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- Dec 18, 2019
Yeah that was another idea I had to discourage flying, do it too much and a giant predator will take notice.
Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)
- Thread starter Surtur
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- Aug 23, 2018
Is it a specific rule, or is it just down tuning things like AC and HP? Because lethality has been a recurring issue is basically all Paizo games I've run RAW.
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2017
I always call them Pity Fishers.
You did the right thing. Shape up and fly right or GTFO and go play PbtA.
I fired a player who was one half a of a married couple (effectively firing their spouse as well) who was a problem player for a while, I'd already decided I wasn't doing another campaign with them. The final straw was they were complaining about short little 10 minute tasks I give the players over the week, saying they were stressed out by thinking about the game between sessions; I asked them since they weren't having fun if they wanted to stop playing. When they gave me like a paragraph back about how they weren't sure, I then told them they were going to stop playing since they weren't having fun.
Feels bad man.... but next session when I didn't have to deal with their bullshit I realized that was long overdue.
You don't want to boot people for every little grievance, but at some point they are making shit worse for everyone.
Anyway,
Losing that couple was half the group. Act 3 of the campaign was starting and I didn't feel like trying to onboard new players. I always have a couple of NPCs on deck to cover any absences, so I just promoted them to full characters and gave one to each of the other two players - its not as fun as having a couple extra players but still going year and a half later and looks like it'll actually finish.
So, either give that guy's character to the party or a specific member or DMPC them, and give them the option to recruit a new party member (aka roll a new one) if they want.
I already pass out only-good-for-the-session tokens that add +1 to any d20 roll for things like good RP, having taken notes, etc. And the players get a small non-replenshing pool of D6s the can cash in for rule breaking stuff when they level or complete major quests for the gods (as representations of the Gods' favor). The general idea is I'm not passing the Nat20 tokens, the players are choosing if they want to take the negatives to have a back-pocket auto-hit (even if they still need to confirm their crit).
I think I might turn that banking in to a power just for the Avandra cleric.
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- Joined
- Sep 7, 2019
core rules give advice how to adjust it, it really is just adding/removing another monster, rest stays the same (party size only matters during encounters, and xp reward doesn't change with size either). if it's a single enemy it might be a bit more tricky but usually it's ok to just bump it down a level or 2 and add some cannon fodder or a hazard as distraction while staying roughly with the budget. in general it's a good idea to have a few "equal" enemies than a single big one, in part in how saves and the action economy work - party of 4 has 12 actions, versus a single dude that has 3, so usually stats accommodate that to even it out. it's one of the reasons low-lvl casters suck a bit till around lvl 5-6 since they can't get over the saves reliably (and low-lvl groups don't have all the tools for (de)buffs either or know how to use them). one argument I read a few times is that fights against a single big bad feel more "epic", where my argument usually is it's not a videogame where most "bosses" sit in the last room waiting till the party clears out the trash, and usually not alone. if you consider the xp budget as a sum for a dungeon or area it gives you even more options, like combine some trash groups (depending how fast your group is with combat) or split them into lower level ones (which makes lower-level caster feel good too if they can just go ZAP MOTHAFUCKA and nuke a bunch of rats all at once with their AOE cantrips they don't get to use often and most do meh damage).
lethality comes down to the party (some suck at combat, some have the wrong combo of classes etc. - had a group without a fighter or other frontliner once, bit of a pain, but luckily only a oneshot) and GM experience and hard to put in RAW. some (AP) monsters are overtuned for example and the encounter setup itself made it harder than it should be (can't remember which one it was, I think frozen flame, but you get chased so not much time to heal up again etc.). and even a low threat encounter can be a pain in the ass depending how the dice roll #justd20things.
