Super Smash Bros. Community

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Baldur's Gait said:
I don't doubt the sheer autism of the fighting game community, but Smash is particularly interesting to me since it's one of the only fighting games I'm familiar with, and competitive Smash is the dumbest thing ever to me since the games are clearly meant to have fun with but Smash spergs are so goddamn serious about it.

As much as I love the series, it's a party game that isn't meant to be taken seriously, and that's why the community is so hilarious to me. They try to make the games so much more complex than they really are, when in reality they'd get utterly lost trying to decipher the mechanics of actual fighting games like SF and latter-day MK.
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Let's not kid ourselves here; they would even get lost and confused by early-day MK.
 
MAGICMAN!!! said:
Even as a casual game I do think Smash Melee is one of the best videogames ever created, not going to lie.
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I mean, it is really good - espically for the time. There's no shame in thinking it's really good just as long as you don't think it should be played a EVO Main Stage for more than 11 years.

MAGICMAN!!! said:
It's up there with 3rd Strike, no doubt
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Let's not say things we can't take back, though.
 
These idiots have never heard of Samurai Shodown? How? It's one of the most iconic fighting game series out there behind Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat and Tekken. Again it shows how Smash isn't part of the FGC.
 
Truthboi said:
FTFY
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Smash players don't play other games, there's no crossover. Also there's no such thing as "homey stocks" in the FGC. You take that round if your opponent pauses the game by accident. If your opponent stands up after round 2, thinking he won, you drop a 50 hit 100% anime combo on his ass before he can bury his head in his hands.
 
JackDavis said:
Smash players don't play other games, there's no crossover. Also there's no such thing as "homey stocks" in the FGC. You take that round if your opponent pauses the game by accident. If your opponent stands up after round 2, thinking he won, you drop a 50 hit 100% anime combo on his ass before he can bury his head in his hands.
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Ah that's fair. It's just I have seen some Smash Players try to get into other games while Melee fans never adapt to anything.
 
Tanner Glass said:
I mean, it is really good - espically for the time. There's no shame in thinking it's really good just as long as you don't think it should be played a EVO Main Stage for more than 11 years.



Let's not say things we can't take back, though.
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I have experience in both games and think they both deserve a shot at the main stage but Melee deserves it even more given that 3rd Strike's community hasn't really organised around the game heavily in the west and that proves Armada's point. Both games have potential for development even now but the other has only ever made those strides in Japan. They're both played so differently than they used to be even ten years ago and it wasn't out of place to see people red parry more and more predictable target combos over time in SFIII. The problem is people don't play both games. I quit and fightcade's speed is slightly higher so I didn't really do online but I could play you if you do and show you I'm not just hot air, I never seem to rust from long breaks

As for SamSho I did V Special with someone years ago and it's just kind of like Hyper Fighting with a dash button. It put me to sleep. And @Truthboi's statement about how Melee players don't go to other games, that's kind of far from the case. Lol I could just cite myself but Leffen was a DBFZ pro and quite a few Melee players I've spoke to personally seem to have a thing for Marvel games. I haven't seen a single Smash 4 champ be a pro at another type of game entirely like Leff has been either
 
JackDavis said:
These idiots have never heard of Samurai Shodown? How? It's one of the most iconic fighting game series out there behind Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat and Tekken. Again it shows how Smash isn't part of the FGC.
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Calling it generic or feigning ignorance to it when it more or less invented (or at least popularized) weapons based combat speaks volumes.

Not to mention theres not many series beyond this, Last Blade and Soul Calibur that do the whole historical setting thing that I can think off the top of my head.

Personally I'd be more offended that Guilty Gear isn't at EVO this year, but idgf since nothings more boring than watching other people play fighting games. (edit: and I'm saying that as a fan of the genre.)
 
Megaroad said:
nothings more boring than watching other people play fighting games.
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I'm really surprised to hear someone say this. Of all the video game genres, I would think 1 on 1 fighters are the easiest to watch, understand and enjoy since at it's core it's just a 1 on 1 fight, the most universal and rudimentary of competitions. Who doesn't enjoy two people beating the hell out of each other? It's not like "American Football" where there's a lot going on, but it just looks like people running into each other if you don't understand it.
 
