Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[GeorgeDaMoose]

May I recommend "The Eugenics Wars" two parter novels. It deals with the rise of Khan and has Gary Seven and Roberta. Fleshes out their characters a bit more and gives some meaty filler story into how Kahn got rolling.

Sounds really good, I've always wanted to know more about the Eugenics Wars. I was hoping that Enterprise would go into that more deeply, but I've heard that Enterprise isn't exactly a great show.

 

[YankeeTrader]

Sounds really good, I've always wanted to know more about the Eugenics Wars. I was hoping that Enterprise would go into that more deeply, but I've heard that Enterprise isn't exactly a great show.

Parts of Enterprise stink on ice, but other parts are IMO, the finest Star Trek ever made(Season 4 for the most part). It's a rather hit or miss series that's grown on me in time. If you get bored, give it look.

 

[GeorgeDaMoose]

So I finished Season 3 of TOS which was probably the weakest season in TOS despite having really good episodes. I think the episodes towards the end were noticeably worse in quality with the exception of the one with historical figures coming to life and battling each other on an alien planet. Seeing Abraham Lincoln appear in front of the Enterprise on the view screen in the middle of space was fucking hilarious. Then he got on board and called Uhura a Negress and my sides were in orbit like Lincoln Really fun episode.

I skipped over the movies and TAS and went right to TNG which might have been a mistake. I figure after Season 1 of TNG I'd go back the movies and then TAS.
Halfway through the first season and it's pretty okay. Riker is a pretty cool dude. Kind of gives me a feeling of a young Kirk with less experienced. Charmer, pretty sharp, but also kind of arrogant. Maybe that's just me though. Data is very fun, always liked robots learning to become human. Picard started out kind of weird (seemed like a huge asshole) but he mellowed out very fast for some reason. I feel like Picard was supposed to be a much harder captain, but they changed that pretty fast. Some good episodes like Too Short a Season so far, but it feels kind of lacking compared to TOS. It's not amazing me like TOS did with its first season and I feel like the rest of the cast like Geordi, Tasha, Worf, Troi, Crusher are kind of weaker than a lot of the other side characters in TOS. Sulu, Scotty, Chekov, Uhura, Chapel, etc were all very fun crew members in their own way. Wesley is also insufferable for some reason. I get the feeling that when he appears on screen, characters start acting unlike themselves so they can just show how SMART and RIGHT Wesley is.

 

[YankeeTrader]

So I finished Season 3 of TOS which was probably the weakest season in TOS despite having really good episodes. I think the episodes towards the end were noticeably worse in quality with the exception of the one with historical figures coming to life and battling each other on an alien planet. Seeing Abraham Lincoln appear in front of the Enterprise on the view screen in the middle of space was fucking hilarious. Then he got on board and called Uhura a Negress and my sides were in orbit like Lincoln Really fun episode.

I skipped over the movies and TAS and went right to TNG which might have been a mistake. I figure after Season 1 of TNG I'd go back the movies and then TAS.
Halfway through the first season and it's pretty okay. Riker is a pretty cool dude. Kind of gives me a feeling of a young Kirk with less experienced. Charmer, pretty sharp, but also kind of arrogant. Maybe that's just me though. Data is very fun, always liked robots learning to become human. Picard started out kind of weird (seemed like a huge asshole) but he mellowed out very fast for some reason. I feel like Picard was supposed to be a much harder captain, but they changed that pretty fast. Some good episodes like Too Short a Season so far, but it feels kind of lacking compared to TOS. It's not amazing me like TOS did with its first season and I feel like the rest of the cast like Geordi, Tasha, Worf, Troi, Crusher are kind of weaker than a lot of the other side characters in TOS. Sulu, Scotty, Chekov, Uhura, Chapel, etc were all very fun crew members in their own way. Wesley is also insufferable for some reason. I get the feeling that when he appears on screen, characters start acting unlike themselves so they can just show how SMART and RIGHT Wesley is.

TNG will come into its own before long and become something pretty amazing. I also apologize in advance for the shitshow that's season 2. It has a couple of moments, but it's pretty weak. Just about everyone on TNG does develop character wise, so you'll have that to look forward to as the series progresses.

