Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

  • ⚙️ Performance issue identified and being addressed.
  • Want to keep track of this thread?
    Accounts can bookmark posts, watch threads for updates, and jump back to where you stopped reading.
    Create account
This seems to be happening in all media. New Guardians of The Galaxy Game: Galaxy destroying evil. New Dr Who: Universe Destroying Evil. Mass Effect: Andromeda, ok, yea, I have no idea what the fuck that was.

We have to go BIGGER... BIGGER... It's been getting larger and more stupid for years. Babylon 5 had a galaxy destroying evil way back when and plenty of shows before it, but now it's literally everything doing it.

Ragtag team of misfits saves the planet/galaxy/universe.

How about Ragtag team of misfits saves kitten from tree.
The SW EU had this problem as well. Galaxy threatening stakes and crises, every series.

Part of it, I think is marketing/general audience concerns. A series about characters doing something on a single planet or some local problem or another might interest hard core fans interested in said characters, but its going to struggle to get wide appeal. That isn't to say too low stakes can not be a problem either. The stakes have to be there in some form, else why bother at all?
 
Some of the TNG movies had the opposite problem of low stakes, like in Generations when Soran plans to destroy some random planet we've never heard of before and never see. Can they just go back to the old "stop the destruction of Earth" routine? It may not be exactly original, but it works as a storytelling device.
I'll admit, I like that about Generations. That it is just some planet, not even of warp people, just some industrial types, and the crew is fighting and putting themselves at risk to save them anyway is a nice touch to the characters.

By now I'm tired of Earth being in danger (especially when you have a set up where there's countless worlds available).

Give me heroes being heroic.
The SW EU had this problem as well. Galaxy threatening stakes and crises, every series.

Part of it, I think is marketing/general audience concerns. A series about characters doing something on a single planet or some local problem or another might interest hard core fans interested in said characters, but its going to struggle to get wide appeal. That isn't to say too low stakes can not be a problem either. The stakes have to be there in some form, else why bother at all?
Sometimes the SW:EU could do localized stories.

Look I'm going to spell it out: it always comes down to character. How you pull those off will determine the rest.

Let's go with a very pulp manga/light novel guilty pleasure of mine: Goblin Slayer. It's a deliberate, on-running gag in the series that we are NOT following the big, prophesied hero on a quest to save the world. That's happening off screen with very brief glimpses and references. Every arc is always a local challenge. We're saving a farm, a city, a village in winter, etc. Yet with these lowest of low stakes, I often find myself more on the edge of my seat than in the last Avengers film. Why? Because I get invested in the characters and the efforts.

Now you may not like Goblin Slayer, may even dislike it, but it's not going to suddenly become captivating to you if we suddenly raise the stakes. If that was true, then Discovery and Picard would be the most captivating TV shows currently being made. Hell Star Wars fans have publicly declared the Mandalorian, a TV show about a stupid baby, far more captivating than the entire sequel trilogy which had the entire galaxy at stake.

Back to the Future is a movie that has held up for decades now and the only thing at stake in it is one high school loser and his siblings.

Character is always the key. Make compelling, interesting characters that the audience gets invested in and you can set ANYTHING as the stakes and they will buy it.

And if your characters suck? Then it doesn't matter how high you set the stakes, it won't change the audience's investment one iota.
 
Last edited:
I'll admit, I like that about Generations. That it is just some planet, not even of warp people, just some industrial types, and the crew is fighting and putting themselves at risk to save them anyway.

By now I'm tired of Earth being in danger (especially when you have a set up where there's countless worlds available).

Give me heroes being heroic.

Sometimes the EU could do localized stories.

Look I'm going to spell it out: it always comes down to character. How you pull those off will determine the rest.

Let's go with a very pulp manga/light novel guilty pleasure of mine: Goblin Slayer. It's a deliberate, on running gag in the series that we are NOT following the big, prophesied hero on a quest to save the world. That's happening off screen with very brief glimpses and references. Evey arc is always a local challenge. We're saving a farm, a city, a village in winter, etc.yet with these lowest of low stakes, I often find myself more on the edge of my seat than in the last Avengers film. Why? Because I get invested in the characters and the efforts.

Now you may not like Goblin Slayer, may even dislike it, but it's not going to suddenly become captivating to you if we suddenly raise the stakes. If that was true, the Discovery and Picard would be the most captivating TV shows currently being made. Hell Star Wars fans have publicly declared the Mandalorian, a TV show about a stupid baby, far more captivating than the entire sequel trilogy which had the entire galaxy at stake.

Back to the Future is a movie that has held up for decades now and the only thing at stake in it is one high school loser and his siblings.

Character is always the key. Make compelling, interesting characters that the audience gets invested in and you set ANYTHING as the stakes and they will buy it.

And if your characters suck? Then it doesn't matter how high you set the stakes, it won't change the audience's investment one iota.
I agree with this 100%. I love watching the TOS because I loved it as a kid, everyone in my school did. It really is basically Horatio Hornblower in space, like Rodenberry proposed. He lucked out with Nimoy and Shatner as well as the the rest of the cast. Some of the episodes don't always work and its downright corny at times but it holds up after all those years. TNG is also great to re-watch. Voyager had its flaws but like someone pointed out Mulgrew is a good actress and managed to keep it together; like TOS and TNG it was Adventures in Space so its way more rewatchable than STD or Picard, both of which suffer from bad writing and bad acting.

Tasty and Flexo are right about the direction Trek took is just boring. I'd like to add to what Flexo pointed out about Mando being way better that the sequel trilogy; it was a space western that took place irrespective of the main SW story. It also has a beginning, middle and end so everything leads to one final resolution/ending. While I really don't care what Andorians cook for breakfast or how to train your saylot, an episodes that shows that in the background is far more interesting than Picard's pit bull (unless he mauls that crackhead that's always bitching at Picard). To show an Andorian cooking whatever means interaction with one and it would be interesting to see that instead of the Borg target Earth again #471.
 
