Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

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Either corporate "cleaners", local cops that are in over their heads, and private security are all character concepts that could double as campaign ideas I've played with in my head, but I lack a regular group, and I don't feel like getting screeched at by randos off the internet. I get a big draw is trying to be a spanner in the works for "le big Shinra Corp" stand-in, but they're hardly the only opposition you can find in Shadowrun.

Honestly, they're the perfect patsies for a smart Corpo Johnson. From false flags to just being plain disposable, throwing them at a meat grinder "business rival" to see what their security measures are. Sadly they aren't long for the world, but you can always find replacements.
It does make me wonder what a good role would be to play against the wokies, personally; given how they have both Corpos and Shadowrunners, that doesn't leave all that many options. I'd like to play a Humanis member, it anything; given how prevalent the Night of Rage is among some of SR's left-leaning crowd, and the fact that I've seen humans get demonized enough in Shadowrun stories in general, it certainly seems like an interesting option.
 
It's a shame Dungeons and Dragons is literally the only Tabletop game that exists.

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It's a shame Dungeons and Dragons is literally the only Tabletop game that exists.

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Source (Archive)
What really hurts is that even in just "Dee an' dee" there are scifi settings. Wasn't Spelljammer being talked about recently (before the "orcs lives matters" idiots chimping out about flying space monkeys drowned it in a muddy curb)? Wikipedia isn't so hard to work with.
 
I have a bit of a problem with my current campaign, and I'd appreciate some advice on how best to approach it.
So I've been playing a campaign with some friends from high school for a few months now, and for the most part things are going fine, aside from my lawful neutral wizard slowly losing his sanity as his party of chaotics causes as much turmoil as they seemingly can. I do have a few quibbles with the campaign and how it's kind of meandering without a whole lot of direction, but my biggest issue at the moment is with regards to loot.

As it stands, there haven't been a lot of opportunities to actually get a lot of rewards. Ever since the campaign took a hard left turn, there has been some exploration without any real payoff, and a lot of combat that never really relented (it took us two sessions and at least a day of in-game time to actually reach a point where we could long rest again), again without much payoff. And what little reward there is is almost immediately sucked up by the rogue character who started chaotic good but somehow became chaotic evil, possibly through retconning. At the end of every encounter, he'll loot all the bodies, as well as take anything that isn't nailed down before anyone else has a chance to take a look themselves, and none of this ends up shared with the party.

I pretty much reached my limit in the session before last when the rogue went and blew nearly a thousand gold on mithril armor and still had nearly a grand left over. And then, as if adding insult to injury, he tossed a couple gold at the dead bodies of some elves we killed "to pay the ferryman." Meanwhile, my wizard didn't even have fifty to his name, and it had been weeks since the last time I actually made some money. Before you ask, it's not because I'm the stereotypical wizard that blows all his gold on spells and components and whatnot (doesn't help we haven't actually gone to a major city long enough to shop yet); the only major expense I did was changing my subclass, and that took up nearly all of my gold on hand along with a single piece of treasure I had.
So I guess my question is, what's the best way to handle this? Leaving the table isn't an option because they're all my friends and it's solely an in-game problem, and I'm not so autistic that I'd throw in the towel over something comparatively minor. I don't really want to tell someone they're playing their own character wrong, but when their actions are dampening my experience, does that make it okay to bring up? I also don't know if anyone else is having an issue with this or if it's just me. Is it up to the DM to add in more rewards for the whole party to remove the issue? Should I raise my concerns with the DM, or with the player?
 
I have a bit of a problem with my current campaign, and I'd appreciate some advice on how best to approach it.
So I've been playing a campaign with some friends from high school for a few months now, and for the most part things are going fine, aside from my lawful neutral wizard slowly losing his sanity as his party of chaotics causes as much turmoil as they seemingly can. I do have a few quibbles with the campaign and how it's kind of meandering without a whole lot of direction, but my biggest issue at the moment is with regards to loot.

As it stands, there haven't been a lot of opportunities to actually get a lot of rewards. Ever since the campaign took a hard left turn, there has been some exploration without any real payoff, and a lot of combat that never really relented (it took us two sessions and at least a day of in-game time to actually reach a point where we could long rest again), again without much payoff. And what little reward there is is almost immediately sucked up by the rogue character who started chaotic good but somehow became chaotic evil, possibly through retconning. At the end of every encounter, he'll loot all the bodies, as well as take anything that isn't nailed down before anyone else has a chance to take a look themselves, and none of this ends up shared with the party.

