Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[Wormy]

Sometimes they try to go the extra mile for the "simulation" aspect, such as creatures that are always on fire each lighting up a difference amount of squares as per the illumination rule, but I don't think they have ever gone into that much detail as to how much a fire protection ring will protect you against fire vs swimming in a lake of magma.

Speaking of fire the various fantasy systems are generally not that clear if magical fire can burn things the way a real fire can, how often does the scenario come up where you don't want to use a fireball because you might burn the village or the forest down?

About the closest I've ever seen was that it doesn't burn the caster and that's it, with wibbly wobbly It's Magic Fuck You logic.

 

[Jet Fuel Johnny]

how often does the scenario come up where you don't want to use a fireball because you might burn the village or the forest down?

I get that pretty often in my games.

Fighting giant insect creatures in a date orchard? No fireballs or anything like that, direct point magic only.

Of course, my players pay attention to terrain because they'll use it to their own advantage.

 

[Snekposter]

how often does the scenario come up where you don't want to use a fireball because you might burn the village or the forest down?

Maybe once or twice if you've got a smart party. But if they're really smart they'll find a way to cast fireball and keep the village intact. Really, its just one of those spells that's too good to pass up.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Maybe once or twice if you've got a smart party. But if they're really smart they'll find a way to cast fireball and keep the village intact. Really, its just one of those spells that's too good to pass up.

That's why it's fun when there are restrictions on its use and us players have to get creative with it. Sometimes the Cleric or Druid just has to play firefighter with Create/Destroy Water.

 

[Adamska]

If we're talking 3.5, you could be a gigabrained asshole and use Kelgor's Firebolt, which is a line of sight save-or-suck fire attack that at worst does half damage to the target you see. It even still does 1d6 damage on monsters with SR that you fail to match, since it kind of counts as a ranged attack too.

It gets more BS too when you apply different energy substitutions to it. My Sha'ir gets so much mileage by converting this son of a bitch into sonic damage.

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

Proving nothing is really new, this whole discussion dates back to 1E/2E. There's a pretty good article in Dragon #123, 'Fire For Effect' about it.

Suffice to say that if you apply these rules, things will get exceptionally painful for the PCs (and probably you as well, because the PCs WILL return the favor).

I particularly liked the description of what will happen to a dragon's hoard if you fireball the dragon while he's sitting on it:

If the DM allows the characters to simply scoop up the loose treasure, then he has not fully recognized nor considered the effects of the magical energy released during the battle. Reviewing the temperatures produced by a fireball, an average of about 1,600°C, it is seen that the heat is sufficient to melt copper, gold, tin, and even platinum, to some degree, as described in the table appearing later in this article. In an impure state, as would be the case with metals of a medieval society, metals melt at considerably lower temperatures perhaps as low as 100-400°C less. Silver, which has a pure-state melting point of 961°C and boils at about 2,000°C, becomes a liquid at the temperatures associated with exceptionally hot or very large and hot fires. If the heat persists for any length of time, as with a fire storm or flame strike spell, this liquid has a chance of flowing and coming in contact with other metals or objects, fusing the lot together upon cooling. Therefore, if any of these metals are present along the extreme edges of a pile of treasure and are exposed to these fires, the result is a melted, fused, and utterly deformed outer layer which, after cooling and hardening, requires a concerted effort on the part of the characters (with the appropriate tools) to chisel apart into manageable chunks.

LOL. Ouch.

 

[Mooger Meng]

Proving nothing is really new, this whole discussion dates back to 1E/2E. There's a pretty good article in Dragon #123, 'Fire For Effect' about it.

Suffice to say that if you apply these rules, things will get exceptionally painful for the PCs (and probably you as well, because the PCs WILL return the favor).

I particularly liked the description of what will happen to a dragon's hoard if you fireball the dragon while he's sitting on it:



LOL. Ouch.

Proper dragonslayers know how to use flaming blades as metal-cutting torches in a pinch.
"Oh, Pelordamnit. Savik! I told you to be careful!"
"Stuff it, Kyne, the good stuff is all in the center and we've got two week's worth of Create Food and Drink scrolls in the wagon."
"Thrice-damned wizard... Oi, new blood! Stop gawking and grab that Flametongue, this is the hard part of the job!"