I don't even want to discuss Wesley tonight.

 

[bacterium]

So I finished Season 3 of TOS which was probably the weakest season in TOS despite having really good episodes. I think the episodes towards the end were noticeably worse in quality with the exception of the one with historical figures coming to life and battling each other on an alien planet. Seeing Abraham Lincoln appear in front of the Enterprise on the view screen in the middle of space was fucking hilarious. Then he got on board and called Uhura a Negress and my sides were in orbit like Lincoln Really fun episode.

I skipped over the movies and TAS and went right to TNG which might have been a mistake. I figure after Season 1 of TNG I'd go back the movies and then TAS.
Halfway through the first season and it's pretty okay. Riker is a pretty cool dude. Kind of gives me a feeling of a young Kirk with less experienced. Charmer, pretty sharp, but also kind of arrogant. Maybe that's just me though. Data is very fun, always liked robots learning to become human. Picard started out kind of weird (seemed like a huge asshole) but he mellowed out very fast for some reason. I feel like Picard was supposed to be a much harder captain, but they changed that pretty fast. Some good episodes like Too Short a Season so far, but it feels kind of lacking compared to TOS. It's not amazing me like TOS did with its first season and I feel like the rest of the cast like Geordi, Tasha, Worf, Troi, Crusher are kind of weaker than a lot of the other side characters in TOS. Sulu, Scotty, Chekov, Uhura, Chapel, etc were all very fun crew members in their own way. Wesley is also insufferable for some reason. I get the feeling that when he appears on screen, characters start acting unlike themselves so they can just show how SMART and RIGHT Wesley is.

I never got into TNG as much as a lot of people, but First Contact is probably my favorite ST movie.
The Voyage Home is also a fun movie, but you definitely have to watch 2 and 3 first.

Also, Riker is probably my favorite from TNG.

 

[Holdek]

Except with TNG they had the original model footage available, so they just cleaned up and pieced together the actual shots from the show's run, and only used CGI for the bits where either the footage was missing, or the effects had originally been done digitally. With TOS they didn't have the footage available - not that it would have mattered if they did, as it would have looked like total shit due to how they pieced FX shots together back in the 60s - so they had to redo everything from scratch.

No, in fact kind of the opposite.

All the FX was redone for the TNG remastering because the original FX shots were composited in video and couldn't be upconverted. The non-FX footage was on film.

With TOS all the footage, including the FX, was on film. The only reason they replaced the FX shots in the remastering was to take advantage of the latest computer graphics technology. At first this was somewhat controversial and Leonard Nimoy said, "Shame on them," when he heard about it. He changed his mind though after he saw the episodes.

 

[GeorgeDaMoose]

So Season 2 managed to TRIGGER me so hard right at the first episode, "The Child".
What the FUCK were they thinking?
So an alien creeps up fucking Troi's snatch and impregnates her and everybody acts like this is a fucking gift from God? It's borderline rape shit and Worf is the only one sensible to say "ABORT ABORT ABORT ABORT". Fucking hell, even William "Cucked By a Speck of Light" Riker doesn't have an issue with his old love being impregnated by an alien. I get that fucking Star Trek is about seeking new life and new civilizations, exploring new worlds, going where no man has gone before, but that shit is too much.

Shit and then they replaced Crusher with Pulaski and while I liked her as Dr. Jones in TOS, it felt like they just put her on the show for the sake of having a McCoy-type character without understanding what exactly made McCoy fun. Sure, he poked fun at Spock and yes he was rude to him on more than a few occasions when Spock was going full-Vulcan when shit hit the fan. McCoy never went full asshole like Pulaski though who refers to Data as an "it" and seems to give him shit at any moment possible.
Speaking of new characters, Whoopi Goldberg is surprisingly tolerable most of the time. She's not incredibly interesting, but I really thought I wouldn't like her.