another trap that doesn't really get mentioned (maybe in the remaster) is lvl 3-4. pf2 works fine from level 0, but the game expects players to have to appropriate runes (which is something else I can't remember if it's mentioned explicitly, it's one of those things you know when you do somehow), the automatic bonus progression table lays it out if you don't want to bother with runes or equipment in general but what you "should" have. at level 4 players get striking runes which double their damage die, so most lvl4 monsters have the stats reflecting that. put them against a lvl3 party and it's harder than it should be. now add the first paragraph where some GMs possibly put a single lvl4 (or even lvl5) boss against a lvl3 party, and shit can get un-fun fast.
some other things that might cause issues: casters don't get "spell" runes (something people often complain about), my assumption is to keep them in line and require the rest of the group to work with them instead of being a one-man-show. depending what your groups expects, play and what they find fun you can always add that to make easier for them to overcome saves. blowing your prepared spell and constantly get fails can suck and feel like there's no real power progression - but I'd advice to slowly let them learn all the tools they have (even if it's just something simple like delay so the rest of the group can set up a trip etc), and worst case they can always use a hero point, which is something else you might wanna change and have it work more like 5e advantage than RAW - roll, fail, hero point, roll again, fails even harder, spell AND hero point blown for nothing sucks even more.
if you use the "proficiency without level" variant keep in mind you need to adjust some stuff. for some reason quite a few GMs I've seen pick that for a more "gritty" feel or because they come from 5e, and then forget to apply the adjustments for some reason. worse sometimes they don't even give out the equipment (like runes) the game expects (because again MUH GRITTY MUH LOW FANTASY) and then it gets even worse.
another thing regarding RAW, some parts of APs are written with a certain XP progression in mind, so they got lot of filler and possibly harder encounters simply to fill that XP quota. if you use milestone leveling you can cut/revamp quite a bit of that to make things go faster, both in terms of encounters and amount of sessions (or just fudge the xp you give out).
TLDR: apply the rules, they usually work, then apply flavor as needed.
EDIT: another thing you can do and @Ghostse reminded me off: just give them an (and extra) animal companion or henchman they can control (if they want to since it's a bit more work for them), which you can fudge easier. like have command animal grand 3 actions (but then limit the amount how often you can command to not get it out of hand) or buff the companion etc. by giving him more intelligence so they can "act" smarter on their own for example.
bonus points if inject a beastmaster marathon beforehand.
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- Joined
- Jun 4, 2018
I made the mistake of letting a player pick a flying race once. Welp, mark that one down as 'do not do that again'. Yes, I know, 'big honking pteradactyl might eat you'. Problem was, this player wasn't rock fucking stupid. They stuck to the treeline, scouted ahead, didn't overextend and had the skill ranks to back it up.
Honestly, it did give a little more challenge, but I firmly disallowed 'flying PC races' the next game.
Honestly, it did give a little more challenge, but I firmly disallowed 'flying PC races' the next game.
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2017
Honestly, you should just take into account that a character can fly and all the logical ways that people (or creatures) in this world would compensate for that.
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2022
Had our best pun derailment ever tonight. The party has discovered a sunken city (affectionately referred to as The Underwater City of Atlanta) which has a quasi-slave caste of non-sapient anthropomorphic fishes and crustaceans that are effectively biological constructs, made from organic material. Some of them are made from the bodies of prisoners sentenced to death.
Player 1: "Hey, [GM], if these things are crustaceans, and they use this as a means of executing people-"
GM (seeing where this is going): "Choose your next words very carefully."
Player 1: "-does it constitute crabital punishment?"
Player 2: "They must have debated the moreelity of it first."
Player 3: "It's not exactly a shrimple question."
Player 2: "Indeed, it's quite clamplicated."
Player 3: "Well, they reserve it for extreme crimes, like child molluskation."
Player 1: "Hey, [GM], if these things are crustaceans, and they use this as a means of executing people-"
GM (seeing where this is going): "Choose your next words very carefully."
Player 1: "-does it constitute crabital punishment?"
Player 2: "They must have debated the moreelity of it first."
Player 3: "It's not exactly a shrimple question."