 

[Snekposter]

Proper dragonslayers know how to use flaming blades as metal-cutting torches in a pinch.
"Oh, Pelordamnit. Savik! I told you to be careful!"
"Stuff it, Kyne, the good stuff is all in the center and we've got two week's worth of Create Food and Drink scrolls in the wagon."
"Thrice-damned wizard... Oi, new blood! Stop gawking and grab that Flametongue, this is the hard part of the job!"

Isn't that what Fabricate is for? The caster doesn't need to have proficiency or make a check if he just wants to suck it up into a cube. Its important to work smarter, not harder. Unless you don't want the wizard to claim a greater share of the treasure, that is.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Isn't that what Fabricate is for? The caster doesn't need to have proficiency or make a check if he just wants to suck it up into a cube. Its important to work smarter, not harder. Unless you don't want the wizard to claim a greater share of the treasure, that is.

And then the cart breaks under the weight of all the gold. That shit is heavy, yo.

 

[Snekposter]

And then the cart breaks under the weight of all the gold. That shit is heavy, yo.

Considering Tenser's Floating Disk can only hold 500 pounds and only for an hour, yeah. Gonna need a lot of those.

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

That's something that in my opinion was badly stripped out of later editions: the role of hirelings and henchmen. You simply can't DO it all by yourself, even with a full party.

Not only do hirelings make it easier to loot the hoards, henchmen provide an easy 'backup character' in the event of an unexpected PC demise.

 

[Corn Flakes]

That's something that in my opinion was badly stripped out of later editions: the role of hirelings and henchmen. You simply can't DO it all by yourself, even with a full party.

Not only do hirelings make it easier to loot the hoards, henchmen provide an easy 'backup character' in the event of an unexpected PC demise.

Even just having a cart can add a lot of flavor to a party.

Our last campaign started with my character bringing along a horse-drawn cart for flavor (merchant background), and no one really paid much attention to it until the party got through their first really difficult adventure. We were tasked with finding and wiping out a pack of gricks that had moved into this guy's mine, and we barely made it out alive. Like, half the party was on single-digits health and my cleric was running on empty by the time we were done. While sitting down to spend some HD just in case something was waiting for us outside the mine, the barbarian decided to take the grick alpha's skull as a trophy. After a few shenanigans back in town getting it cleaned up and coated in resin, he then decided to hang it on my character's cart and from then on that cart became our mobile trophy room. By the time the campaign ended we had swapped carts twice (one due to destruction, the other because we just needed more space), but the damn thing was basically a party member in and of itself.

When the GM noticed how much we referred to the cart, instead of giving everybody bags of holding like... well, most GMs seem to do these days, he made us start caring about what we were carrying on ourselves and what we had on the cart. It's hard to crawl through dungeons and fight hordes of animated skeletons with huge fucking adventurers' backpacks strapped to our backs, after all. So before we set off into danger, he always asked us what we were taking with us, and occasionally someone had to go back to the start of the dungeon to pick up some item or adventuring supplies we had left in the cart. It might sound like busywork, but it made the world feel more coherent, and the constant bickering between the rogue and the barbarian about who forgot what and who had to run back was always funny.

Another thing is that since we weren't covered in bags of holding we minded how much gold each character had on them at a time. The GM ruled that a basic pouch could only carry up to 100 coins, and that was our pocket money. Everything else got put in a locked chest in the cart, and it made for a couple of fun little random encounters while traveling where the party woke up to a bandit or a goblin trying to pick the lock or swipe something off the cart without being noticed. And the cart was also very handy when we had to ferry NPCs or captured/dead enemies around.

I don't really have an ending for this. Maybe my group is just weird, but we like these kinds of things. 10/10 cart, would recommend.

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

Even just having a cart can add a lot of flavor to a party.

Our last campaign started with my character bringing along a horse-drawn cart for flavor (merchant background), and no one really paid much attention to it until the party got through their first really difficult adventure. We were tasked with finding and wiping out a pack of gricks that had moved into this guy's mine, and we barely made it out alive. Like, half the party was on single-digits health and my cleric was running on empty by the time we were done. While sitting down to spend some HD just in case something was waiting for us outside the mine, the barbarian decided to take the grick alpha's skull as a trophy. After a few shenanigans back in town getting it cleaned up and coated in resin, he then decided to hang it on my character's cart and from then on that cart became our mobile trophy room. By the time the campaign ended we had swapped carts twice (one due to destruction, the other because we just needed more space), but the damn thing was basically a party member in and of itself.

When the GM noticed how much we referred to the cart, instead of giving everybody bags of holding like... well, most GMs seem to do these days, he made us start caring about what we were carrying on ourselves and what we had on the cart. It's hard to crawl through dungeons and fight hordes of animated skeletons with huge fucking adventurers' backpacks strapped to our backs, after all. So before we set off into danger, he always asked us what we were taking with us, and occasionally someone had to go back to the start of the dungeon to pick up some item or adventuring supplies we had left in the cart. It might sound like busywork, but it made the world feel more coherent, and the constant bickering between the rogue and the barbarian about who forgot what and who had to run back was always funny.

Another thing is that since we weren't covered in bags of holding we minded how much gold each character had on them at a time. The GM ruled that a basic pouch could only carry up to 100 coins, and that was our pocket money. Everything else got put in a locked chest in the cart, and it made for a couple of fun little random encounters while traveling where the party woke up to a bandit or a goblin trying to pick the lock or swipe something off the cart without being noticed. And the cart was also very handy when we had to ferry NPCs or captured/dead enemies around.

I don't really have an ending for this. Maybe my group is just weird, but we like these kinds of things. 10/10 cart, would recommend.

I might work on slotting that into my campaign, though right now the poor fuckers are on the Isle of Dread. Not good cart territory.

They do have a base of operations to work from (they helped establish a trading post there) and a couple hirelings, so they have someone to guard material they leave back at base. The native villagers generally get along with them as well.

 

[Wormy]

That's something that in my opinion was badly stripped out of later editions: the role of hirelings and henchmen. You simply can't DO it all by yourself, even with a full party.

Not only do hirelings make it easier to loot the hoards, henchmen provide an easy 'backup character' in the event of an unexpected PC demise.

Also, I say it's just plain fun to actually have an estate or a staff. Gives a real sense of success and accomplishment that just a Level number can't. Can't tell you how great it felt when I had a longtime classic knight style Fighter finally finished his lighthouse keep over the course of a campaign.

 

[Snekposter]

Even just having a cart can add a lot of flavor to a party.

Our last campaign started with my character bringing along a horse-drawn cart for flavor (merchant background), and no one really paid much attention to it until the party got through their first really difficult adventure. We were tasked with finding and wiping out a pack of gricks that had moved into this guy's mine, and we barely made it out alive. Like, half the party was on single-digits health and my cleric was running on empty by the time we were done. While sitting down to spend some HD just in case something was waiting for us outside the mine, the barbarian decided to take the grick alpha's skull as a trophy. After a few shenanigans back in town getting it cleaned up and coated in resin, he then decided to hang it on my character's cart and from then on that cart became our mobile trophy room. By the time the campaign ended we had swapped carts twice (one due to destruction, the other because we just needed more space), but the damn thing was basically a party member in and of itself.

When the GM noticed how much we referred to the cart, instead of giving everybody bags of holding like... well, most GMs seem to do these days, he made us start caring about what we were carrying on ourselves and what we had on the cart. It's hard to crawl through dungeons and fight hordes of animated skeletons with huge fucking adventurers' backpacks strapped to our backs, after all. So before we set off into danger, he always asked us what we were taking with us, and occasionally someone had to go back to the start of the dungeon to pick up some item or adventuring supplies we had left in the cart. It might sound like busywork, but it made the world feel more coherent, and the constant bickering between the rogue and the barbarian about who forgot what and who had to run back was always funny.

Another thing is that since we weren't covered in bags of holding we minded how much gold each character had on them at a time. The GM ruled that a basic pouch could only carry up to 100 coins, and that was our pocket money. Everything else got put in a locked chest in the cart, and it made for a couple of fun little random encounters while traveling where the party woke up to a bandit or a goblin trying to pick the lock or swipe something off the cart without being noticed. And the cart was also very handy when we had to ferry NPCs or captured/dead enemies around.

I don't really have an ending for this. Maybe my group is just weird, but we like these kinds of things. 10/10 cart, would recommend.

Agreed on that. Sadly none of my games have lasted long enough to have something organic like that cart happen, but having something that's home does a lot to make murderhobos into people. One of my characters had a house that was the party's home away from their main hub when they were up to shenanigans in the big city. Thank God it was only a two-bedroom apartment otherwise the rest of the party members would inevitably act like it had a sign on the door labeled "Dead NPC Storage". Bit hard to sneak dead bodies up a few floors with nobody asking questions, even when you're in the seedy part of town.