MAGICMAN!!! said:
I have experience in both games and think they both deserve a shot at the main stage but Melee deserves it even more given that 3rd Strike's community hasn't really organised around the game heavily in the west and that proves Armada's point. Both games have potential for development even now but the other has only ever made those strides in Japan. They're both played so differently than they used to be even ten years ago and it wasn't out of place to see people red parry more and more predictable target combos over time in SFIII. The problem is people don't play both games. I quit and fightcade's speed is slightly higher so I didn't really do online but I could play you if you do and show you I'm not just hot air, I never seem to rust from long breaks

As for SamSho I did V Special with someone years ago and it's just kind of like Hyper Fighting with a dash button. It put me to sleep. And @Truthboi's statement about how Melee players don't go to other games, that's kind of far from the case. Lol I could just cite myself but Leffen was a DBFZ pro and quite a few Melee players I've spoke to personally seem to have a thing for Marvel games. I haven't seen a single Smash 4 champ be a pro at another type of game entirely like Leff has been either
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The main difference between the 3S communities and the Melee communities are mainly...

1) 3S has moved on to other games, namely SF4, SF5 (or Tekken 7, for people who hated SF4/5). You look at the "big names" of Third Strike (Diago, Jwong, Tokido, Ricky Ortiz, etc) and you'll notice they have moved on and adapted to the new games. People still play it at side tournaments because it's the best Street Fighter ever made but very few people put it on the "Melee" level of "the only game we should ever play". Everyone who is a 3S fan (myself included) will gladly switch over to SF6 if it includes some !!basic!! things from 3S; namely more defensive options and a smoother experience (no/low input lag).

Melee players didn't move on, despite the fact that Smash Ultimate is pretty good and still demand it be played at tournaments on main stages. It is for them "the only game we want to play" and for them to move over it another smash game it would require the addition of several !!COMPLICATED!! adjustments; such as specific glitches (wavedashing and most Ice Climbers shit) and specific timings on dashes, landings, and attack buffers.

2) 3S has a far better community and they have evolved their smaller tournament scene to include and feature team events (such as Cooperation Cup, which owns). They've expanded different formats and will frequently have new players place well in tournaments. Although 3S is a solved game, there are many characters that are viable at high level play.

Melee is a "solved" game also, but the community never (and doesn't want to) evolve it's tournament types. Sometimes they'll do a double elimination 2v2 teams bracket, but even then it's the same 5-8 players who win everything. Not only do the same ~6 people win everything, but 5 of them play Fox and 1 plays Jigglypuff so there isn't a ton of character variety either.
 
Truthboi said:
Fuck off, Melee has been played for 11 years and it's meta never changed at all.
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More than 11 years and different characters are played completely differently too. Yoshi almost took a major recently and Pikachu could easily do it if Axe was a little more skilled, he's probably a better overall character than Falcon. What is it with this board? Is the reason everyone thinks the same thing because they're worried about downvotes? Seems silly to me.

Tanner Glass said:
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Many SFV players say they wish they were playing other games really. Adapting to other games doesn't mean enjoying it and remember that Mew2King was once the best player in both Brawl and Melee too. Lots of Melee players can play Ultimate and have proven they do alright, it's just a matter of personal enjoyment and isn't that what you're saying people should play games for? I've never did it for money and quit when things weren't fun to me so why does everyone have a stick up their ass, lol
 
JackDavis said:
I'm really surprised to hear someone say this. Of all the video game genres, I would think 1 on 1 fighters are the easiest to watch, understand and enjoy since at it's core it's just a 1 on 1 fight, the most universal and rudimentary of competitions. Who doesn't enjoy two people beating the hell out of each other? It's not like "American Football" where there's a lot going on, but it just looks like people running into each other if you don't understand it.
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I just don't find watching games in general to be fun, even in competitive settings.

Same applies to sports (except hockey because irl fights are fun to watch). Like playing them but man it's boring to watch.
 
MAGICMAN!!! said:
More than 11 years and different characters are played completely differently too. Yoshi almost took a major recently and Pikachu could easily do it if Axe was a little more skilled, he's probably a better overall character than Falcon. What is it with this board? Is the reason everyone thinks the same thing because they're worried about downvotes? Seems silly to me.
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It largely doesn't matter if some characters are played differently, the Top 8 is heavily dominated by the same few people playing the same few characters. I've singled out EVO but this is the same for all "smash majors".

Example

Evo 2018.
Leffen, Fox (1st), Armada, Fox (2nd), Plup, Shiek (3rd), Hungrybox, Jigglypuff (4th).

Evo 2017.
Armada, Peach/Fox (1st), Mango, Fox (2nd), Hungrybox, Jigglypuff (3rd), Mew2King, Shiek/Fox/Marth (4th)

Evo 2016.
Hungrybox, Jigglypuff (1st), Armada, Fox/Peach (2nd), Plup, Shiek/Fox (3rd), Mango, Fox/Falco (4th).

Evo 2015.
Armada, Fox/Peach (1st), Hungrybox, Jigglypuff (2nd), PPMD, Falco/Marth (3rd), Plup, Shiek/Samus (4th)

Evo 2014.
Mango, Fox (1st), Hungrybox, Jigglypuff (2nd), Armada, Peach (3rd), PPMD, Falco (4th).

Evo 2013.
Mango, Fox/Falco (1st), Wobbles, Ice Climbers (2nd), Hungrybox, Jigglypuff (3rd), Armada, Peach (4th).


That's top 4 for every recent Evo, just look how many fucking times you see the words "Fox", "Armada", "Hungrybox, Jigglypuff", "Plup", and "Mango". The biggest upset this game has had in a huge number of years was someone showing up to a tournament with some Ice Climbers bullshit in 2013 and they still couldn't beat Fox. The top 4 in SIX YEARS is occupied by EIGHT PEOPLE (and one of them, Wobbles, is a fluke). Fucking "Armada" is in the top 4 for ALL SIX YEARS STRAIGHT.

Comparing to 3S.

Evo 2003.
1st - KO
2nd - Daigo
3rd - KSK
4th - Ino

Evo 2004.
1st - KO
2nd - Diago
3rd - jwong
4th - Raoh

Evo 2005.
1st - Nuki
2nd - Jwong
3rd - Nitto
4th - Mester

Evo 2006.
1st - Nitto
2nd - Issei
3rd - Nuki
4th - Mester

Evo 2007.
1st - Nuki
2nd - Tokido
3rd - Calipower (Alex Valle)
4th - Makoto Mike

Evo 2008.
1st - Nuki
2nd - Jwong
3rd - Amir (Amirsaleh)
4th - Tokido

You don't have anything resembling the shenanigans in Melee here. Even though you have some repeats you have nearly 100% more diversity in the top 4 (15 top 4 in 3s vs Melee's 8 top 4s). This only gets worse as you go into Top 8, but I only have so much time.


MAGICMAN!!! said:
Many SFV players say they wish they were playing other games really. Adapting to other games doesn't mean enjoying it and remember that Mew2King was once the best player in both Brawl and Melee too. Lots of Melee players can play Ultimate and have proven they do alright, it's just a matter of personal enjoyment and isn't that what you're saying people should play games for? I've never did it for money and quit when things weren't fun to me so why does everyone have a stick up their ass, lol
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Third Strike has features that should probably be in SF6 but these are very simple things to add. SF's current problem is the game is too offensively balanced (as in, Offensive/Rushdown has little risk and large reward) and that you don't have many (or any) defensive options when being attacked. This can easily be mitigated by adding in defensive options (parries are great, but you can also add moves with "armor", push blocks, or something entirely new). There's also the issue of input lag which is also very easy to fix (SF5 literally adds "online" lag to "offline" matches, so just turning this off would go a long way). These changes would add depth to the game and make it more offensive/defense balanced like 3S was.

Melee's features aren't "balance" oriented, they're re-inserting glitches into the game. Wavedashing is nonsense that is unfun to do or play against. It negates tons of penalties and gives already mobile characters even huger mobility.

Want to dash throw and not be vulnerable if you miss? Wavedash.
Want to attack and not be vulnerable to follow up? Wavedash.
Want to instant edge grab? Wavedash.
Want to move forward while still having access to standing normals and smashes? Wavedash.
Want to jump onto platforms without losing any mobility? Wavedash.
Want to land from a jump and negate all landing lag? Wavedash.

These are all specific situations that are supposed to generate an opening for your opponent if you do them incorrectly (missing a throw, whiffing an attack, trying to ledge position, changing position via jumping) or to be a trade off (your moves change while moving) that are all negated by wavedashing. This does not increase the depth of the game at all and makes wavedashing the most absurd, mega useful tool that you could ever have in Melee and is a pretty core skill to have.

A great solution that actually added depth to smash is putting Parry/PerfectShield into Ultimate. It's a very good risk/reward option at a high level of play, compared to Wavedashing that is very little risk and super huge reward.
 
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Tanner Glass said:
That's top 4 for every recent Evo, just look how many fucking times you see the words "Fox", "Armada", "Hungrybox, Jigglypuff", "Plup", and "Mango". The biggest upset this game has had in a huge number of years was someone showing up to a tournament with some Ice Climbers bullshit in 2013 and they still couldn't beat Fox. The top 4 in SIX YEARS is occupied by EIGHT PEOPLE (and one of them, Wobbles, is a fluke). Fucking "Armada" is in the top 4 for ALL SIX YEARS STRAIGHT.
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And of course it's that same top group for Melee because Melee's competitive meta is built SPECIFICALLY to cater to that group. It's a gross, incestuous hive that deserved to get burned down.
 
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