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By the way, X-Men #14 was a steaming pile of dog shit....

Duggan quadrupling down on Iceman being a faggot complete with mean spirited "fuck you" to the fans wanting it undone

And Cyclops being "judged" had him not only slip back into Nazi Rightclops mode but shilling Jean Grey as a paragon of virtue bullshit.

As crappy as Gillen is, at least his X-Men run has shit actually fucking happened and doesn't actively insult readers.

At this point, I really fucking hope to Christ the endgame for Judgement Day is Tony bricking the resurrection protocol mental back-up tech as payback for Xavier mindraping Reed and so no one can come back to life ever again mutant-wise and Mr Sinister being all "fuck you" when they demand he bring back his clone farms to compensate. And for Wanda to shut down the secondary back-up (her heaven pocket dimension) when Xavier tries to mindwipe Tony in retaliation.
 
BetterFuckChuck said:
Was Jimmys Bastards any good or was it as shit as it looked
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I can't think of anything wrong with it, but it never grabbed me. And I think it got cancelled.

The funny thing was that despite supposedly being a spy thriller after James Bond, Jimmy's Bastards felt like regular superhero schlock with the weird villains and over the top adventures. All you had to do was put Jimmy into a costume, and Garth Ennis would finally have to admit he'd be a good superhero writer if he could just get over himself.

It was actually pretty different to want Ennis normally does. Not too over the top, a little light-hearted and seemed more focused on being fun than offensive. Which is something I've always wanted Ennis to do... and then I only got the first three issues, and I don't think I ever got around to reading the third.
 
Arthur Morgan said:
I can't think of anything wrong with it, but it never grabbed me. And I think it got cancelled.

The funny thing was that despite supposedly being a spy thriller after James Bond, Jimmy's Bastards felt like regular superhero schlock with the weird villains and over the top adventures. All you had to do was put Jimmy into a costume, and Garth Ennis would finally have to admit he'd be a good superhero writer if he could just get over himself.

It was actually pretty different to want Ennis normally does. Not too over the top, a little light-hearted and seemed more focused on being fun than offensive. Which is something I've always wanted Ennis to do... and then I only got the first three issues, and I don't think I ever got around to reading the third.
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I have said this and I'll say it again. I think comic writers have big sticks up their asses about muh superheroes

Spy thrillers are superhero stories with plot armor instead of powers. Magic and occult stories are just superhero stories without costumes. Monster stories are superhero stories where the bad guy is the only one with powers. All alien or steampunk shit is a superhero story in one way or another, with the races having enhanced powers or the gadgets bordering on fantastical magic ie superpowers

They can't write anything that doesn't require fantastical elements, so they should stop pretending to be anything higher than middlebrow. That's what annoys me about capeshit writers, I enjoy capeshit but especially in the modern day it asks so hard to be taken seriously but doesn't put in the leg work. Garth Ennis could never write a crime thriller. Millar could never write a rom com (and Trouble taught us that personally). Moore couldn't write a legal drama. Pat Mills couldn't write a historical drama. They all have to rely on capeshit-in-all-but-name tropes in order to write stories because they're secretly attracted to that kind of story-telling

It says a lot when writers that actually do respect superheroes, almost to a fascist degree like Frank Miller, can actually write non-capeshit like 300 or Kirkman's Walking Dead and get popular from it. Where these anti-capeshit writers never made anything that cant be regarded as such
 
> Lumps everything interesting under capeshit
> Laments that there are no 'heads and word balloons' legal drama comics
> Cites The Walking Dead as a good example of a comic with no fantastical elements

Yeah, okay, no.

Comics are a little like animation, IMO, in that they deal with fantastical and action subjects more often because they portray that fairly easily, in ways that live action and even prose might struggle with. Want to show a guy flying? Set up a complicated set of wires and greenscreens to hook Christopher Reeves up to, or spend a stupid amount of money on CG effects. Or nigga, just draw a guy flying.
I do understand that western comics are and have been hyperfocused on capeshit and I mean actual capeshit, not a bizarre list of 'cryptocapeshit' topics but what're ya gonna do? I'm sure there's something out there to scratch that itch, some obscure manga or band desinee? Or kickstarter's right over there, go get some use out of those failed bar exams.
 
Newman's Lovechild said:
> Lumps everything interesting under capeshit
> Laments that there are no 'heads and word balloons' legal drama comics
> Cites The Walking Dead as a good example of a comic with no fantastical elements

Yeah, okay, no.

Comics are a little like animation, IMO, in that they deal with fantastical and action subjects more often because they portray that fairly easily, in ways that live action and even prose might struggle with. Want to show a guy flying? Set up a complicated set of wires and greenscreens to hook Christopher Reeves up to, or spend a stupid amount of money on CG effects. Or nigga, just draw a guy flying.
I do understand that western comics are and have been hyperfocused on capeshit and I mean actual capeshit, not a bizarre list of 'cryptocapeshit' topics but what're ya gonna do? I'm sure there's something out there to scratch that itch, some obscure manga or band desinee? Or kickstarter's right over there, go get some use out of those failed bar exams.
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I think im not getting my point across. My point was that these artists shouldnt have shame in fantasy be it capeshit or magic. Plus Walking Dead I was considering not putting down but then I rationalized it as that zombies could easily be replaced with cannibals and serve the same purpose. A sorcerer isnt suddenly highbrow when it's not in costume, but either way the creators should realize that both capeshit and wandshit are fun to write and read and are more imaginitive was just my point. If they hate superheroes they should do more "boring" genres like you would call them

I still think there's potential in like completely non-fantastical comic books. Vertigo would just be a guy thats afraid of heights but the weird imagery contributes to it. You can make some weird imagery with comics. With animation too but the animation industry I've lost faith in producing great work for adults a long time ago

Pig Boss said:
Sounds like you guys should read Stray Bullets (Noire), Maze Agency (Detective), King of Spies(Thriller/Espionage) or Red Team (Conspiracy, Detective)
No capes, no fantasy shit. Just good, self-contained stories without any fantasy elements.
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I've been meaning to get into XIII as well, tho that's probably pretty fantastical. I dont care about that tho, I just wanna know is it any good? I know it ripped off Bourne hard but Bourne was never a comic
 
Newman's Lovechild said:
> Lumps everything interesting under capeshit
> Laments that there are no 'heads and word balloons' legal drama comics
> Cites The Walking Dead as a good example of a comic with no fantastical elements

Yeah, okay, no.

Comics are a little like animation, IMO, in that they deal with fantastical and action subjects more often because they portray that fairly easily, in ways that live action and even prose might struggle with. Want to show a guy flying? Set up a complicated set of wires and greenscreens to hook Christopher Reeves up to, or spend a stupid amount of money on CG effects. Or nigga, just draw a guy flying.
I do understand that western comics are and have been hyperfocused on capeshit and I mean actual capeshit, not a bizarre list of 'cryptocapeshit' topics but what're ya gonna do? I'm sure there's something out there to scratch that itch, some obscure manga or band desinee? Or kickstarter's right over there, go get some use out of those failed bar exams.
Click to expand...
Comics offer the most freedom out of all visual storytelling mediums. It's a shame that they are so underappreciated in the U.S. Big two and capeshit fanatics robbed comics from achieving their full potential. They pretty much drove the medium to a vegetative state.

Pig Boss said:
Sounds like you guys should read Stray Bullets (Noire), Maze Agency (Detective), King of Spies(Thriller/Espionage) or Red Team (Conspiracy, Detective)
No capes, no fantasy shit. Just good, self-contained stories without any fantasy elements.
Click to expand...
And Asterios Polyp. It's a rare case of a character study and man vs himself story in American comics. If you want to go across the pond, The Revenge of Count Skarbek is a mix of mystery, romance, adventure, and a courtroom drama. Plenty of good westerns to choose from too, the best out of recent European ones is probably Undertaker by Morison and Meyer.

BetterFuckChuck said:
I think im not getting my point across. My point was that these artists shouldnt have shame in fantasy be it capeshit or magic. Plus Walking Dead I was considering not putting down but then I rationalized it as that zombies could easily be replaced with cannibals and serve the same purpose. A sorcerer isnt suddenly highbrow when it's not in costume, but either way the creators should realize that both capeshit and wandshit are fun to write and read and are more imaginitive was just my point. If they hate superheroes they should do more "boring" genres like you would call them

I still think there's potential in like completely non-fantastical comic books. Vertigo would just be a guy thats afraid of heights but the weird imagery contributes to it. You can make some weird imagery with comics. With animation too but the animation industry I've lost faith in producing great work for adults a long time ago
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Fantastical elements do not automatically make stories lesser. Some of the best stories ever told have supernatural elements.
The problem in comics are people running the industry and what the most readership turned into. Writers churn out formulaic, self-indulgent trash about captain mutant-man and fanboys eagerly consume that slop. Some fanboys eventually enter the industry, and further contribute to the downward spiral. They happened to latch onto superheroes - probably because of circumstances created by CCA.
 
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Water-T said:
And Dragon Ball is a rip off of Superman with some Journey To West sprinkled in
  • Alien baby gets rocketed to Earth by his dad, who predicted his planet would be toast but no one believes him
  • Doesn't realize his alien heritage until early adulthood/late teens
  • Flies, has god-like strength, can channel almost limitless amounts of energy, has come back from the dead at least once.
  • Marries sassy Earth brunette
  • Hangs out with green shapeshifting alien who is one of the last of his race
  • Also hangs out with a wimpy human who manages to nail chicks above his pay grade
  • Superman is powered by the Sun. Goku turns into giant ape by the Moon
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well, DBZ was when they started with the Superman/Sci-Fi shit. It was more of a mystical feel in the original DB.
BetterFuckChuck said:
I have said this and I'll say it again. I think comic writers have big sticks up their asses about muh superheroes

Spy thrillers are superhero stories with plot armor instead of powers. Magic and occult stories are just superhero stories without costumes. Monster stories are superhero stories where the bad guy is the only one with powers. All alien or steampunk shit is a superhero story in one way or another, with the races having enhanced powers or the gadgets bordering on fantastical magic ie superpowers

They can't write anything that doesn't require fantastical elements, so they should stop pretending to be anything higher than middlebrow. That's what annoys me about capeshit writers, I enjoy capeshit but especially in the modern day it asks so hard to be taken seriously but doesn't put in the leg work. Garth Ennis could never write a crime thriller. Millar could never write a rom com (and Trouble taught us that personally). Moore couldn't write a legal drama. Pat Mills couldn't write a historical drama. They all have to rely on capeshit-in-all-but-name tropes in order to write stories because they're secretly attracted to that kind of story-telling

It says a lot when writers that actually do respect superheroes, almost to a fascist degree like Frank Miller, can actually write non-capeshit like 300 or Kirkman's Walking Dead and get popular from it. Where these anti-capeshit writers never made anything that cant be regarded as such
Click to expand...
Oh for sure, I don't mind capeshit stuff in my comics. I just don't like it when some retarded writer likes mocking capeshit despite over-relying on it. Like, give me more of Morrison's occult-influenced schizophrenia and weird takes on the stuff instead of Millar huffing his bullshit.
GoPro said:
Comics offer the most freedom out of all visual storytelling mediums. It's a shame that they are so underappreciated in the U.S. Big two and capeshit fanatics robbed comics from achieving their full potential. They pretty much drove the medium to a vegetative state.


And Asterios Polyp. It's a rare case of a character study and man vs himself story in American comics. If you want to go across the pod, The Revenge of Count Skarbek is a mix of mystery, romance, adventure, and a courtroom drama. Plenty of good westerns to choose from too, the best out of recent European ones is probably Undertaker by Morison and Meyer.


Fantastical elements do not automatically make stories lesser. Some of the best stories ever told have supernatural elements.
The problem in comics are people running the industry and what the most readership turned into. Writers churn out formulaic, self-indulgent trash about captain mutant-man and fanboys eagerly consume that slop. Some fanboys eventually enter the industry, and further contribute to the downward spiral. They happened to latch onto superheroes - probably because of circumstances created by CCA.
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ngl speaking of comics noone in america talks a lot about, I wish Classics Illustrated got more traction. I've seen copies of individual issues for sale in a strange number of third world countries.
 
Has anyone read "The one" from back in the eighties? Seems like there was a real push to put capeshit to bed back then via various forms of deconstruction of the format, at least by some of the writers and artists, no way of course that Marvel or DC were going to get behind that too hard.
 
Alexander Thaut said:
well, DBZ was when they started with the Superman/Sci-Fi shit. It was more of a mystical feel in the original DB.

Oh for sure, I don't mind capeshit stuff in my comics. I just don't like it when some retarded writer likes mocking capeshit despite over-relying on it. Like, give me more of Morrison's occult-influenced schizophrenia and weird takes on the stuff instead of Millar huffing his bullshit.
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Yea yea exactly
GoPro said:
Comics offer the most freedom out of all visual storytelling mediums. It's a shame that they are so underappreciated in the U.S. Big two and capeshit fanatics robbed comics from achieving their full potential. They pretty much drove the medium to a vegetative state.


And Asterios Polyp. It's a rare case of a character study and man vs himself story in American comics. If you want to go across the pond, The Revenge of Count Skarbek is a mix of mystery, romance, adventure, and a courtroom drama. Plenty of good westerns to choose from too, the best out of recent European ones is probably Undertaker by Morison and Meyer.


Fantastical elements do not automatically make stories lesser. Some of the best stories ever told have supernatural elements.
The problem in comics are people running the industry and what the most readership turned into. Writers churn out formulaic, self-indulgent trash about captain mutant-man and fanboys eagerly consume that slop. Some fanboys eventually enter the industry, and further contribute to the downward spiral. They happened to latch onto superheroes - probably because of circumstances created by CCA.
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i think there will be a boom in comics one day. Of course the mainstream is always shit
 
CowPox said:
Has anyone read "The one" from back in the eighties? Seems like there was a real push to put capeshit to bed back then via various forms of deconstruction of the format, at least by some of the writers and artists, no way of course that Marvel or DC were going to get behind that too hard.
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I picked up The One from the dollar bins of my comic shop about a decade ago when they got in a MASSIVE collection of back issues. It sucked.

Funnily enough, the mini got reprinted a couple of years back and there was an attempt by the usual suspects to shill it as a "lost masterpiece" and better than "Brat Pack" (Veitch's other indie super hero work).
 
CowPox said:
Has anyone read "The one" from back in the eighties? Seems like there was a real push to put capeshit to bed back then via various forms of deconstruction of the format, at least by some of the writers and artists, no way of course that Marvel or DC were going to get behind that too hard.
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just confirms my point that if they wanted to put capeshit to bed they shouldve made something else lol
 
You know, I've said it in this thread before and in various places, I'm really enjoying the X-Men Krakoa era overall, I disagree with most of the criticism it gets, I feel a lot of it comes from things taken out of context or made to seem worse than they are, I like that a lot of the things it does are typical X-Men concepts taken to the ultimate conclusion and blah blah blah that's not what I want to talk about now, but I had to say it for context.

So I'm liking it overall, but JESUS CHRIST are Excalibur and Knights of X fucking shit. Both by Tini Howard. Not even gonna front, I loved X of Swords in all of its fae bullshit glory, but all the work of setting it up and dealing with its repercussions in Excalibur and later KoX was excruciating.

My attitude about it up until recently was "yeah it's not great but what you gonna do", but recently I decided to re-read Remender's Uncanny X-Force, and damn, it's painful trying to reconcile that the Betsy in UXF is the same character as the Betsy in Howard's books.

That's what I wanted to say, fuck Tini Howard.
 
The problem with current day Betsy is that there was serious behind the scenes talk, when Hickman rebooted the line, that Disney (for "yes queen slay SJW brownie points") were going to make the MCU Captain Britain be Betsy, hence why she's now Captain Britain in the X-Men books. So she got crammed into a role she was utterly unsuited for and they scorched earth the entire Captain Britain lore to make it happen for a SJW themed Girl Captain Britain.

Adding to this, we never got any follow-up on Betsy getting her old body back and the actual fucking implication of what the fuck she was going to do now or her dealing with such a massive fucking change in life. Not to mention that in doing so, Marvel wholesale reset Betsy's ENTIRE character back to literal square one in that she's basically back to where she was when she was in her first couple of appearances in the Claremont/Trimpe Captain Britain series.

And for extra levels of fail; Marvel keeps trying their damnest to have their cake and eat it too by forcing Revanche down our throats to keep Asian Psylockes around for marketing due to it being the look everyone associates with Betsy.

In hindsight, Betsy should have never been included in the Krakoa era X-Men and embargoed until enough time passed that you could bring her back and use the time passed to reset her character. And keep Revanche dead for fuck's sake. Have her and Angel fuck off and refuse anything to do with Krakoa, and if you need a new Captain Britain, age up the prom night dumpster baby Jubilee found and adopted to be the new Captain Britain.

Edit: I like Remender's Uncanny X-Force, but his treatment of Betsy was kind of forced and contrived in terms of her becoming a moral fag. Betsy has always been, since day one (telling Magik to mutilate Spiral when the X-Men had her prisoner and the whole debacle with Havok with her demanding the X-Men kill him when he accidentally discovered their plans to fake their deaths) a stone cold bitch even before she became a ninja. Her Kate Bush looks and British nature always hid a violent side, as far as her living up to the danger hair meme that her purple hair signaled.

Edit II: I made it up until the Malice origin issue of Excalibur before I bailed and that was because Howard was finally allowed to give an origin for one of the most evil, infamous later day Claremont X-Men villains who's backstory had never been established and have been speculated on by many an X-Men fan for DECADES..... and the bitch gave Malice the most bare boned, one-dimensional basic bitch backstory possible that completely and utterly kills ALL the mystique Malice had going for her THEN gives her a fucking body and full pardon after there being LEGIT CONVERSATIONS about Malice being the sort of existential threat to Krakoa who pretty much DESERVED being tossed into the pit if not outright destroyed.

And granted, I stuck with the book through some super dire shit because I liked the idea of Rogue and Rictor FINALLY getting big roles in X-Books and all. But the dropping of the ball on such a huge fucking mystery made me realize that Howard was never going to get better and was going to rape Betsy in particular until Marvel had enough backlash to just kill her off for good and make Revanche the only Psylockes that mattered.
 
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I'll say I'm fine with Kwannon sticking around for design recognition, because Hellions was fantastic.

As for Remender's UXM, like you said, Betsy's development later into the run wasn't that great. In fact, the whole run is very top-heavy. Quality starts decreasing as soon as they resolved the Archangel plot. It never reaches bad, but the arcs about Otherworld, the new Brotherhood, and whatever that authoritarian future was, were never as good as what came before. It had its moments, like Deadpool's interaction with Evan, but beyond that it all felt kinda rushed. Daken showed up out of nowhere mid-story, and we were supposed to take it as something very dramatic, which it wasn't. