Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[Corn Flakes]

I disagree with the thread saying that characters in CoC need to end up dead or insane. That doesn't make for a good game, and ever since I started reading Lovecraft, a surprising amount of stories have the main character eek out some kind of victory. As someone said earlier, the "everyone needs to end up dead or insane" comes from people who never read the stories and are going off reputation.

Even in Lovecraft's most well-known stories you usually have at least one character surviving with their sanity mostly intact. They're often traumatized in some way, but they're not gibbering maniacs by the end of the ordeal. Off the top of my head, At the Mountains of Madness ends with the professor and his assistant alive, and none of the professors from The Dunwich horror go down either.

IMO, the point is that even when the main characters win, they don't know how big or small their victory was. They know they did something, and it somehow resolved the crisis they were involved in, but that's it. The feeling of not really knowing what's going on beyond often conflicting theories is more important than the lethality itself. Which is why I don't like it when people write stories where plot-initiating devices like the Necronomicon or other "ancient texts" are somehow always 100% correct and give the characters perfect knowledge of the situation. There should be curveballs and situations that test the characters' resourcefulness, because they aren't beating the challenge with combat power alone.

I also think there's space for Lovecraftian horror with an action hero or even fantasy bent. Most of Lovecrafts popular monsters are stated and are canon in many settings. There was a great Counter Monkey episode about how Cthulhu goes with anything.

Demons in one of my GM's settings operate like Lovecraftian entities. They're beyond human comprehension and they know it, so they operate through dreams and possessed proxies to influence mortals. Whenever they do push something into the material world, things go to hell in a handbasket very quickly.

 

[Mr.Miyagi]

You can have have CoC game where the players win. You just leave it unanswered if what they did actually worked or even explain how they were able to defeat the eldtrich creatures.

Right, absolutely. I think I worded my post a bit poorly. I didn't mean to imply that you have to have all your players die and get a downer ending in CoC. I think it's more likely, in comparison to stuff like contemporary D&D, that you have a PC get killed off (and you probably don't want them coming back, ala Pet Sematary.) But that doesn't mean every adventure ends in a TPK or that you can't be heroic just because you can't kill unkillable Cthulhu (despite what the original podcast guy says). In long running campaigns or when dealing with more serious threats, I think it's more likely to happen, but it's not a guaranteed thing.

Sorry if I came off as presenting CoC as different than how it really is. That wasn't my intention.

 

[Ghostse]

I think a lot of the "Its CoC and by the end everyone needs to be dead or insane, and ideally both" is just bantz like the lethality of PF or "the party questioned one of my rulings so I murdered everyone their characters cared about next session" or w/e.
That said, probably not a bad idea to make sure any CoC newbies who are here or lurking know that its not how a game should be ACTUALLY be run.

As others have said, the actual Lovecraft stories are pretty low on lethality.

Also I'd point out that most of the time while the thing a Cthulhu protagonist is trying to prevent is Eldritch, what they are actually fighting is usually significantly more mortal. Cultists, mutants/ghouls, etc. So its possible to at the very least ventilate some mad arabs and kick the ball down the road another thousand years.

If they exist at all. I believe I've mentioned 'phantom demographics' before. A lot of these idiots are making marketing decisions based on social media, which... tends to distort things.

I mean they exist. there's like 12 of them. They just make a million tweets a month.

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

Unknown Armies has a much better system for simulating increasing mental issues anyways. It might be worthwhile to kitbash that into CoC.

 

[AnOminous]

Last time I ran CoC, all of the players made characters with near zero research / academic / lore skills. No literature, no history, barely any science. One had a decently high EDU so could sometimes get away with more generic knowledge rolls.

I had a weird blend of characters where some of them were literal gangsters who managed to tangle with a cult during their criminal activities and decided they had to deal with this shit even if they'd rather just make money, and the rest were a bunch of nerds. It was a good blend because the gangsters were good at getting rid of cultists (an SMG isn't really doing shit to a shoggoth though) while the nerds handled the lore stuff.

The only real problem with the team is the gangsters had a bad habit of killing necessary NPCs too soon.

CoC can be pretty fun with a team with some firepower, even though it's generally only useful against the human enemies.

By the end of my RPG career I mainly ran Chaosium games with the great percentile-based system they had.

That said, probably not a bad idea to make sure any CoC newbies who are here or lurking know that its not how a game should be ACTUALLY be run.

That said, you can't be too forgiving. The team I just mentioned had a good deal of longevity, but they either retired or went insane. There was no good ending for anyone, even the ones who'd survived literal years in game time and irl time, other than the few who realized those remaining SAN points were just one failed roll from madness.

As you point out, a lot of the real enemies in CoC are humans, and humans are fairly easily killed. After a few unpleasant experiences, everyone learned that no, you don't just charge a Great Old One with a Thompson SMG, even if you have one.

While even CoC shouldn't just be instadeath where no characters last for more than a few minutes, it really should have more significant lethality than games like AD&D where if you play it right your 4HP level 1 wizard is probably going to end up a legendary archmage.

So I would never hesitate to kill a character in CoC or even go for a TPK if that's what the dice and the rules said. (Generally the next party would be law enforcement or PIs hired to figure out why some horrifying massacre happened.)

Which is why I don't like it when people write stories where plot-initiating devices like the Necronomicon or other "ancient texts" are somehow always 100% correct and give the characters perfect knowledge of the situation.

One of my favorite things is that literally almost every spell you get in CoC other than maybe knowing the Elder Sign makes things even worse.

Once someone decided to cast Call Azathoth in a completely doomed situation and more or less instantly destroyed the world.

 

[East_Clintwood]

The Shadowrun example I heard was an NPC conned the group into bumrushing a megacorp because the group bought that the NPC was a victim of this megacorp. After their characters died due to zero planning and entering the front door of well defended site, the group argued their characters shouldn't have died because they were the heroes and doing the right thing.

So I'm a bit late replying to this because my wi-fi was down, and TOR mobile is cancer, but I wanted to touch on it.
The obvious thing is, as others have pointed out, Shadowrunners by default are not traditional heroes they're corporate mercs doing dirty jobs for money. That's not to say they can't be pure heroes but it's sufficiently far from the norm that
a)There's an in universe term for that sort of running, known as "hooding" (as in Robin Hood)
b)There's a specific supplement for guidance on hooding style runs

Aside from hooding it is possible for runners to be sort of morally grey, running traditional shadowruns according to a code, or for a specific purpose. A perfect example would be the main character from the early novel trilogy, Sam "Twist" Verner. He's a Renraku wageslave who falls into running after his sister goblinizes and is banished to a concentration camp on Yomi Island. Sam runs to hone his skills, and build the resources he needs to rescue and "cure" her. He does however he only takes certain types of runs that he thinks are "good".im For example the second novel opens with him performing an extraction (aka corporate kidnapping), however he's only doing it because he thinks the dude in question wants out of his contract and is being essentially held hostage by his current employer.

However long ass intro aside I think the most important factor is it doesn't even matter. It doesn't matter whether or not you're a noble runner trying to save the world from bug spirits, or a psycho blowing up orphanages on command for money to feed your novacoke habit. Hell it doesn't even matter what system you're running, the same logic applies to more traditional games where you generally are the archetypal hero like D&D. What matters is if you wilfully refuse to play the game properly, and expect DM fiat to fix everything to get the story to where you think it should be you're not playing a TTRPG, you just want an audiobook with extra steps.

 

[Overly Serious]

I'd say it's normal. The rational is that "I'm a boring nobody in real life, why would I want to play that in my escapist entertainment?". This might be why I don't mind "freakshit" races in DnD, because I almost always play dragonborn when given the option, and everybody love playing warforged.

Right, absolutely. I think I worded my post a bit poorly. I didn't mean to imply that you have to have all your players die and get a downer ending in CoC. I think it's more likely, in comparison to stuff like contemporary D&D, that you have a PC get killed off (and you probably don't want them coming back, ala Pet Sematary.) But that doesn't mean every adventure ends in a TPK or that you can't be heroic just because you can't kill unkillable Cthulhu (despite what the original podcast guy says). In long running campaigns or when dealing with more serious threats, I think it's more likely to happen, but it's not a guaranteed thing.

Sorry if I came off as presenting CoC as different than how it really is. That wasn't my intention.

My post relates to both of the above. I get a disconnect with my groups sometimes. I recall a player complaining that my games were too tough (they weren't) and I said "well the point of a game is to challenge yourself. It's not to just be an escapist fantasy" to which the player immediately responded "yes it is." To this player, that really was what it was about - escapism from real life. For me it was always about facing challenges and achieving meaningful victories. I guess in our way both of us were looking for something other than real life but for him it was about being successful, being able to beat people up, etc. For me what I wanted was something out of the ordinary and an actual contest. It's something I rarely have a problem with when I run a game for people without a background in RPGs. They behave sensibly and they don't assume the world is built just for them. Many RPG gamer types do. I don't really get it and the only explanation I can come up with for why people want it that way is sad.