Player 2: "Indeed, it's quite clamplicated."
Player 3: "Well, they reserve it for extreme crimes, like child molluskation."
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2021
You should have smote him with your shoe, this would have put the fear of Allah in him and corrected his homosexual behavior.
Agent of Z.O.G.
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2016
That feeling when the whiny guy leaves on his own before you get in contact with the racist bodybuilders in his area in order to stage an intervention.
Although honestly the worst kind of player is the guy who's just kinda meh but you're not playing DnD so you didn't have a massive player pool to draw from and it would be awkward to try booting them now that it's been a dozen sessions.
Although honestly the worst kind of player is the guy who's just kinda meh but you're not playing DnD so you didn't have a massive player pool to draw from and it would be awkward to try booting them now that it's been a dozen sessions.
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2020
Sometimes it's just too much work. Yes, GMs are supposed to account for everything, but your players having limited ways to traverse the Z-axis makes it a lot easier to design challenges and scenarios for the players. There's a reason the bottom falls off XCOM games difficulty-wise once you unlock flying armors, after all. Flight is just that damn powerful a mechanic. And since the GM is supposed to be having fun as well if they don't want to have to deal with that they're perfectly justified in banning flying races, or even flight spells if they don't fit the setting.
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2021
There is a reason why, beyond just graft, nations spend so much money on their air forces.
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- Joined
- Jun 23, 2015
That feeling when the whiny guy leaves on his own before you get in contact with the racist bodybuilders in his area in order to stage an intervention.
Although honestly the worst kind of player is the guy who's just kinda meh but you're not playing DnD so you didn't have a massive player pool to draw from and it would be awkward to try booting them now that it's been a dozen sessions.
Every RPG player has at least two of:
- Emotionally unstable
- Autism/ADHD
- Genderspecial
- Creepy incel
- Sexual degenerate
- Edgelord neckbeard
- Ultraviolent murderhobo
- Hyper-competitive loot goblin
- Main Character Syndrome
- Mentally checked out/doesn’t really want to be there
A lot of players don't actually want to play. They want a place with guaranteed free socialization and D&D just happens to be what they use to fill this need. Yet they never realize that the things described above which have gotten them excluded from all other social venues renders them unsuitable for this type of social interaction too.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2019
If my only chance at socializing was by playing D&D, I would fucking kill myself.
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2018
I have the same rule with small familiars.
I had a PC rogue who had a spider familiar (I forget the specific build). Not a giant spider, just a regular, bog standard house spider. He used that to fuck over almost any scenario in clever ways. Ambush? Spotted because he sent the spider under the door. Social encounter? Would send the bugger into areas I hadn't planned out, and use it to eavesdrop on conversations. Need to tail a shadowy figure through town? He's hide it on the guy and tail them that way. Need a combination for a safe? Have the spider sit there and look through it's eyes whenever someone came close. All kinds of stuff. I couldn't really punish him because he was playing well and in character.
On typing this, I realise I should have had it get into fights with pets and other insects, but I didn't think of that at the time.
This got so bad I sat him down and told him it was messing my game up. We came up with a compromise that it was a tarantula so at least now I could at least roll stealth checks for his bullshit. ...except now he had a big tarantula on his shoulder that he's command to leap at people during combat. ie. Giving the rogue advantage and thus sneak attack bonus on basically any attack. I can't complain as I did it to myself, and at least it was just extra damage during combat and not skipping encounters outright.
As for flying. The same player had a raven familiar in another game (I wasn't DMing that one) and he was pulling much of the same bullshit you guys had with flying PCs.
TL:DR Familiars smaller than a cat are banned in my games.
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2018
Yeah, while a familiar is vulnerable, if you have a PC that can communicate with it meaningfully it becomes really useful.
And worse, while in older D&D and PF editions losing a familiar could be a hit, in 5E it's little more than a nuisance.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2020
So when I have to deal with problem players I always end up thinking two ambivalent thoughts.
1. When I was a teenager, dumb and full of autism. I played mostly with a group of literal baby boomers who played AD&D 2e and I was /that guy/ to them a lot. Mostly down to my own poor mental health, home life, and lack of socialization. When they explained to me what I was doing wrong. I improved my attitude and everyone was much nicer to me as a result. Therefore there is a part of me that wants to give problem players the benefit of the doubt and explain things to them. Because I don't want players to feel like I did where they feel lost in a group and don't understand why that group is annoyed by them.
2. Being a GM can be a draining and thankless task. I put in a lot of time and effort and until recently this was unpaid too. The reason to do it is it's rewarding to see people play what you've made and to socialize with those people. And I don't think it's a big deal to ask players to be respectful of your time and effort. Which includes not playing pity party bullshit or letting your mental illness ruin my games. Because I expect adults to have some level of cognitive awareness and responsibility for themselves. So it's really annoying to have to constantly tell someone to pack in their retardation for a bit. And it is easier to just ask that player to leave for the sake of the rest of the party.
So I have these two warring parts of my mind whenever I deal with a player. I think number 2 is the more rational answer. I have to think of the rest of the party and I can't derail things for the sake of one guy who doesn't want to have fun. But I still can't help but feel a little guilty. Like maybe if I just put in a bit of effort that person would be having fun and not feeling isolated.
1. When I was a teenager, dumb and full of autism. I played mostly with a group of literal baby boomers who played AD&D 2e and I was /that guy/ to them a lot. Mostly down to my own poor mental health, home life, and lack of socialization. When they explained to me what I was doing wrong. I improved my attitude and everyone was much nicer to me as a result. Therefore there is a part of me that wants to give problem players the benefit of the doubt and explain things to them. Because I don't want players to feel like I did where they feel lost in a group and don't understand why that group is annoyed by them.
2. Being a GM can be a draining and thankless task. I put in a lot of time and effort and until recently this was unpaid too. The reason to do it is it's rewarding to see people play what you've made and to socialize with those people. And I don't think it's a big deal to ask players to be respectful of your time and effort. Which includes not playing pity party bullshit or letting your mental illness ruin my games. Because I expect adults to have some level of cognitive awareness and responsibility for themselves. So it's really annoying to have to constantly tell someone to pack in their retardation for a bit. And it is easier to just ask that player to leave for the sake of the rest of the party.
So I have these two warring parts of my mind whenever I deal with a player. I think number 2 is the more rational answer. I have to think of the rest of the party and I can't derail things for the sake of one guy who doesn't want to have fun. But I still can't help but feel a little guilty. Like maybe if I just put in a bit of effort that person would be having fun and not feeling isolated.
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2021
It sounds like this is 5e, where familiars are supposed to have 1 hit point. I kill a lot of familiars. I'm fine with familiars, but there is a pseudo-rule that if you push it too far, it's gonna get squished.
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2014
It seems like you could penalize annoying but flimsy familiars by forcing whatever magic using class has them to bind by permanently giving a hit point to them for every hit point they had. If someone swats the tarantula, that's just gone. So it wouldn't prohibit it but it would attach a cost to it that would be an incentive not to send them into danger.
2e had a system where while find familiar was a first level spell generally done by starting out wizards, it was also a lengthy and time-consuming process. You couldn't just snap your fingers and get one.
Also if they died, you'd have to roll a system shock check or die, and lose 1 CON permanently even if you succeeded. That's a pretty strong discouragement to mess around with flimsy familiars and many would choose not to have them. Think of them as a really weak NPC that you're on an escort quest for the rest of your life plus there are penalties for them dying.
robobobo
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2014
Fair is fair, I certainly think if someone's being a turbo autist in a game the group or DM or whatever ought to actually tell them what they're doing wrong and not just give them the boot one day with no heads-up. But if they're bound and determined to be a consistent problem, better off jettisoning them and finding a new player to take the seat.