I pretty much reached my limit in the session before last when the rogue went and blew nearly a thousand gold on mithril armor and still had nearly a grand left over. And then, as if adding insult to injury, he tossed a couple gold at the dead bodies of some elves we killed "to pay the ferryman." Meanwhile, my wizard didn't even have fifty to his name, and it had been weeks since the last time I actually made some money. Before you ask, it's not because I'm the stereotypical wizard that blows all his gold on spells and components and whatnot (doesn't help we haven't actually gone to a major city long enough to shop yet); the only major expense I did was changing my subclass, and that took up nearly all of my gold on hand along with a single piece of treasure I had.
So I guess my question is, what's the best way to handle this? Leaving the table isn't an option because they're all my friends and it's solely an in-game problem, and I'm not so autistic that I'd throw in the towel over something comparatively minor. I don't really want to tell someone they're playing their own character wrong, but when their actions are dampening my experience, does that make it okay to bring up? I also don't know if anyone else is having an issue with this or if it's just me. Is it up to the DM to add in more rewards for the whole party to remove the issue? Should I raise my concerns with the DM, or with the player?
Either the GM needs to start distributing more loot, or your character needs to threaten the rogue with a fireball up the ass if he doesn't start sharing.

Or both.

If it's an ingame issue, where a character has a good reason to be angry at another character, let that character be angry at them. Like, warn the player that it's going to happen so they don't take it seriously, if you like. But if your Wizard is having issues buying his guano and sulfur while the Rogue has got enough to consider 50GP spare change, then your Wizard has every reason to demand a fair share of the loot.

I'm surprised the other players aren't saying anything, though. Have you talked to them yet? It's a lot easier to get change to stick when you have the rest of the party backing you up, both in and out of game.
 
I have a bit of a problem with my current campaign, and I'd appreciate some advice on how best to approach it.
So I've been playing a campaign with some friends from high school for a few months now, and for the most part things are going fine, aside from my lawful neutral wizard slowly losing his sanity as his party of chaotics causes as much turmoil as they seemingly can. I do have a few quibbles with the campaign and how it's kind of meandering without a whole lot of direction, but my biggest issue at the moment is with regards to loot.

As it stands, there haven't been a lot of opportunities to actually get a lot of rewards. Ever since the campaign took a hard left turn, there has been some exploration without any real payoff, and a lot of combat that never really relented (it took us two sessions and at least a day of in-game time to actually reach a point where we could long rest again), again without much payoff. And what little reward there is is almost immediately sucked up by the rogue character who started chaotic good but somehow became chaotic evil, possibly through retconning. At the end of every encounter, he'll loot all the bodies, as well as take anything that isn't nailed down before anyone else has a chance to take a look themselves, and none of this ends up shared with the party.

I pretty much reached my limit in the session before last when the rogue went and blew nearly a thousand gold on mithril armor and still had nearly a grand left over. And then, as if adding insult to injury, he tossed a couple gold at the dead bodies of some elves we killed "to pay the ferryman." Meanwhile, my wizard didn't even have fifty to his name, and it had been weeks since the last time I actually made some money. Before you ask, it's not because I'm the stereotypical wizard that blows all his gold on spells and components and whatnot (doesn't help we haven't actually gone to a major city long enough to shop yet); the only major expense I did was changing my subclass, and that took up nearly all of my gold on hand along with a single piece of treasure I had.
So I guess my question is, what's the best way to handle this? Leaving the table isn't an option because they're all my friends and it's solely an in-game problem, and I'm not so autistic that I'd throw in the towel over something comparatively minor. I don't really want to tell someone they're playing their own character wrong, but when their actions are dampening my experience, does that make it okay to bring up? I also don't know if anyone else is having an issue with this or if it's just me. Is it up to the DM to add in more rewards for the whole party to remove the issue? Should I raise my concerns with the DM, or with the player?

There's an unwritten house rule that many DMs play with you might call, Speak Fast, Move Fast. How DMs who play with this unwritten rule run the game:

DM: The final orc slumps to the floor as the Fighter relieves his head from his shoulders. You notice...
Rogue: I LOOT ALL THE BODIES AND THE CHEST IN THE CORNER
DM: Well, golly gosh, guess that means you get the treasure.

