Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[XYZpdq]

Regarding the DS9 novels I can wholeheartedly recommend A Stitch in Time by Andrew Robinson to anyone who enjoyed Garak and the Cardassians in general. Considering Robinson was "only" Garak's actor the storytelling and prose is surprisingly solid and gives great insight into everyone's favourite plain and simple tailor's past! Out of all the DS9 novels it's probably my personal favourite. I wouldn't say the novels are as good as the show and sometimes they can be downright exceptional lol, but alot of them are quite fun to read especially if you just miss that very specific and slightly campy DS9 vibe.

yeah A Stitch In Time is really great with the caveat that it is REALLY ANSWERS about Garak

iirc it's co-author working with Robinson through Robinson's own character development notes made through DS9 but it's basically what Robinson was working with for emotional memory when he alluded to vague shit in Garak's past like gardener for the Romulan ambassador and stuff rather than a massaging of things made by the writers so the HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS status might be questionable, but it's probably the closest to the real answers about Garak as anybody can offer

it really is worth warning that it really answers questions, and Garak is a character in no small part built of unanswered questions so you may want to pause to consider if you want Garak explained or if you want him a pile of mystery

 

[HumanHive]

Just re-watching the TOS movies and I without reading whether this is confirmed or not, I think the main motif from II to VI, it's solving the Klingon CKonflict.

By the time we see TNG, the Klingons are allies and Worf's presence is there to show that many wounds have been healed. So, the next logical step was to follow with the Romulans. The first season ends with the re-introduction of the Romulans and they make it a big deal. Through the rest of seasons, we see the Federation approach them and being a bit more accepting and open minded and if I didn't know anything about ST, I'd think Unification was the checking point to remind us that something big about the Romulans is coming. The Chase also hints one of them talking that, maybe in the future, they can be in better terms.

Maybe Generations was the movie to do this. Kirk was there to link TNG with TOS and make the Federation start the peace negotiations with the R. Empire. After that, with First Contact, we have the new enemies, the Borg.

This logical step was not followed, though.

Instead, they destroyed Romulus. After they also destroyed Vulcan.

See, STVI handles this plot very well: the destruction of Praxis isn't there for shock value. The Klingons destroyed the moon, and before their whole race dies, they have no other choice but to wave their white flag and open communication with the Federation. We see how both the Federation and the Klingon Empire are reluctant, that's the main plot. We see the real result in TNG (even though TNG was released before STVI.)

But in NuTrek, the destruction of Vulcan and Romulus is exceptional. And how it was handled in Picard is even worse.

The thing to remember is the “Klingon Conflict” goes hand in hand with the ebb and flow of the Cold War. It’s Neoliberalism vs Militarism that is the overall thing Star Trek tends to be “about”, and when the Cold War reached its final detente so too did the Klingons cease to be the ultimate bad guy. And afterwards, because the world was now monopolar for much of the 90’s there was no real replacement - not until the Dominion, which was really an enemy for the sake of there being an enemy so as to fully compete with B5. The Borg are mostly just on the perhipery with no real plan, the Romulans never actually pose a 1:1 threat, the Cardassians are too busy being cartoonish nazis, and Voyager’s antagonist races are too far away.

This is why the conflict keeps returning to the Klingons, as despite the hatchet being buried they are in fact the real antagonists of Star Trek. Not just for being famous, but for representing the most basic ideology the Federation stands against - a society built around war.

tl:dr, Star Trek should have ended with Undiscovered Country.

 

[Captain Syrup]

you may want to pause to consider if you want Garak explained or if you want him a pile of mystery

I like to infer what happened.

Tain says Garak betrayed him. Garak doesn't admit to it, but can't quite bring himself to deny it, either.

Garak was a key witness against Dukat's father. Seems unlikely that Garak would then turn around and betray his government. More likely, some (or all) of his stories to Bashir are true: Garak embarassed Tain, which contributed to Tain's ousting. Tain was put out to pasture.

Add to that the fact that Garak was not just a prominent Cardassian, he was a chief interrogator and patriot in his own right. My theory: There was an informal norm against using a rival department (Central Command) to antagonize fellow operatives. The alternative would be a hasty arrest, show trial, and execution. So Garak was marooned somewhere Dukat can't touch him.

 

[XYZpdq]

I like to infer what happened.

Tain says Garak betrayed him. Garak doesn't admit to it, but can't quite bring himself to deny it, either. Garak was a key witness against Dukat's father, so it seems unlikely that Garak would betray his government.

More than likely, some (or all) of his stories to Bashir are true: Garak embarassed Tain, which contributed to Tain's ousting. Tain was put out to pasture. Add to that the fact that Garak was not just a prominent Cardassian, he was a chief interrogator and patriot in his own right. My theory: There was an informal norm in the Order against using a rival agency (Cental Command) to antagonize fellow operatives. The alternative would be a hasty arrest, show trial, and execution. So Garak was sent someplace Dukat couldn't touch him.