 

[YankeeTrader]

So Season 2 managed to TRIGGER me so hard right at the first episode, "The Child".
What the FUCK were they thinking?
So an alien creeps up fucking Troi's snatch and impregnates her and everybody acts like this is a fucking gift from God? It's borderline rape shit and Worf is the only one sensible to say "ABORT ABORT ABORT ABORT". Fucking hell, even William "Cucked By a Speck of Light" Riker doesn't have an issue with his old love being impregnated by an alien. I get that fucking Star Trek is about seeking new life and new civilizations, exploring new worlds, going where no man has gone before, but that shit is too much.

Shit and then they replaced Crusher with Pulaski and while I liked her as Dr. Jones in TOS, it felt like they just put her on the show for the sake of having a McCoy-type character without understanding what exactly made McCoy fun. Sure, he poked fun at Spock and yes he was rude to him on more than a few occasions when Spock was going full-Vulcan when shit hit the fan. McCoy never went full asshole like Pulaski though who refers to Data as an "it" and seems to give him shit at any moment possible.
Speaking of new characters, Whoopi Goldberg is surprisingly tolerable most of the time. She's not incredibly interesting, but I really thought I wouldn't like her.

You've managed to correctly identify most of Season 2's problems pretty thoroughly. Hang in there, Season 3 is on the way, and it does get better.

 

[bacterium]

So Season 2 managed to TRIGGER me so hard right at the first episode, "The Child".
What the FUCK were they thinking?
So an alien creeps up fucking Troi's snatch and impregnates her and everybody acts like this is a fucking gift from God? It's borderline rape shit and Worf is the only one sensible to say "ABORT ABORT ABORT ABORT". Fucking hell, even William "Cucked By a Speck of Light" Riker doesn't have an issue with his old love being impregnated by an alien. I get that fucking Star Trek is about seeking new life and new civilizations, exploring new worlds, going where no man has gone before, but that shit is too much.

Shit and then they replaced Crusher with Pulaski and while I liked her as Dr. Jones in TOS, it felt like they just put her on the show for the sake of having a McCoy-type character without understanding what exactly made McCoy fun. Sure, he poked fun at Spock and yes he was rude to him on more than a few occasions when Spock was going full-Vulcan when shit hit the fan. McCoy never went full asshole like Pulaski though who refers to Data as an "it" and seems to give him shit at any moment possible.
Speaking of new characters, Whoopi Goldberg is surprisingly tolerable most of the time. She's not incredibly interesting, but I really thought I wouldn't like her.

Yeah, Pulaski is pretty terrible. And I was also surprised I didn't absolutely hate Guinan.

 

[GeorgeDaMoose]

So I've managed to notice a few things about Season 2 halfway through which is a little strange. I thought that The Measure of Man would surely be the only good episode in the season, but surprisingly enough A Matter of Honor was nothing short of fantastic. So far Season 2 is confusing quality wise. It opened up with The Child which was shit, then it was kind of mediocre with some fun episodes (Elementary, Dear Data) then it had two fantastic episodes in a row (Matter of Honor, Measure of Man) only to ruin that good streak with fucking The Dauphin.

The quality is just all over the place. I can't understand why for the god damn life of me. I know Roddenberry was pretty much at death's door during Season 2, but from what I also understand he became less involved with the show after Season 1. I don't know any real behind the scenes info about Star Trek, but does anyone have any idea why this Season is so wonky?

Another thing I noticed is that Picard is completely overshadowed by Data and Riker. Riker is charming as fuck, tough, and clever. Dude fucking beat the shit out of a Klingon on their own ship, kicked the captain off to take command, managed to get some Klingon chicks feeling the hots for him, gained the respect of the bridge crew, and was just suave as fuck that entire episode to the point where whenever he was on screen I was just smiling. Data on the other hand has this childlike innocence that you could only really get out of an android. Add superhuman abilities and incredible intelligence and he's really fun to watch. They both really match up to Spock and McCoy in the sense that they're a blast to watch on screen. Then there's Picard. He's the captain of the Enterprise and I'd say his defining characteristic is uhh...being kind of a hard ass? I really don't know what else he's got going for him. He has fun moments with Riker, but Riker himself is usually the source of the fun there. He was great in The Measure of a Man, but that's the only episode I've really liked him in. I saw him in a two-part episode where he was kept as a sort of slave on a criminal vessel which he was great in too so I hope he gets better.