So leading on to CoC, I'm not a killer GM despite whatever impression the above gives. I want them to succeed. But one thing I enjoy but most people don't or don't know how to, is Tragedy. Capital 'T' there. CoC can be very good for that. You save the world / humanity / your friend but die doing so. And quite probably humanity never knows your sacrifice as they live on in their splendid ignorance. You can have everybody die in a CoC game and it still be a victory. A great victory in fact. I'm very happy if I can participate in that as a player. That player's escapism was "I'm powerful, I've got lots of money, I've beaten people up. I'm not a loser." Mine is more "I've done something meaningful, I made a difference to people. I was tested and came through. I'm not just going through the motions of live, earn money, tick box and don't really change things." CoC appeals to me for this reason. D&D (typically) does not for the same reason.

 

[Judge Dredd]

for him it was about being successful, being able to beat people up, etc. For me what I wanted was something out of the ordinary and an actual contest.

If you just let them win, there's no joy in victory. If you just beat them down, that's not fun either since the DM holds all the cards.

I don't really get it and the only explanation I can come up with for why people want it that way is sad.

I don't like Dark Souls. I've done my time with hard games. I've played Battletoads. I'm not interested in a game where I slam my face into a wall repeatedly so I don't play games like that often. There's some games that do high tier competitive play well, but Smash Bros is not that game, and people who try to make it that are missing the point.

The same is true of DnD. Play how you like, but if you want a sweaty, skill based tactical game, there's dozens of board games and skirmish games that do that better. If you just want to collaborate on story telling, join a writers group or RP on Discord. I don't think it's an accident that thinking up character ideas is one of the most fun parts of DnD.

 

[AnOminous]

CoC appeals to me for this reason. D&D (typically) does not for the same reason.

I was generally a fairly vicious GM for CoC but incredibly generous with AD&D, to the point a couple of my campaigns more or less ended up Monty Haul.

 

[Jet Fuel Johnny]

I was generally a fairly vicious GM for CoC but incredibly generous with AD&D, to the point a couple of my campaigns more or less ended up Monty Haul.

Same here.

Wheeling death in CoC, Boot Hill, Cyberpunk, and other games.

Permissive "Let's be heroes" in Shadowrun, AD&D, Gamma World, Rifts.

Guess I"m lucky that my players usually figure it out pretty quick.

Plus, I try to adapt to my players. The world is fucking tough right now, it's fun to be someone with reality warping powers.

 

[Morethanabitfoolish]

Yes, but no.

I disagree with the thread saying that characters in CoC need to end up dead or insane. That doesn't make for a good game, and ever since I started reading Lovecraft, a surprising amount of stories have the main character eek out some kind of victory. As someone said earlier, the "everyone needs to end up dead or insane" comes from people who never read the stories and are going off reputation.

I also think there's space for Lovecraftian horror with an action hero or even fantasy bent. Most of Lovecrafts popular monsters are stated and are canon in many settings. There was a great Counter Monkey episode about how Cthulhu goes with anything.


I'd say it's normal. The rational is that "I'm a boring nobody in real life, why would I want to play that in my escapist entertainment?". This might be why I don't mind "freakshit" races in DnD, because I almost always play dragonborn when given the option, and everybody love playing warforged.

It's actually incredibly easy to survive Call of Cthullu games. The average person with basic survival instinct manages it because around the point they start hearing creepy noises in the basement of the house they ended up in rather than investigating they barricade the way down, do not investigate and do not let any PCs with the desire to do so near that part of the building. As soon as dawn rolls around they head for safety together and never look back.

As you say that can be a dull way to play but if you RP a lot every so often it is kind of fun to look the GM in the eye and tell them their damn plot is not getting poked today. One of ours had quite good fun when every bit of evidence ended up on the same pyre and as more came it just kept the burning going. Sure the aberrations from beyond felt kind of lonely because no-one was calling them into the world by looking at the images of them but the party still got a lot of fun and very paranoid roleplay when every photo was treated like an unexploded bomb.

Unknown Armies has a much better system for simulating increasing mental issues anyways. It might be worthwhile to kitbash that into CoC.

It works well.

 

[Agent of Z.O.G.]

I was watching some tg gamedevgen guy's steam and I saw something very special here's your wokefag update:

Kill Kindness​

"A TTRPG about fighting an alt-right, Christofascist government in dystopian, post-apocalyptic Florida. A Zine Quest 5 project."

In a post-apocalyptic future, under a blast dome surrounded by greening land, a fascist corporation has preserved the last city. Kill Kindness is about that bastion's destruction at your hands. Form a network of spies, overthrow the company, and kill the immortal William Keind.

Kill Kindness is two zines, one that contains the way to make characters and the rules needed for play. The second zine contains options, advice, tables, and details. Kill Kindness is a d6 dicepool game in three acts. It is a bastardised mix of Powered by the Apocalypse, Blades in the Dark, and the Resistance system, and one we have streamlined from our own Daemonologie.