And if your characters suck? Then it doesn't matter how high you set the stakes, it won't change the audience's investment one iota.
I think that's my main problem with new Trek: all characters and characterizations are plain and boring, even characters that we already know.

Every single ST character, whether you like them or not, are unique and memorable. There is always something about them making you remember them and see them as real individuals. For example, take Ricker: he's brave, smart, and capable, but also a goof who cannot play the saxophone other thingy Not a saxo and is unable to move on from the Enterprise to a new job. When Jellico arrived, they showed his kids' drawings, showing us immediately he's the opposite of Picard. That's very good characterization as they put him as Picard's opposite, while also a good, family man.

None of the new characters of the new Treks are this good. Because the writers have no hobbies, they consoome hobbies, that's not the same. They aren't able to humanize them with details.

And then, the ones already humanized have been transformed into something else. Like Seven, who's now a completely different character. She hadn't evolved, she's been simply changed, not the same either.
 
Last edited:
Does make sense considering Dukat seems to be obsessed with winning the respect of people who fucking hate him and Bajoran terrorists fit that criteria quite well
Yeah but, like... as we've seen time and time again, there are more beautiful women than Kira. Plus, it just makes his character look pathetic. There's romantic pining, and then there's just not taking a hint. If the writers/Marc really wanted to make it seem good, they should've had Kira actually entertain the idea of her and Dukat. THAT would've been cool, it would've been like, her potentially becoming a terrorist again, and him actually managing to get through to her. Or maybe it should've been a mirror universe episode! They should've just done that and we could have been spared Dukat going full retard because of her.
 
I think a Kira Dukat romance would have been somewhat interesting in the classic love/hate passion thingie done sometimes.

I always felt that Kira was waaaaaay underused as a character. Just another #2 to blindly approve and follow the captain.

I mean..come on, she was a freedom fighter for most of her life and a deeply religious person in an age when science rules the moral centre of most societies ( gee kinda like what our own society is going thru, imagine that). Just like Voyager I would have loved some deeper conflict between Star Fleet and the new crew member but noooo, by episode 2 she's Sisko's right hand no issues at all just like Chakotay and his marquis merged perfectly into Voyagers crew.

What a wasted opportunity to explore how the Federation inter grates new worlds and the cultural clash between science focused and spiritually focused groups.

Plus I found mirror Kira to be amaze balls hawt..Nana Vistor could do the sexpot role super well surprisingly.
 
Yeah but, like... as we've seen time and time again, there are more beautiful women than Kira.
Ehh, this doesn't really annoy me. How many men cheat on their trophy wives with the maid or nanny?

Green woman, catsuits. These are engrained in pop culture. But the truth is, most Trek women are mid at best (which is fine).

MV5BMTc4YmNjZGYtNWZmNS00YjAxLTlkOTMtNzdlYjUzNmYzYzk5XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTcwNTE1Ng._V1__33.jpg
 
Last edited:
I think a Kira Dukat romance would have been somewhat interesting in the classic love/hate passion thingie done sometimes.
It really would have been unthinkable. Like doing a story about a jewish woman falling in love with Hitler. Sure it makes sense for Dukat to fancy her (if anything the show really confirms that the had a bajoran fetish) but there is NO WAY she would have after years spent trying to kill him and his people.

One flaw I will admit that DS9 does have is the way just everybody seems to want to Kira (to the point they seemed to have built an entire episode around it). This is why I especially love the idea SFDebris proposed that Kira should have been the one to pursue Odo. If for no reason then it would have been different rather than another comment about how this woman is so hot even a sexless, genderless shapeshifter wants to bang her.

(Dax was hotter anyway.)

But the truth is, most Star Trek women are average at best (which is fine).
Only because Discovery and Picard have brought the average way down.

Remember back in the day TNG could brag that Teri Hatcher had served on the ship. Heck an actual miss america winner (who had her crown revoked, granted) has appeared on DS9.

(And I am comparing prime vs prime - it's not fair to grade that the properties often go on so long we have to watch the babes hit the wall)
 
ENT was kino from the start, you guys just don't have the faith of the heart.

Let's be honest, the Breen are most likely just humans with forehead ridges and shit on their face.
The Breen might be all women with Only Fans accounts since Damar calls them "Thot".
 
Ehh, this doesn't really annoy me. How many celebs cheat on their wives with the uggo maid or nanny?

Green woman, catsuits. These are engrained in popular culture. But the truth is, most Star Trek women are average at best (which is fine).

View attachment 2715833
I disagree since TOS women were usually above average.
 
I disagree since TOS women were usually above average.
While not ugly by any means, they weren't conventionally pretty. They had a mature beauty, I think.

It's probably shallow of me, but aside from the few (Famke Janssen, Michelle Forbes), most TNG girls are meh.

MV5BNTMwMDk1OTYzNl5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwOTkxNTg0MjE@._V1_.jpg

MV5BMTg2MzAxOTgyOF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwMTEyODY0MDE._V1__23.jpg

ST: D women are also above average... oh, you weren't referring to their weight.
I look forward to seeing Mary Wiseman on Dancing With the Stars.
 
Last edited:
While not ugly by any means, they weren't conventionally pretty. They had a mature beauty, I think.

It's probably shallow of me, but aside from the few (Famke Janssen, Michelle Forbes), most TNG girls are meh.
Same for the men. It was slim pickin's 95% of the time. Even the guys that the women fell in love with were pretty bland.
 
Back
Top Bottom