 

[Wormy]

"Dead NPC Storage".

"Let me ask you something; when you came riding up here, did you see the sign in the front of my house that said Dead NPC Storage?"
"You know I didn't see no sign..."
"DID YOU SEE THE SIGN IN FRONT OF MY HOUSE THAT SAID DEAD NPC STORAGE?! You didn't, because it isn't there, because storing dead NPC's isn't my fucking business!"

 

[Snekposter]

View attachment 2892848
"Let me ask you something; when you came riding up here, did you see the sign in the front of my house that said Dead NPC Storage?"
"You know I didn't see no sign..."
"DID YOU SEE THE SIGN IN FRONT OF MY HOUSE THAT SAID DEAD NPC STORAGE?! You didn't, because it isn't there, because storing dead NPC's isn't my fucking business!"

Pretty much. What's really funny/sad is I have a Shadowrun character that's a 60-year-old semi-retired elf who lives in the good part of town and runs because everyone needs a hobby, and I guarantee you he'd need to deal with the rest of the party dragging a dead ork or troll to his front door sooner or later.
"Let me ask you something; when you came riding up here, did you see the sign in the front of my house that said Dead Uruk Storage?"
"You know I didn't see no sign..."
"DID YOU SEE THE SIGN IN FRONT OF MY HOUSE THAT SAID DEAD URUK STORAGE?! You didn't, because it isn't there, because storing dead Uruks isn't my fucking business!"
...
"Mmm, you know this soycaf's some good shit."
"Its actually an Amazonian blend."
"Imported soycaf from Amazonia? Fancy."
>MFW I debate the DV of my kitchen knives

 

[Ghostse]

Also, I say it's just plain fun to actually have an estate or a staff. Gives a real sense of success and accomplishment that just a Level number can't. Can't tell you how great it felt when I had a longtime classic knight style Fighter finally finished his lighthouse keep over the course of a campaign.

Problem with having an estate/staff is you need the right sort of player/character to entrust with power over NPCs. You have to find people who actually want to play the game and not make the DM's life difficult.

Going back to my endless bitching about what modern books are teaching players, the minute they have power a good majority of players lose their minds and power mad to be "wacky"; they never think about actually being good stewards. And that's because they are raised on a diet of breaking into people's houses and smashing the pottery because they are the hero. They don't want to have to deal with issues on running their estate, the estate is only a resource to be used to break the game economics.

 

[Corn Flakes]

I might work on slotting that into my campaign, though right now the poor fuckers are on the Isle of Dread. Not good cart territory.

They do have a base of operations to work from (they helped establish a trading post there) and a couple hirelings, so they have someone to guard material they leave back at base. The native villagers generally get along with them as well.

I've got a Valheim-inspired Norse fantasy campaign in the planning stages, with plenty of island hopping between adventures. You can bet your ass I'll give the party a small ship to serve as their mobile base of operations.

 

[Adamska]

That's something that in my opinion was badly stripped out of later editions: the role of hirelings and henchmen. You simply can't DO it all by yourself, even with a full party.

Not only do hirelings make it easier to loot the hoards, henchmen provide an easy 'backup character' in the event of an unexpected PC demise.

Oh no, I actually understand WHY they removed the hirelings you'd naturally get. In the case of guards and mooks, they'd clutter up the turn order and it relies on the players actually being kind of prompt with their orders.

I know of a dude who took a fucking half hour to try and figure out exactly where to move his shitty skeletons at level 10 or some level like that. They were destroyed instantly since they were shit undead for that level.

Problem with having an estate/staff is you need the right sort of player/character to entrust with power over NPCs. You have to find people who actually want to play the game and not make the DM's life difficult.

Going back to my endless bitching about what modern books are teaching players, the minute they have power a good majority of players lose their minds and power mad to be "wacky"; they never think about actually being good stewards. And that's because they are raised on a diet of breaking into people's houses and smashing the pottery because they are the hero. They don't want to have to deal with issues on running their estate, the estate is only a resource to be used to break the game economics.

This too, since they always forget you're supposed to manage an estate to some degree. They also forget that hirelings or henchmen are only loyal to a point; if they're in arrears or treated like shit, they will leave.