Sperg about comic books here

[Overly Serious]

Though I agree, the problem is you're not reading LOTR and suddenly have to check out ASOIAF; you're reading ASOIAF but only the John Snow chapters.

It sucks, but they're putting out a large fiction. You can stick to only a part of it, but sooner or later it's gonna require reading a fucking Sansa chapter.

Well that is the problem, sure. But I can make it their problem not mine by just no longer buying their comics. Ultimately, if they're going to try and force an issue of be a super-dedicated fan or don't be a fan at all, the majority of people are going to pick the latter.

Plus, frankly, they don't do it well. I get what you're saying when you adapt my analogy. You're saying they're all the same universe so they're more akin to different strands of LotR than jumping between series like LotR and GoT. But I chose my analogy carefully: Whether we're following Frodo and Sam in LotR or Merry and Pippin in Fangorn forest or Aragorn and companions at Helm's Deep, they are all thematically in concert with each other, moving at an appropriate pace to support each other. My original analogy is fine because what Marvel and DC do is more akin to suddenly ripping up one storyline and dragging it kicking and screaming into a whole other context and rewriting entire characters to fit.

 

[Cool kitties club]

Finished pre-zero hour legion of super-heroes. Approximately 460 issues. Will write a full retrospective soon on each era. Kind of a shame DC did such a solid and popular book dirty. I was pretty into it from volume 2 to about issue 40 of volume 4 then it went off the rails till issue 61 and DC rebooted it. Kind of a shame that so many plot threads were left unresolved

 

[TchPiKinmup]

Finished pre-zero hour legion of super-heroes. Approximately 460 issues. Will write a full retrospective soon on each era. Kind of a shame DC did such a solid and popular book dirty. I was pretty into it from volume 2 to about issue 40 of volume 4 then it went off the rails till issue 61 and DC rebooted it. Kind of a shame that so many plot threads were left unresolved
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LoSH ruled, all the way to the end of the Zero Hero reboot team. DnA really got screwed by DC, allowing Geoff Johns to half-assedly bring back the original version. The continuity was already a mess and Johns (followed by Waid's awful reboot) made it utterly impossible. Add in the poorly timed cartoon series (just as the DCAU was falling apart and DC was caught up in legal battles over the "Superboy" name) and it's been a bad century for the Legion.

 

[MirrorNoir]

LoSH ruled, all the way to the end of the Zero Hero reboot team. DnA really got screwed by DC, allowing Geoff Johns to half-assedly bring back the original version. The continuity was already a mess and Johns (followed by Waid's awful reboot) made it utterly impossible. Add in the poorly timed cartoon series (just as the DCAU was falling apart and DC was caught up in legal battles over the "Superboy" name) and it's been a bad century for the Legion.

Obviously you didn't read all of the Archie/94 Legion.

The 94 Reboot started strong but it was clear that the bullshit of Waid and the Bierbaums (IE anyone not part of the Adventure Comics era team were illegitimate and Waid's mancrush on Lyle Norg and the shitting on Lighting Lad) was still in full effect. This incarnation peaked with the Dark Circle six parter, which had a bullshit ending where they pulled Brainiac 5's mom out of nowhere as the head of the Dark Circle and never fully recovered. And the pre-DNA team shitted all over fans on their way out by the way they brought back Wildfire purely to rape him beyond all repair in terms of shitting on him to spite the character and the fans/legion fandom IE those who prefer the 70s/80s era team.

DNA's run was a god-damn trainwreck of fail and AIDS and Legion Lost basically should, for all intents and purposesm should have killed the franchise deader than disco. And yet.... Legion World basically showed that DNA COULD write the Legion and give a fuck about writing a GOOD Legion book; sadly it's never been reprinted because reprints of their run stall out because Legion Lost is THAT bad of a story that no reprint line has been able to get past that story publication-wise due to bad sales of that trade.

The Legion is a trainwreck; some good ideas but also some bullshit ones. IE Sneckie turning into a naga and her going insane at no longer being a full-on snake. And the less said the better about Superboy or DNA bastardizing the Great Darkness Saga with their remake of it, which was so fucking bad that it made the Quiet Darkness seem like high art.

By the time the hammer fell with Waid coming back to reboot it, it was a mercy kill. Though Waid fucked up shit so badly that DC let Brad Meltzer (who BTW is the person responsible for restoring the OG Legion not Geoff Johns) say "fuck Waid and fuck his shitty Skins rip-off Legion" and bring back the classic team and restore the classic canon.

 

[Cool kitties club]

Here are my thoughts on the different pre-zero hour Legion of Super-Heroes eras (part 1):

Spoiler: Pre Adv Comics 300 Stuff

Super-Hero origins are often interesting just for the simple fact that many older characters early days are radically different then their iconic selves. With the Legion's case this really isn't true. Minus some aesthetics differences like costumes and flight belts the core idea of the Legion and the Legionnaires 3 power sets are pretty much fully formed here. There is some random background legionaries which look nothing like the future legionnaires, but the digital recoloring recolors some of them to resemble future members. Oh I did find these panels funny where the Kent townhouse is just randomly sandwiched between the robot factory.



Most of these early appearance are standard silver age but there are some details which are funny and/or provide significant continuity issues later one:

1. Adventure Comics 267 where superboy can instantly change elements into other elements with a super shout



2. Action Comics 267 where Supergirl meets with the "children" of the Legionnaires Superboy met who have the same name and appearance as the normal Legionaries. This will just be retconned to Supergirl having met the same Legion.



3. Adventure Comics 282 where Star Boy first appears having the exact same powers as Superboy. This will be retconned to him just having mass increasing powers


4. Adventure Comics 293 introduces the Legion of Super-Pets an idea too based to exist in 2023 woke comics. Can't have young white boys remembering their blood memory of when cats and dogs could talk and shit.


5. Action Comics 289 where Supergirl tries to hook Superman up with an adult Saturn Girl and we get this gem of a panel.

Spoiler: Adventure Comics Pre Jim Shooter

Starting with issue 300 the Legion becomes a regular feature of Adventure Comics and continues to be standard silver age stuff. This may sound like a critique but I do quite enjoy silver age DC comics I'll just be here forever if I try to pick out every funny or weird like I did earlier. Despite this there are some storylines here which hint at the Legion becoming something greater. Most of these stories are written by Jerry Siegel or Edward Hamilton. In issue #304 we get the first "modern" super-hero death with the death of Lightning Lad for context the next time a currently published DC book would be the Doom Patrol in 1968 (feel free to correct me if either one of these facts are wrong).


In issue 308 we get a tease of Lightning Lad returning only to find out its his sister impersonating him (how long until this is used as evidence to make Lightning Lass a trans man in the next Legion reboot). It isn't until issue 312 that Lightning Lad finally returns. This seems pretty generic now but I think it may have been a first of a kind story. The actual death story was written by Jerry Siegel which is ironic considering his most famous creation, Superman, dying is what would set the superhero death and rebirth machine into high gear.



While Lightning Lad was dead there was a weirdly ominous story in Adventure Comics 310 where a mysterious masked man kills all of the Legionaries but Superboy. Hes revealed to be Mxyzptlk V and Superboy reverses his magic bring everyone back to life but having this happen while Lightning Lad is dead probably convinced some kids that the entire Legion was dead for real. I do find this issue has a genuine feeling of dread you don't get a lot from Silver Age comics.







There is even a multi issue subplot involving the Time Trapper and the iron curtain of time which starts in issue 317 and continues until issue 338 where it sadly ends in a baby legionaries stories complete with the utterly strange way infants talk in silver age DC. I do like his epic dinosaur HQ though.


The other major multi-parter is the 2 part Computo story in Adventure 240-241 which feels genuinely epic and has some pretty tough stakes. It features one of triplicate girl's 3 bodies being killed, a death which would remain permeant until the reboot.



The most impressive story here is issue #342 where Star Boy kills a villain in self defense and is forced to undergo a trial. Despite the cover showing dream girl and superboy mocking Star boy they are actually on his side. Its somewhat interesting seeing Superboy defend Starboy when the pre crisis Superman ended with him saying no one has the right to kill in Whatever Happened to the man of Tomorrow.

Next time I'll cover the Shooter period on Adventure Comics up till the end of Superboy and the Legion of Super heroes.

 

[MirrorNoir]

Venom 18: More Beyonder shit as we learn that Knull, the "King in Black" is actually the Beyonder aka the Ivory Kings opposite "The Onyx Kings" and Eddie's going to be tied into their bullshit.

I swear to Christ they need to force Ewing off of Venom already. I'm tired of him forcing his cosmic bullshit that got his previous books canceled into Venom. Give the book back to Michilinie and focus on Eddie and his son and market it HARD to people who are pissed off at the rape of Superman via Eddie/Brock being the Marvel version of Clark and John.

 

[CowPox]

I've never read any walking dead comics but picked up the Neegan one shot just to check it out, seems rather tame compared to stuff like crossed, only halfway through.

 

[Nick Obre]

Venom 18: More Beyonder shit as we learn that Knull, the "King in Black" is actually the Beyonder aka the Ivory Kings opposite "The Onyx Kings" and Eddie's going to be tied into their bullshit.

I swear to Christ they need to force Ewing off of Venom already. I'm tired of him forcing his cosmic bullshit that got his previous books canceled into Venom. Give the book back to Michilinie and focus on Eddie and his son and market it HARD to people who are pissed off at the rape of Superman via Eddie/Brock being the Marvel version of Clark and John.

"Knull is the darkness before the universe and the origin of the Necro Sword and of Wraith's parasite things and the Symbiotes and caused the existence of Knowhere, and he's also the opposite of the Captain Universe force"

"Also Knull is the Onyx King and the opposite of the Ivory Kings, aka Beyonders"

"Also the Beyonders are the creation of some lame fuck called "the Lost one""

"But also the Celestials created the Beyonders"

"But also the Celestials were gonna hire Knull"

"But also both the Beyonders and Knull went off and killed some Celestials"

Please let's calm down with the cosmic rectons

 

[jspit2.0]

Finished pre-zero hour legion of super-heroes. Approximately 460 issues. Will write a full retrospective soon on each era. Kind of a shame DC did such a solid and popular book dirty. I was pretty into it from volume 2 to about issue 40 of volume 4 then it went off the rails till issue 61 and DC rebooted it. Kind of a shame that so many plot threads were left unresolved
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It was a fucking mess by the time Giffen and Bierbums got involved. Two teams with the same characters. Earth was destroyed. A massive five year later time loop. That doesn't mean there weren't casualties of good stories. Waid's Valor, Legionaires. It ended well.

@MirrorNoir that was almost what, a decade in? The Archie Legion was solid for years and how can anyone hate DnA's run or the risks it took, especially with the hindsight of what came after, is beyond me. Waid and Geoff Johns and Nostalgia.

 

[Rupin]

"Knull is the darkness before the universe and the origin of the Necro Sword and of Wraith's parasite things and the Symbiotes and caused the existence of Knowhere, and he's also the opposite of the Captain Universe force"

"Also Knull is the Onyx King and the opposite of the Ivory Kings, aka Beyonders"

"Also the Beyonders are the creation of some lame fuck called "the Lost one""

"But also the Celestials created the Beyonders"

"But also the Celestials were gonna hire Knull"

"But also both the Beyonders and Knull went off and killed some Celestials"

Please let's calm down with the cosmic rectons

I liked it better when venom was just an alien slime from the moon who just wanted to eat people.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I liked it better when venom was just an alien slime from the moon who just wanted to eat people.

An unfortunate issue when characters get too popular, then everyone wants to put their spin on them. At least Wolverine never got the "He's actually a Wolverine that mutated into a man" backstory made canon.

 

[Tor Lugosi]

An unfortunate issue when characters get too popular, then everyone wants to put their spin on them. At least Wolverine never got the "He's actually a Wolverine that mutated into a man" backstory made canon.

instead he got an origin story about being NTR'd by a lumberjack and then later some dumb shit about a secret society of werewolves or some shit

seriously, Wolverine: Origins (both the mini and the on-going) were really dumb

 

[MirrorNoir]

It was a fucking mess by the time Giffen and Bierbums got involved. Two teams with the same characters. Earth was destroyed. A massive five year later time loop. That doesn't mean there weren't casualties of good stories. Waid's Valor, Legionaires. It ended well.

@MirrorNoir that was almost what, a decade in? The Archie Legion was solid for years and how can anyone hate DnA's run or the risks it took, especially with the hindsight of what came after, is beyond me. Waid and Geoff Johns and Nostalgia.

Archie Legion sold well until Dark Circle, as afterwards the writing team didn't know what the fuck they were doing. And their parting"fuck you" with Wildfire just cemented a sense that the reboot had gone to hell.

DNA's first two arcs were garbage, blew up shit that technically DIDN'T NEED blowing up, and reeked of embarrassment that they got stuck writing Legion and being told "make this book sell or else!".

And Legion Lost (the mini and not the superior New 52 book) is an abomination in the eyes of God and saw multiple acts of character assassination, character derailments, and stories that made zero sense and made everyone look far far far far worse than they should have. There's a fucking reason WHY reprints of DNA's run stall out at Legion Lost, as it's THAT FUCKING BAD, made worse in that DNA explicitly stated "they were trying to bring in new fans" in a story that was anti-new fan friendly as fuck.

And again, it sucked so badly that they probably got told "if Legion Worlds fails you are fired" and actually churned out their first GOOD Legion book. And The Legion clearly was written with the eye towards "bringing back fans" who ragequit after Legion Lost.

But the damage was done, especially after they got cocky again and did their Great Darkness rip-off that sucked balls.

 

[DaBigBopper]

Venom 18: More Beyonder shit as we learn that Knull, the "King in Black" is actually the Beyonder aka the Ivory Kings opposite "The Onyx Kings" and Eddie's going to be tied into their bullshit.

I swear to Christ they need to force Ewing off of Venom already. I'm tired of him forcing his cosmic bullshit that got his previous books canceled into Venom. Give the book back to Michilinie and focus on Eddie and his son and market it HARD to people who are pissed off at the rape of Superman via Eddie/Brock being the Marvel version of Clark and John.

"Knull is the darkness before the universe and the origin of the Necro Sword and of Wraith's parasite things and the Symbiotes and caused the existence of Knowhere, and he's also the opposite of the Captain Universe force"

"Also Knull is the Onyx King and the opposite of the Ivory Kings, aka Beyonders"

"Also the Beyonders are the creation of some lame fuck called "the Lost one""

"But also the Celestials created the Beyonders"

"But also the Celestials were gonna hire Knull"

"But also both the Beyonders and Knull went off and killed some Celestials"

Please let's calm down with the cosmic rectons

I don't understand Ewing's appeal. He does surface levels appeal to old continuity, but then just rewrites characters to fit his notions of what they should be. There's no consistency with him and he over complicates simple shit. Worst of all he's a Stormfag.

 

[Cool kitties club]

It was a fucking mess by the time Giffen and Bierbums got involved. Two teams with the same characters. Earth was destroyed. A massive five year later time loop. That doesn't mean there weren't casualties of good stories. Waid's Valor, Legionaires. It ended well.

I was a fan of the Giffen stuff up until earth was destroyed. The Mordru stuff by the Bierbums was interesting in concept but boring in practice, and the Tom McCraw again had some cool concepts like the heroes of lalor coming back, but in practice it was just 90s action slop. Really didnt like any valor comic. I liked the Bierbums legionnaires book for the first 8 or so issues then it got stuck in a dumb arc until it spontaneously ended in zero hour. I will say the reboot so far was carried alot of the ton and visual stylings of the Bierbums legionnaires.

Tom Bierbum has written commentary on every Legion issue he wrote on his livejournal which is an interesting read to get a handle of some of his and Mary's unrealized plans (like tying the bounty entity to the villain named bounty from the old composite legionnaires story and having it possess duplicate boy)



As a an endning to it all I found Zero Hour and The End of an Era disappointing. I like zero hour and its tie in set overall but as a Legion finale it did them all dirty. The fucking Team Titans were more important to the story then the decades long franchise being rebooted. Then end of an era just feels like spinning its wheels until the finale. I wish it had kept the idea of Mordru and Glorith rewriting everything or having characters change between their different versions more.

 

[MirrorNoir]

In defense of "End of an Era"

They kept Wildfire around to the final moments instead of blinking him out at random ala Dawnstar and Timberwolf

Also, even though they completely and utterly fucked up the planned Phase arc, they asspulled a version of Tinya out of time before her "death" so Jo/Ultra Boy could have a reunion before everything ceased to exist.

 

[jspit2.0]

Archie Legion sold well until Dark Circle, as afterwards the writing team didn't know what the fuck they were doing. And their parting"fuck you" with Wildfire just cemented a sense that the reboot had gone to hell.

DNA's first two arcs were garbage, blew up shit that technically DIDN'T NEED blowing up, and reeked of embarrassment that they got stuck writing Legion and being told "make this book sell or else!".

And Legion Lost (the mini and not the superior New 52 book) is an abomination in the eyes of God and saw multiple acts of character assassination, character derailments, and stories that made zero sense and made everyone look far far far far worse than they should have. There's a fucking reason WHY reprints of DNA's run stall out at Legion Lost, as it's THAT FUCKING BAD, made worse in that DNA explicitly stated "they were trying to bring in new fans" in a story that was anti-new fan friendly as fuck.

And again, it sucked so badly that they probably got told "if Legion Worlds fails you are fired" and actually churned out their first GOOD Legion book. And The Legion clearly was written with the eye towards "bringing back fans" who ragequit after Legion Lost.

But the damage was done, especially after they got cocky again and did their Great Darkness rip-off that sucked balls.

In defense of "End of an Era"

They kept Wildfire around to the final moments instead of blinking him out at random ala Dawnstar and Timberwolf

Also, even though they completely and utterly fucked up the planned Phase arc, they asspulled a version of Tinya out of time before her "death" so Jo/Ultra Boy could have a reunion before everything ceased to exist.

We're going to agree to disagree. I liked the DnA Legion well enough. It felt like FYL to me, which took allot of risks, with some of them really not paying off. Considering Geoff Johns and Dan Didio were going to nuke it anyway in a couple of years, I consider it a last gasp.

End of an Era was awesome. Stuart Immomen, tons of fan service, and really how at that point are you going to wrap decades of storytelling in six issues?

I was a fan of the Giffen stuff up until earth was destroyed. The Mordru stuff by the Bierbums was interesting in concept but boring in practice, and the Tom McCraw again had some cool concepts like the heroes of lalor coming back, but in practice it was just 90s action slop.

McCraw is someone I haven't heard mentioned enough.

Giffen was partially responsible for the Mordru stuff and even though I didn't like it, his decision to tie in Amethyst at least kept her from being forgotten.

Really didnt like any valor comic.

Did you read the Waid Doran run? I thought it was pretty solid.

I liked the Bierbums legionnaires book for the first 8 or so issues then it got stuck in a dumb arc until it spontaneously ended in zero hour. I will say the reboot so far was carried alot of the ton and visual stylings of the Bierbums legionnaires.

Yeah. They shot themselves in the face with that. After years of dark, mature, continuity heavy stories; Legionaires with art by Sprouse was like a breath of fresh air. Of course people would demand that.

Tom Bierbum has written commentary on every Legion issue he wrote on his livejournal which is an interesting read to get a handle of some of his and Mary's unrealized plans (like tying the bounty entity to the villain named bounty from the old composite legionnaires story and having it possess duplicate boy)

View attachment 5000786

As a an endning to it all I found Zero Hour and The End of an Era disappointing. I like zero hour and its tie in set overall but as a Legion finale it did them all dirty. The fucking Team Titans were more important to the story then the decades long franchise being rebooted. Then end of an era just feels like spinning its wheels until the finale. I wish it had kept the idea of Mordru and Glorith rewriting everything or having characters change between their different versions more.

The problem is how do you end something like that in a way to satisfy everyone?

 

[CowPox]

instead he got an origin story about being NTR'd by a lumberjack and then later some dumb shit about a secret society of werewolves or some shit

seriously, Wolverine: Origins (both the mini and the on-going) were really dumb

Did they ever go back and retcon that origin as just another false memory? I had no idea it was a on going event, i recall reading it well over ten years ago...

 

[MoarEntropy]

You know what I'd love to see from Disney, since they own X-men now, A genuine multi-phase lead up to the X-Cutioners Song. If I'm honest that was probably the best full X saga after Xtintion Agenda. But XcS had so many marvel wide ripples. You'd need one movie to intro each of the X-teams and probably 3 movies for the main phase covering the 9 issue X-S story, and an Epi movie leading into more marvel shovel shit movies.
There's so many stories ripe for movie arcs, tbh Disney embaresses itself not making them.

 

[MirrorNoir]

Xcutioner's Song is impossible to adapt because it hinges on the whole Scott/Jean/Maddie triangle and the editorially mandated story of Scott/Maddie's kid being sent to the future to write him out of the X-Men book.

Best you could do would be to adapt the faux Legacy Virus two parter from X-Men Animated Series and the series finale (where Xavier gets shot). The former you could do as the plot of Deadpool 3 and the later you'd need build up to do.

Did they ever go back and retcon that origin as just another false memory? I had no idea it was a on going event, i recall reading it well over ten years ago...

The original Wolverine Origin mini that tells the story of Logan as a young man and his childhood, is still canon.

As for the stuff with Romulus and Wolverine being part wolf? After they brought Sabretooth back to life, Marvel IIRC did the whole "Romulus might be an unreliable narrator" song and dance to allow writers to basically ignore that entire arc and it's revelations.