The base zine will also feature compatability guides for playing with MÖRK BORG or Blades in the Dark, if you would rather stick to another system.

"126 backers pledged £1,873 to help bring this project to life. "


I'm kinda upset because I was too lazy to make Alt Right Mork Bork and now someone made the inverse.

 

[Ghostse]

"A TTRPG about fighting an alt-right, Christofascist government in dystopian, post-apocalyptic Florida. A Zine Quest 5 project."

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

On 26th September 1983, Stanislav Petrov took a day off sick. Adrei Yasukov took his place in command of the Serpukhov-15 missile silo, a tense, but mostly quiet responsibility. Shortly after 2am an early-warning sign showed five US missiles inbound and Yasukov followed protocol. In a few hours the USSR and the US had sent nuclear missiles across much of the world.

Oh my god you illiterate faggots kill yourselves. At least read about the history you are butching for your political messaging.

Petrov was only the first link the chain. He had about 5 more layers of bureaucracy to go through before he could launch. Petrov wasn't some activist maverick peacenik faggot like you guys want him to be. In his own words "There was no provokations going on, no reason the US would launch an strike, and one that was only a single missile. I decided it was a false alarm. I called my supervisor and he agreed."
That is, even if the other guy had been on shift and wanted to launch, the never level supervisor would likely have prevented it from escalating further.

I mean the rest is terrible but I fucking hate this shit because I have to keep correcting useful idiots still indoctrinated by Soviet propaganda.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

I was watching some tg gamedevgen guy's steam and I saw something very special here's your wokefag update:

Kill Kindness​

"A TTRPG about fighting an alt-right, Christofascist government in dystopian, post-apocalyptic Florida. A Zine Quest 5 project."



"126 backers pledged £1,873 to help bring this project to life. "


I'm kinda upset because I was too lazy to make Alt Right Mork Bork and now someone made the inverse.

I don't get it, is there only one city left on the planet and a group of leftists want to tear it down and probably cause the extinction of the human race because it doesn't respect their pronouns? Why doesn't the government let the faggots leave and die when none of them are knowledgeable about food production?

 

[2LtMashengo]

"A TTRPG about fighting an alt-right, Christofascist government in dystopian, post-apocalyptic Florida. A Zine Quest 5 project."

Racist Epcot sounds pretty cool.

 

[cassowary lover]

"A TTRPG about fighting an alt-right, Christofascist government in dystopian, post-apocalyptic Florida. A Zine Quest 5 project."

Isn't this one of those "RaHoWa but for commies." type game/kickstarters?

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

I don't get it, is there only one city left on the planet and a group of leftists want to tear it down and probably cause the extinction of the human race because it doesn't respect their pronouns? Why doesn't the government let the faggots leave and die when none of them are knowledgeable about food production?

I admit the premise says volumes about them personally. Holy shit. Nihilistic lunatics with the mask off.

 

[Jet Fuel Johnny]

Someone on Tumblr actually did something kind of cool for gaming.

I present: Various PC types as undead. (The last one is fairly obvious and "DUH", which the artist noted)























Fun thing is, you could use this in case of a mid to high level TPK to keep it going, but make it a bit interesting and different.

 

[Martys_not_smarty]

those are pretty neat, reminds me of a character idea I had for mutant crawl classics; a plantient treefolk who before sentience was used in hangings and gained sentience through the life force of one of the hanged who serves as a sort of marionette to the tree acting as it's mouthpiece.

 

[ZMOT]

I don't get it, is there only one city left on the planet and a group of leftists want to tear it down and probably cause the extinction of the human race because it doesn't respect their pronouns? Why doesn't the government let the faggots leave and die when none of them are knowledgeable about food production?

wishful thinking and zero life experience. in a situation like that people themselves would just throw them off the wall for being dead weight, if not an outright danger to the community at large.
same way they think a full blown cyberpunk dystopia would be great for "personal expression" and other 1st world retardation.

Someone on Tumblr actually did something kind of cool for gaming.

I present: Various PC types as undead. (The last one is fairly obvious and "DUH", which the artist noted)

Fun thing is, you could use this in case of a mid to high level TPK to keep it going, but make it a bit interesting and different.

reminds me that PF2 has undead PCs, but also that the playerbase is fucking insufferable.

latest "drama": drow getting written out of the remaster since they're too much dnd and thus without OGL too much of a liability. reactions are mixed, but since it's reddit you have people who always thought drow were "problematic" .... for wearing blackface. no I'm not making this up.