burning Wheel, but which ones do you guys like?

I've learned to stop worrying and love the hitpoints, treating them as the abstraction they are meant to be. Its that mixture of toughness and luck that has you avoiding the worst of a blow.

In my OSR/OSR/Mazerats games, 0HP is "out of the session" but not necessarily dead. If they can get help in 1d6 rounds, they can be trauma stabilized and maybe survive. If they are evacced to a proper (enough) doctor/temple, there is a chance they'll pull through with consequences.
I haven't found a good system for wounds (don't tell my players) so I just have them roll a 1d100, look at their con-mod, remember what took them down, and make up consequences while making it look like I'm consulting a table.

Its not what you're looking for, but I saw someone who did a write up a while ago on a Spy system that had "Hit Points" be a pool that was reduced by not just combat but also non-combat as well (it was a conversion of some heist game). When you reached zero, something bad happened, and sometimes that something bad - as well of the negatives - gave you some HP back.

 

[Corn Flakes]

This is going to sound crazy, but I don't like hitpoints. I'm looking for a system where getting shot in the arm might break your arm or give you a painful flesh wound instead of doing 1d10 damage. As of now the only system I'm aware of that does this without devolving into an autistic nightmare is Burning Wheel, but which ones do you guys like?

Go look at Dark Heresy and the other 40K RPG games. You're going to find plenty of lasting injuries there.

 

[AnOminous]

This is going to sound crazy, but I don't like hitpoints. I'm looking for a system where getting shot in the arm might break your arm or give you a painful flesh wound instead of doing 1d10 damage. As of now the only system I'm aware of that does this without devolving into an autistic nightmare is Burning Wheel, but which ones do you guys like?

Chaosium's general system involved damages to particular parts of the body with particular effects, not just the weird hit point system where you were totally functional, a complete badass at 1 HP and then just suddenly died when bit by a mosquito.