Except, that's not actually the rule. The rule is that table time isn't game time. Speaking super fast and interrupting everyone doesn't mean your character becomes The Flash and is able to loot a dozen orc corpses and a treasure chest before the Fighter can sheathe his sword. Speaking rapid-fire and interrupting people does not actually mean your character is able to stuff his pockets with gold from a treasure chest so fast that nobody can see his hands. So first, talk to your DM, tell him to stop playing as speaking fast = acting first. Insist that when the rogue interrupts to quickly announce he grabs all the treasure, that the DM give everyone in the party a chance to say what they do as they notice the rogue, once again, head over to a slain orc with dollar signs in his eyes.

Here's how you actually are supposed to run the game:

DM: The final orc slumps to the floor as the Fighter relieves his head from his shoulders. You notice...
Rogue: I LOOT ALL THE BODIES AND THE CHEST IN THE CORNER
DM: Excuse me, you will have your chance to declare your actions after I finish the description, and I guess I need to remind you that saying you loot all the bodies doesn't mean you actually move at light speed and do it. Anyway, You notice one of the orcs has a curious tattoo above his eye...

If your DM says that he thinks it's more fun to run it with the Speak Fast, Move Fast rule, then you and your friends need to tell the rogue to stop being a fucking faggot, or he's not invited to game night any more.
 
Either the GM needs to start distributing more loot, or your character needs to threaten the rogue with a fireball up the ass if he doesn't start sharing.

Or both.

If it's an ingame issue, where a character has a good reason to be angry at another character, let that character be angry at them. Like, warn the player that it's going to happen so they don't take it seriously, if you like. But if your Wizard is having issues buying his guano and sulfur while the Rogue has got enough to consider 50GP spare change, then your Wizard has every reason to demand a fair share of the loot.

I'm surprised the other players aren't saying anything, though. Have you talked to them yet? It's a lot easier to get change to stick when you have the rest of the party backing you up, both in and out of game.
There's an unwritten house rule that many DMs play with you might call, Speak Fast, Move Fast. How DMs who play with this unwritten rule run the game:

DM: The final orc slumps to the floor as the Fighter relieves his head from his shoulders. You notice...
Rogue: I LOOT ALL THE BODIES AND THE CHEST IN THE CORNER
DM: Well, golly gosh, guess that means you get the treasure.

Except, that's not actually the rule. The rule is that table time isn't game time. Speaking super fast and interrupting everyone doesn't mean your character becomes The Flash and is able to loot a dozen orc corpses and a treasure chest before the Fighter can sheathe his sword. Speaking rapid-fire and interrupting people does not actually mean your character is able to stuff his pockets with gold from a treasure chest so fast that nobody can see his hands. So first, talk to your DM, tell him to stop playing as speaking fast = acting first. Insist that when the rogue interrupts to quickly announce he grabs all the treasure, that the DM give everyone in the party a chance to say what they do as they notice the rogue, once again, head over to a slain orc with dollar signs in his eyes.

Here's how you actually are supposed to run the game:

DM: The final orc slumps to the floor as the Fighter relieves his head from his shoulders. You notice...
Rogue: I LOOT ALL THE BODIES AND THE CHEST IN THE CORNER
DM: Excuse me, you will have your chance to declare your actions after I finish the description, and I guess I need to remind you that saying you loot all the bodies doesn't mean you actually move at light speed and do it. Anyway, You notice one of the orcs has a curious tattoo above his eye...

If your DM says that he thinks it's more fun to run it with the Speak Fast, Move Fast rule, then you and your friends need to tell the rogue to stop being a fucking faggot, or he's not invited to game night any more.
Well I can't uninvite him because we're playing at his house (small children make it difficult for us to meet anywhere else), but thanks for the advice. I'll have a chat with my DM first and see what he thinks, and depending on how that goes, I'll talk with the rest of the group. We're all good friends so it's not like we can't work this out without trading blows. It might resolve itself anyway, the rogue player's getting kind of bored with his character and might reroll.

Or maybe I'll just fireball his ass. It's already happened before (accidentally, I swear).
 
So my first Pathfinder game went good. I was wrong about one character. It was a male Goblin, not a female shortstack. I assumed female because it's a female player.
There is some party issues already because the female elf cleric healed the female orc barbarian by slapping Her. Twice. I think I can straighten it out in game.
Oh please, slapping people is just how orcs say hello.
It does make me wonder what a good role would be to play against the wokies, personally; given how they have both Corpos and Shadowrunners, that doesn't leave all that many options. I'd like to play a Humanis member, it anything; given how prevalent the Night of Rage is among some of SR's left-leaning crowd, and the fact that I've seen humans get demonized enough in Shadowrun stories in general, it certainly seems like an interesting option.
So, hold up. A single night in 2039 that logically speaking most Shadowrunners wouldn't even be alive for given how quickly that profession either kills or retires its practitioners is a major focus of modern-day players? For fuck's sake its 2079 in Shadowrun. Any Shadowrunner who was alive for that is dead or retired since they would be 40 years old at minimum, with the crop of 17-20-year-olds entering the profession only knowing about it as something their parents talked about.

Random aside, but I find it hard not to sympathize at least in part with Alamos 20,000 given the body count the Great Ghost Dance had. Especially if one of their members is a pissed off opponent of Howling Coyote's who didn't want the Ghost Dance used for destructive means. From my understanding all of the seriously fucked up mana the Ghost Dance caused with the massive body count was intended by some people to make it easier to tear open an astral rift and let the Horrors in.
 
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So, hold up. A single night in 2039 that logically speaking most Shadowrunners wouldn't even be alive for given how quickly that profession either kills or retires its practitioners is a major focus of modern-day players? For fuck's sake its 2079 in Shadowrun. Any Shadowrunner who was alive for that is dead or retired since they would be 40 years old at minimum, with the crop of 17-20-year-olds entering the profession only knowing about it as something their parents talked about.

Random aside, but I find it hard not to sympathize at least in part with Alamos 20,000 given the body count the Great Ghost Dance had. Especially if one of their members is a pissed off opponent of Howling Coyote's who didn't want the Ghost Dance used for destructive means. From my understanding all of the seriously fucked up mana the Ghost Dance caused with the massive body count was intended by some people to make it easier to tear open an astral rift and let the Horrors in.
That's how the wokies are in general; they only care about "muh racism" or "killing the breeders" regardless of context. It's the same idea as most wokies talking about real-world slavery; they only care about virtue signaling and "sticking it" to "the white man" as much as possible.

It's the only thing they care about; as long as "the white man" gets attacked, then the wokies don't care. They view the body count and the aftereffects the Great Ghost Dance had as justified, since it was "racism" and "the breeders" that started it.
 
So I guess my question is, what's the best way to handle this?
Just tell him to back off a bit.

I usually play evil characters and if you talked to me out-of-game and told me to knock it off I'd understand and wouldn't even be mad.
 
What really hurts is that even in just "Dee an' dee" there are scifi settings. Wasn't Spelljammer being talked about recently (before the "orcs lives matters" idiots chimping out about flying space monkeys drowned it in a muddy curb)? Wikipedia isn't so hard to work with.
Spelljammer is not scifi, its fantasy in space, but your general overall point is correct. Idiots who think 5e is the only ttrpg have tried to adapt 5e to all sorts of settings and genres, including scifi.
 
Trannies caused me to stop getting notifications from this thread for like a month

Any strong opinions on D&D 3.5 vs 5e, just from a rules perspective?
Most people already covered this but I'll toss in anyway.

5e is more balanced but soulless. 3.5 need homebrewed to shit or its caster supremacy and rocket-tag, but its also really flexible. 3.5 also has a ton of side books, and you need to go full Council of Trent to say what's in or out. (When I ran most of my 3.5 it was very simple: Only what's in the SRD is legal, because we didn't have $50 a person for PHBs. Anything else approved on a case-by-case basis)

I'd go 3.5 just on general principal and being more familiar with the system.

At this point, I'm asking if maybe we're actually the bad guys, but what the hell, the money's good.
The party are always the bad guys with the heinous shit they get up to for the entertainment of extra planar beings that control their lives the players
They just usually, through no fault of their own, end up doing good with all their evil.