Lastly, TNG is really, really, really violent at some times. Phasers set to kill are borderline horrifying. I guess this started towards the end of Season 1 when Picard shot a Starfleet officer who was infected with a parasite that was controlling him and his fucking face melted off and his stomach exploded. I kind of wrote off that incident as just being related to that episode, but to my surprise when Riva's chorus was shot in the beginning of Season 2, their flesh pretty much melted off before only a skeleton was left. I have no idea why this change was made, but I generally prefer phaser shots either leaving holes in the body or just making entire people disappear like in TOS. It's not very fitting for people to melt in Star Trek. I'd assume that the Federation generally wouldn't want weapons to do that shit.

 

[YankeeTrader]

So I've managed to notice a few things about Season 2 halfway through which is a little strange. I thought that The Measure of Man would surely be the only good episode in the season, but surprisingly enough A Matter of Honor was nothing short of fantastic. So far Season 2 is confusing quality wise. It opened up with The Child which was shit, then it was kind of mediocre with some fun episodes (Elementary, Dear Data) then it had two fantastic episodes in a row (Matter of Honor, Measure of Man) only to ruin that good streak with fucking The Dauphin.

The quality is just all over the place. I can't understand why for the god damn life of me. I know Roddenberry was pretty much at death's door during Season 2, but from what I also understand he became less involved with the show after Season 1. I don't know any real behind the scenes info about Star Trek, but does anyone have any idea why this Season is so wonky?

Another thing I noticed is that Picard is completely overshadowed by Data and Riker. Riker is charming as fuck, tough, and clever. Dude fucking beat the shit out of a Klingon on their own ship, kicked the captain off to take command, managed to get some Klingon chicks feeling the hots for him, gained the respect of the bridge crew, and was just suave as fuck that entire episode to the point where whenever he was on screen I was just smiling. Data on the other hand has this childlike innocence that you could only really get out of an android. Add superhuman abilities and incredible intelligence and he's really fun to watch. They both really match up to Spock and McCoy in the sense that they're a blast to watch on screen. Then there's Picard. He's the captain of the Enterprise and I'd say his defining characteristic is uhh...being kind of a hard ass? I really don't know what else he's got going for him. He has fun moments with Riker, but Riker himself is usually the source of the fun there. He was great in The Measure of a Man, but that's the only episode I've really liked him in. I saw him in a two-part episode where he was kept as a sort of slave on a criminal vessel which he was great in too so I hope he gets better.

Lastly, TNG is really, really, really violent at some times. Phasers set to kill are borderline horrifying. I guess this started towards the end of Season 1 when Picard shot a Starfleet officer who was infected with a parasite that was controlling him and his fucking face melted off and his stomach exploded. I kind of wrote off that incident as just being related to that episode, but to my surprise when Riva's chorus was shot in the beginning of Season 2, their flesh pretty much melted off before only a skeleton was left. I have no idea why this change was made, but I generally prefer phaser shots either leaving holes in the body or just making entire people disappear like in TOS. It's not very fitting for people to melt in Star Trek. I'd assume that the Federation generally wouldn't want weapons to do that shit.

I think you're seeing the shows growing pains made real. There was a writers strike that year that screwed with production. I'm not sure off hand how many scripts were ready before the strike and how many were either recycled (The Child was a reheat of a Phase II script if memory serves), or done by scab fill in writers. Short of it is the season suffered big time. When it was good, it was fantastic, but there were plenty of dogs that year.

Last rewatch I did, I largely skipped over a lot of season 2. Somehow I talked myself into sitting through that God awful finale, since I avoid it like the plague. It did not age well at all.

Have you seen DS9 at all? I only ask since you reference the violence TNG is showing.

 

[GeorgeDaMoose]

I think you're seeing the shows growing pains made real. There was a writers strike that year that screwed with production. I'm not sure off hand how many scripts were ready before the strike and how many were either recycled (The Child was a reheat of a Phase II script if memory serves), or done by scab fill in writers. Short of it is the season suffered big time. When it was good, it was fantastic, but there were plenty of dogs that year.

Last rewatch I did, I largely skipped over a lot of season 2. Somehow I talked myself into sitting through that God awful finale, since I avoid it like the plague. It did not age well at all.

Have you seen DS9 at all? I only ask since you reference the violence TNG is showing.

I'm trying to watch all the episodes of the shows in order. I'm probably going to watch TAS and the movies for TOS after I'm done with Season 2. So no, I haven't seen any of DS9. I understand it's darker than TNG and TOS though. I don't have an issue with a lot of violence like fighting or shooting, but it seems really weird that the Federation would use weapons that blow up/melt people.

 

[YankeeTrader]

I'm trying to watch all the episodes of the shows in order. I'm probably going to watch TAS and the movies for TOS after I'm done with Season 2. So no, I haven't seen any of DS9. I understand it's darker than TNG and TOS though. I don't have an issue with a lot of violence like fighting or shooting, but it seems really weird that the Federation would use weapons that blow up/melt people.

Was just wondering. Yes, DS9 does run on the dark side at times, but I think does a better job of exploring humanity than it's given credit for. It also has it's lighthearted moments as well, as well as a few that are just outright hilarious.

As for the melty weapons, that gets toned down as the series evolves.

 

[HarryHowler]

The quality is just all over the place. I can't understand why for the god damn life of me. I know Roddenberry was pretty much at death's door during Season 2, but from what I also understand he became less involved with the show after Season 1. I don't know any real behind the scenes info about Star Trek, but does anyone have any idea why this Season is so wonky?

Roddenberry had basically forgotten how to run a TV series by the time TNG launched, and then about halfway through the first season he handed over showrunning duties to a guy who knew next to nothing about sci-fi and thought most of Roddenberry's ideas about the future were stupid, but was at least able to get filmable scripts out. As mentioned above there was a writer's strike before the second season, so most of the scripts came from outside sources, and it was luck of the draw as to how well they worked. It wasn't until the third season that they really got a writing staff with a feel for Star Trek.

William Shatner actually did a pretty interesting documentary on TNG's early years, if you want more info.

 

[AnOminous]

So Season 2 managed to TRIGGER me so hard right at the first episode, "The Child".
What the FUCK were they thinking?
So an alien creeps up fucking Troi's snatch and impregnates her and everybody acts like this is a fucking gift from God? It's borderline rape shit and Worf is the only one sensible to say "ABORT ABORT ABORT ABORT". Fucking hell, even William "Cucked By a Speck of Light" Riker doesn't have an issue with his old love being impregnated by an alien. I get that fucking Star Trek is about seeking new life and new civilizations, exploring new worlds, going where no man has gone before, but that shit is too much.

This was such a horrifyingly shitty episode basically everyone involved has disclaimed it, blamed other people for it, and apologized for having anything to do with it.

Yeah, Pulaski is pretty terrible. And I was also surprised I didn't absolutely hate Guinan.

Whoopi was actually my favorite of the recurring guest stars other than Deanna's hot mom Lwaxana.

 

[GeorgeDaMoose]

Fuck Season 3 was pretty excellent. I had a few issues with some episodes (That Barclay episode was absolute hell), but man it was overall really fun. Shit that Borg two-parter was nothing less than amazing. Love the Borg so much, collective intelligence is always a fun sci-fi concept. Really well executed too, from the set design to the design of the individual Borg. Aside from the Borg, Season 3 managed to make even Wesley good in one episode. Picard was also a lot more fun than in the previous seasons. Looking forward to the rest of Season 4 and beyond.

Roddenberry had basically forgotten how to run a TV series by the time TNG launched, and then about halfway through the first season he handed over showrunning duties to a guy who knew next to nothing about sci-fi and thought most of Roddenberry's ideas about the future were stupid, but was at least able to get filmable scripts out. As mentioned above there was a writer's strike before the second season, so most of the scripts came from outside sources, and it was luck of the draw as to how well they worked. It wasn't until the third season that they really got a writing staff with a feel for Star Trek.

William Shatner actually did a pretty interesting documentary on TNG's early years, if you want more info.

What documentary would that be? I know Shatner did a few Trek docs.

 

[YankeeTrader]

Fuck Season 3 was pretty excellent. I had a few issues with some episodes (That Barclay episode was absolute hell), but man it was overall really fun. Shit that Borg two-parter was nothing less than amazing. Love the Borg so much, collective intelligence is always a fun sci-fi concept. Really well executed too, from the set design to the design of the individual Borg. Aside from the Borg, Season 3 managed to make even Wesley good in one episode. Picard was also a lot more fun than in the previous seasons. Looking forward to the rest of Season 4 and beyond.


What documentary would that be? I know Shatner did a few Trek docs.

Chaos on the Bridge

 

[GeorgeDaMoose]

Season 4 was pretty good except for a few things. Barclay becoming a recurring character is a huge mistake. Wesley becoming a God of Time and Space is a really huge mistake. The Host was fucking horrible.
Family had the best Picard moment though. The Drumhead was fucking fantastic. The Wounded and The Mind's Eye was really good.
Season 5 is pretty good so far too. Unification was good fun with Spock, Redemption was great, Ensign Ro was excellent, Darmok was really interesting to watch. Only episode that really annoyed me so far was the Wesley one where he saves the Enterprise from a really, really, really fucking retarded threat as soon as he gets back on board. Such a shame too because the last episode with him was really damn good. I always wanted Wesley to kind of grow as a character and there are moments in the show when I do get that feeling. Most of the time though he feels competent from the start. He'd probably be one of my favorite characters if he wasn't so good at the shit he does.

Also watched Chaos on the Bridge and Lord Almighty Roddenberry sounded like he was a bit of an asshole. That lawyer of his sure sounded like a huge piece of shit though. Also very weird that Roddenberry was working with a writer who absolutely hated his ideas of the future (I'm not a huge fan of them entirely either, but they make for a really interesting show). I kind of respect that even though he hated what he was given, he still dealt with it well enough. Seems like it was a good thing that Roddenberry was losing it during Season 2-3 though, the show seems a lot better without any of his input even if that's a bit mean to say.
The documentary itself was kind of obnoxious at some points. The music was very odd for a doc based on a sci-fi show's production and while I really liked the style of the illustrations, I felt that they were kind of goofy during some moments. I also expected most of the documentary to be all about Leonard Maizlish and was pleasantly surprised that this wasn't the case. Was expecting this because the entire article on Chaos on the Bridge on Memory Alpha is pretty much just an article on the guy for some reason even though there's a larger focus on Roddenberry. The wiki article also really fucking sucks off Roddenberry while the documentary didn't seem to hold back anything when talking about him. It was kind of surprising to hear from various people (Patrick Stewart really surprised me with this too) that Gene wasn't that great of a guy at the end.

 

[melty]

Wesley becoming space time god is good just because it finally gets him off the damn show. Also, iirc his mom barely acknowledges it in the episodes after, which is really funny. Unless they are interacting directly I barely recognize they're related.
Which exceptional threat was it in that season? Was it the one where they were all obsessed with some game?

I like ensign ro too, I assume you haven't seen deep space nine but apparently Major Kira was originally supposed to be Ro.
I have mixed feelings about Roddenberry, at this point I don't want to learn any more about him for the same reason you don't want to meet your heros.

 

[GeorgeDaMoose]

Wesley becoming space time god is good just because it finally gets him off the damn show. Also, iirc his mom barely acknowledges it in the episodes after, which is really funny. Unless they are interacting directly I barely recognize they're related.
Which exceptional threat was it in that season? Was it the one where they were all obsessed with some game?

I like ensign ro too, I assume you haven't seen deep space nine but apparently Major Kira was originally supposed to be Ro.
I have mixed feelings about Roddenberry, at this point I don't want to learn any more about him for the same reason you don't want to meet your heros.

Yeah the game was the threat. Was a really god damn dumb conflict.
I was kind of hoping for Ro to stick through for DS9. She actually seems like the perfect character for that series. Looked up if she would be continuing a little earlier though and it's pretty sad that she gets dumped in the second to last episode of Season 7.