Like I said, there is an understandable desire to have Garak's backstory as [here there be monsters] so if you want to leave it that way don't read A Stitch In Time. I seen about a 50/50 split of Garak fans who want to really have all the mysteries made clear, and I can respect it.
It's a very fun read if you want to get DC Fontana balls-deep in ayyy cultures and shit, and it is a pretty satisfying pile of answers.

 

[Flexo]

The Prime Directive made sense when applied to Garth of Izar. Insanely overpowered despot who preyed on the weak.

In TNG, it ceased to make sense because Feds were spying on and trading with pre-warp civilizations. Plus they were giving territory away to the Cardassians.

The prime directive is best as a guideline - "whatever you do, interfere as little as possible"

Like if you're going to stop some kind of supervolcano, maybe doing it safely from orbit where no primitives can see you INSTEAD OF PARKING THE BIG ASS SHIP IN THE OCEAN JUST OFF THE COASTLINE! (geez Into Darkness is the worst Kelvin film)

You also don't want to become the equivalent of "helicopter parents" and constantly coddling new species either. As long as it's not an extinction level event, letting species face challenges and overcome them is how you get them ready for the big galactic stage.

As a writing tool, it shouldn't be a stupid "we can't violate it!" conflict only to have the episode end with them violating it, but rather should be like red tape the characters have to work around. Oh extinction is going to happen to this planet? Well if they were warp capable we could just do X but they're not. So how do we fix this without anybody knowing...

 

[BScCollateral]

The prime directive is best as a guideline - "whatever you do, interfere as little as possible"

My personal take is the Prime Directive is a compromise.
You've got Earthlings who want everyone to be a democracy, you've got Vulcans who want everyone to be logical, you've got Tellarites and Andorians with whatever their core cultural values are. These are all contradictory, and the only strategy everyone can agree on is "Let them alone."

 

[Michael Wade]

Regarding the DS9 novels I can wholeheartedly recommend A Stitch in Time by Andrew Robinson to anyone who enjoyed Garak and the Cardassians in general. Considering Robinson was "only" Garak's actor the storytelling and prose is surprisingly solid and gives great insight into everyone's favourite plain and simple tailor's past! Out of all the DS9 novels it's probably my personal favourite. I wouldn't say the novels are as good as the show and sometimes they can be downright exceptional lol, but alot of them are quite fun to read especially if you just miss that very specific and slightly campy DS9 vibe.

I think my only question is does he mention that bit where he talks about letting the kids go? Ive always viewed that as a bit of truth wrapped in a lie. It's not what got him exiled, but its what he felt was his greatest mistake in the heat of the moment. Maybe even something that he viewed as the start of his failures.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

As a writing tool, it shouldn't be a stupid "we can't violate it!" conflict only to have the episode end with them violating it, but rather should be like red tape the characters have to work around. Oh extinction is going to happen to this planet? Well if they were warp capable we could just do X but they're not. So how do we fix this without anybody knowing...

Pen Pals was a good case of it because the society they found wasn't primitive, despite being pre-warp. I think their world was similar to ours in development, so it makes for a good guess: if we're about to die, will any alien force save us or we aren't worth it for not being "developed" enough?

 

[Captain Syrup]

I think my only question is does he mention that bit where he talks about letting the kids go? Ive always viewed that as a bit of truth wrapped in a lie.

Interesting to note: When Garak frowns, he is usually shown to be telling the truth.

Either way, it's a great monologue. Stalin's Kremlin was the same way: an off-color joke might buy you a trip to Siberia.

 

[Porthos]

I think my only question is does he mention that bit where he talks about letting the kids go? Ive always viewed that as a bit of truth wrapped in a lie. It's not what got him exiled, but its what he felt was his greatest mistake in the heat of the moment. Maybe even something that he viewed as the start of his failures.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=FWiWD3reF8Q:83

Garak was, of course, "lying" to Bashir in that scene. I'm pretty sure the fact that he retells the same story differently three times across the course of this episode is to allude to the "repetive epic" Cardassian novel they discuss in the teaser. Despite mentally and physically detoriating he is still Garak and thus a very extra and wonderfully dramatical faggot (I say this affectionately) and feeds Bashir all the necessary clues he needs to get him help without actually asking for help. If this is because he is too proud or because of Cardassian cultural norms is up for debate, but it's his way of doing things. That's also why he does the "especially the lies" iconic line at the end of the episode. The man is dying, and in typical Garak fashion decides to make a game out of it til the bitter end. It's very intrigueing.

In the novel Garak does retell versions of this story to other characters but I don't think he's ever clear about this. The thing about the novel is that it's in the form of a letter to Bashir, so I would consider Garak an unreliable narrator, even if he does appear to be genuine at first. The "real" reason for his exile is... well quite hilarious to me, though it's pretty much implied that it was just tip of the iceberg of his disobedience towards Tain and the Obsidian Order. Apparently he had an affair with a married woman and was involved in the death of Dukat's father, disobeying direct orders. Then he kills the woman's husband in self defense. It's pretty basic, but also Tain clearly just sees him as too much of a liability, so he sends him off to Terok Nor. I do think it's hilarious Garak essentially tells Bashir "yeah i got exiled for cucking some dude". The novel also was supposed to have to more explicit sexual and gay shit, but it didn't get past the publisher. Not sure if that's for better or worse.

 

[Flexo]

Regarding the DS9 novels I can wholeheartedly recommend A Stitch in Time by Andrew Robinson to anyone who enjoyed Garak and the Cardassians in general. Considering Robinson was "only" Garak's actor the storytelling and prose is surprisingly solid and gives great insight into everyone's favourite plain and simple tailor's past! Out of all the DS9 novels it's probably my personal favourite. I wouldn't say the novels are as good as the show and sometimes they can be downright exceptional lol, but alot of them are quite fun to read especially if you just miss that very specific and slightly campy DS9 vibe.

SFDebris has been doing an audio book version of it for most of this year so I've been revisiting the book.

It still holds up well.

Despite mentally and physically detoriating he is still Garak and thus a very extra and wonderfully dramatical faggot (I say this affectionately) and feeds Bashir all the necessary clues he needs to get him help without actually asking for help. If this is because he is too proud or because of Cardassian cultural norms is up for debate, but it's his way of doing things. That's also why he does the "especially the lies" iconic line at the end of the episode. The man is dying, and in typical Garak fashion decides to make a game out of it til the bitter end. It's very intrigueing.

It should also be noted (especially in light of the books) that Garak is very much of the "remain in a position of power" mindset. If he is honest and upfront with Bashir, then he leaves himself exposed, vulnerable, and Bashir would have some power of him (like when Odo confessed his homesickness to Garak - Garak then had power of Odo). So Garak is driving Bashir to 1) really and TRULY aim to help him for no thought of reward or Garak "owing" him. and 2) for Bashir to totally work it out on his own without Garak ending up in a vulnerable position by exposing too much.

This really goes a lot into his character. The truth for him is like the ultimate A-bomb. He lies so much because he sees the truth as an option of last resort - because once you deploy it, you have no more alternatives.

In the novel Garak does retell versions of this story to other characters but I don't think he's ever clear about this. The thing about the novel is that it's in the form of a letter to Bashir, so I would consider Garak an unreliable narrator, even if he does appear to be genuine at first. The "real" reason for his exile is... well quite hilarious to me, though it's pretty much implied that it was just tip of the iceberg of his disobedience towards Tain and the Obsidian Order. Apparently he had an affair with a married woman and was involved in the death of Dukat's father, disobeying direct orders. Then he kills the woman's husband in self defense. It's pretty basic, but also Tain clearly just sees him as too much of a liability, so he sends him off to Terok Nor. I do think it's hilarious Garak essentially tells Bashir "yeah i got exiled for cucking some dude". The novel also was supposed to have to more explicit sexual and gay shit, but it didn't get past the publisher. Not sure if that's for better or worse.

Yeah, you can still have fun wondering how much of what Garak is telling in the book is true or not.

As always, I will ever insist that Garak was "jobsexual" and only gay or straight as he needed to be for the task at hand.

Maybe when he was in school and young he might have had a genuine crush or feelings, but after going through the academy (and what happened with his "parents") I would definitely say that he would suppress and be suspicious of anything approaching real affection. Or any emotion that might compromise his service to Cardassia.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

Watching now the TNG movies.

Movies Troi > TNG Troi.

(And no, she didn't crash the ship, it's funny we all say so, though.)

 

[Clown College]

Awww Camille Saviola who played Kai Opaka passed away.

Camille Saviola Dies: ‘Star Trek: Deep Space Nine’, Broadway Actor Was 71

UPDATE, with cause of death Camille Saviola, whose many stage and TV roles included the Bajoran religious leader Kai Opaka in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, the mother of the hapless Turtle in Entoura…

deadline.com

 

[Captain Syrup]

Awww Camille Saviola who played Kai Opaka passed away

Hardly the best-written role, but she made the most of it. Certainly one of the more likable Bajorans.

 

[Art Kassul]

Awww Camille Saviola who played Kai Opaka passed away.

Camille Saviola Dies: ‘Star Trek: Deep Space Nine’, Broadway Actor Was 71

UPDATE, with cause of death Camille Saviola, whose many stage and TV roles included the Bajoran religious leader Kai Opaka in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, the mother of the hapless Turtle in Entoura…

deadline.com

And yet Kai Winn still lives. Stupid universe.

 

[Captain Syrup]

And yet Kai Winn still lives. Stupid universe.

At least Mike Ehrmantraut endures. And he has (some) hair.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

I finally watched Nemesis.

Gonna be honest: I didn't hate it. In fact, I kinda liked it. I will acknowledge that is very flawed, though. And as what follows this is Picard, it makes sense why the show is bad.

First, what I liked:

The best scene, for me, it's when the Enterprise rammed the Romulan ship. It looked badass. And it was funny this happened with Troi driving. Again.

Data became human with the ultimate human act: sacrifice.

The moment Riker leaves made me cry a bit, end of an era indeed. And it was, imo, more emotional than Data's death. Star Trek TNG is Picard, Number One, and the crew. I liked the scenes of the crew during Will and Troi's wedding. They aren't just colleagues, they are a family. I liked Guinan's cameo and I'm mad they didn't include Wesley's, even if I don't like Wheaton.

Now, what I hated.

Shitson or whatever's his name is: him being a clone doesn't add anything to the plot. Just make him some random Romulan who wants to destroy Earth and humans. They don't need more reasons than just being romulans. If they wanted to give him an extra reason to go after Picard, there are so many other plots that can work better.

Here is my take: make him a random human kid who, along other kids, was kidnapped by the Romulans and tortured by their scientists who wanted to learn more about humans and how to kill them. That's why he would want to kill humans, because they never tried to save them.

The movie ends with a brief approach between the Romulans and the Federation. But I felt we needed a bit more exploration of Romulan politics besides Shitson. We had that pretty Romulan lady, but we need more of whatever was the political context. Pity we didn't see them.

B4 feels out of place at first, but we later know the reason is because Data dies. Yet, this is barely ever touched. Data's death is too sudden and it's just for the sake of it. We could have used some exploration of his humanity through this new brother.

Now, Picard the show.

I guess that whoever wrote the first season watched this movie and tried to follow from it without properly understanding either the plot or the characters.

First, I remember RLM said that Picard was oddly obsessed over Data when they were never particularly close. I guess that the fact that Data sacrificed himself to save Picard changed things, but I don't think Picard would feel particularly guilty. That's not the kind of person Picard is. He would likely embrace that he has a second chance with B4 and pay homage to his friend by helping this new android to follow Data's steps.

Destroying Romulus seemed more of a waste of a good plot and, worst, really bad writing. They didn't know what to do with them and perhaps thought that kililng them all would subvert expectations... because that didn't happen with Praxis or Vulcan... We already saw the seeds for it in TNG and Nemesis was the most obvious opportunity to do so.

Either way, I did like this movie, and I'm surprised I did.

Maybe I'll watch Picard... maybe.

 

[Captain Syrup]

Shitson or whatever's his name is: him being a clone doesn't add anything to the plot.

Shitzon should have just been Picard's son. A test-tube baby, cooked up during "The Neutral Zone".

The scenes of Patrick studying Tom's face are painful; all they do is reenforce how dissimilar they are. Baird really thought Trekkies are morons.

First, I remember RLM said that Picard was oddly obsessed over Data when they were never particularly close.

Mike contradicts himself a few times in that review. Later, he chides Picard for not fighting the synth ban after arguing so passionately for android rights (in "Measure of a Man").

 

[UnKillFill]

I just realized, I know how they could have made Nemesis at very least *not* suck so much by only changing one thing about it...

"Shinzon" (and that name is fucking stupid, give him a better name.) Should not have been a younger clone of Picard at all.
He should have been a younger clone of Kirk or Spock.
And you can't tell me that the Romulans didn't have access to both of their DNA. We've all seen "The Enterprise Incident," lol.

No, I don't know who they should have cast in that role, but it still would have been an overall improvement.

 

[HarryHowler]

I think there were some good ideas in Nemesis, they just didn't come through in the execution, and then it was further hampered when they cut the plot to pieces in the editing room to sell it as more of an action movie.

The main nature versus nurture plot theme was handled in the most dirt-simple manner possible, with Picard being a good person because he had a good upbringing, and Shinzon being a bad person because he had a bad upbringing. They could have at least done something like revealing Picard's childhood was actually kinda shitty because he had such a terrible relationship with his father and brother, making him want to be the better person, while Shinzon was adopted by a great Romulan family and had a comfortable upbringing, but the lack of challenge in his life just contributed to his inferiority complex.

Hell, fucking Red Dwarf managed to play around with that plot idea far more in the space of 25 minutes than Nemesis did in two hours!