Is it possibly to make OSR (specifically old school essentials) less lethal?
Again most of this was covered but:
- Remove nearly every Save-vs-Death check. I replace most with 6d6 spread over 6 rounds for poison. You can adjust the Xd6 or number of rounds for higher/lower level spells/poisons.
- Max player hit dice.
- Add more Hirelings. Keep it lethal but just deepen the bench. I give players session tokens for good things and one of the things you can do with a session is declare "Wasn't me!" outside of combat (i.e. traps) where if you would trigger a trap, you can cash in your token and say hireling got hit instead.
- Don't have permadeath at 0 HP. One of my games was sort of Fantasy Stargate SG1, where the players ran guilds they managed. If a character dropped to zero HP, the adventurer's kit included a "trauma pack" and if applied quickly could stabilize a 0-HP character. When they got back to base, they rolled to see what happened. There was a small the character would still die (determined by how quickly the party got to them), and sometimes they'd make a full recovery given enough time, they might take a non-mechanical permanent injury, or they might take stat damage. They might be permanently crippled (no longer available for missions) but could serve as a "trainer" that would boost new recruit XP.

Honestly though you need to get your players used to death or just swap to something with more durable characters.


What are your honest opinions about 4e?

For the longest time I've had only heard bad things about it, but I have recently decided to run a 4e Dark Sun campaign for some internet friends and I'm really enjoying it so far. I absolutely love the way statblocks are done and the art of Wayne Reynolds has really grown on me.
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I love 4e. 4e has a lot of warts, and there is a bunch of stuff it doesn't do well.

4e has a very "Shut up and play" methodology vs. something like Pathfinder or even 3.5. There is not a lot of ways to just completely shut down enemies like in Pathfinder - but conversely, monsters can't shutdown players. (As I had to keep telling Pathfinder players: No, you can't disarm the orc. But remember they can't disarm you.)
4e does have space if you want to work in a disarm mechanic if you want.

While you can definitely RP in 4e, and an inability to do so just suggests a munchkin who wants to use Diplomancy to try to fuck with the DM instead of playing the game, the ability to have RP do much to help out in the adventure is somewhat limited. You need people who want to RP for RP's sake.
4e doesn't do overland "Hex exploration" very well at all - Everburning Torches aren't even considered magic items. It generally expects the players just arrive at the Dungeon/Temple/etc. Which on one hand is good for session planning, but sometimes unrewarding for players.

4e has the easiest to run module design I've ever experienced to the point swapping to anything else feels almost painful.

4e has a bad rep because Grogs were whining that their favorite builds and rule abuses were gone. 4e is a little spergy - words have very clear, solid meanings - though issues arrise when the writers forget this. But this also means there's much less space for debate (though players still will).

The biggest issues with 4e are:
1) You need books (or 100% legally acquired PDFs cough) to play and there is no SRD.
2) Combat gets sloggy. This isn't a problem with the important boss battles, but it is with the general mook encounters. As a DM, it limits your ability to encourage players to move along, because a random encounter will pretty much be the session. Which will annoy me as the GM as much as the players.
There are ways to home brew around this (i.e. just abstract random encounters to suck healing surges) but nothing official.
3) Magic item dependence.

It does have its issues but most of its bad rap comes from people who haven't read a single sentence of the books. The way you are going about it of trying it yourself and deciding your own opinion is how I wish more people would do it.
4e also has a problem with experienced D&D players needing to unlearn what they learned from other editions. All the classes in 4e are great. Every one of them serves a purpose, has really neat things they can do. But 4e Bard is a healer who pumps out Temp HP, and not the Bard you see in any other edition.

But most people hated 4e because it was cool to hate on 4e, and it was taking cues from videogame design. But a lot of the outrage-generating things 4e did are standard now.

So... playing a minis game when you didn't intend to show up to play one. Again, there's a good reason that 4e did like shit to the point a 3.5 duplicate kicked its ass at the time. That style of play isn't that popular. People wanted to explore and dungeon delve, not just play Warhams fantasy with a bigger HD pool.
Pathfinder attracted a lot more people than it retained. A lot of people didn't want to buy new books or learn a new way of breaking down abilities.
Once 5e brought back vancian cast, Pathfinder 1e really only retained munchkins who could chain up pluses from obscure splats.

It's my first time playing DnD, how do you deal with a vindictive DM?

You figure out what you are doing to piss off the GM and stop doing that.

Serious answer: Your interpretation seems reasonable and correct, I think the GM is being overly restrictive. Sneak Attack on every AoO can get pretty fucking gnarly if the rogue gets into position where they can SA multiple enemies, but I guess my response as a GM would be to simply demonstrate for the rogue why being adjacent to a bunch of enemies is a very unwise idea when you are in just leather armor...

He's wrong, and you're right. Also, remember, you only get one reaction per round, so it's not a big deal. If you use it to get another Sneak Attack off, it means you can be walloped with no ability to use your Uncanny Dodge.
By the rules in the book, @Kit Marz is right and the DM is wrong.
However rule zero says the DM is never wrong. (but in this case the DM should be choosing to be right in a different way)

Fine, I'll answer this one earnestly:

There has never been a huge success among sci-fi RPG because science fiction has never been as popular an RPG genre as fantasy to begin with.
There isn't a really success for Sci-Fi RPG because Sci-Fi has more guns, and the way the collective consciousness interpret guns in a very binary fashion - being shot is either very lethal (or at least debilitating), or its a complete miss.
 
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@Ghostse because we are apparently having the reply bug to each other.



4e didn't have an SRD in the same way 3e/PF/5e do but it had its own sort of thing. During its run it had a subscription service called Dungeons and Dragons Insider which gave access to the Online Compendium as well as other features. The Compendium was functionally an SRD and technically is still online if you somehow are still paying your DDI sub like a decade later. It would be a shame if someone had ripped it and was hosting it on their own http://iws.mx/dnd/?list.name.All&sort=Type It is missing some content, mostly from Dragon Magazines like Battle Cleric's Lore, but if you know what to look for the wikia has what's missing and every single Dragon Magazine is on the Wayback Machine



Another slight thing is that they did eventually make an optional rule called Inherent Bonuses which adds the boring +x at y level that you would get from magic items into character progression. It was first printed in the Dark Sun books, because being a Christmas tree of magic shit isn't very Dark Sun, and was later reprinted in DMG 2. This way you aren't Diablo style always running towards the next mechanical improvement and can make magic items more special.



I do very much agree though that 4e worked best with people who went in without expectations than with people who went in expecting any other edition. It is its own kind of game compared to the editions its sandwiched between but damn does it make a fun fantasy beat'em up.
 
4e didn't have an SRD in the same way 3e/PF/5e do but it had its own sort of thing. During its run it had a subscription service called Dungeons and Dragons Insider which gave access to the Online Compendium as well as other features. The Compendium was functionally an SRD and technically is still online if you somehow are still paying your DDI sub like a decade later. It would be a shame if someone had ripped it and was hosting it on their own http://iws.mx/dnd/?list.name.All&sort=Type It is missing some content, mostly from Dragon Magazines like Battle Cleric's Lore, but if you know what to look for the wikia has what's missing and every single Dragon Magazine is on the Wayback Machine

i know DDI was a thing, and we did a group sub for a while. But A) I didn't feel like spending $10 a month after spending $100 on the "core 3" box set. and B) there isn't a simple webpage you can just point someone who is Dragon-Curious at and give them a zero-cost way play along. Even if they did want to pony up, DDI wasn't particularly noob friendly. It was great if you knew what you were looking for.

4e was a naked cash grab by Wizards where a lot of design decisions were clearly made to push product.
I might look on 4e less favorably if I had not been able to get a majority of the 4e books from the corpse of the local Borders.

Another slight thing is that they did eventually make an optional rule called Inherent Bonuses which adds the boring +x at y level that you would get from magic items into character progression. It was first printed in the Dark Sun books, because being a Christmas tree of magic shit isn't very Dark Sun, and was later reprinted in DMG 2. This way you aren't Diablo style always running towards the next mechanical improvement and can make magic items more special.

Economy is also another thing that 4e doesn't do well. They lay out the economics pretty well, but once you get above level 3 the costs of anything that isn't a magic weapon becomes absolutely trivial.
My groups running joke was that, according the the PHB, a cow costs about 10g and your shitty backup weapon is worth 10,000.

Which on one hand this keeps the players from trying to wander off and waste sessions to start a small business to buy their next magic sword. On the other hand this means fuck paying 2gp for a room, you can sell your shitty three levels ago sword and just BUY the Inn.

I do very much agree though that 4e worked best with people who went in without expectations than with people who went in expecting any other edition. It is its own kind of game compared to the editions its sandwiched between but damn does it make a fun fantasy beat'em up.

4e got so much right it was a shame to see them wad it up adn toss it when they did 5e.
 
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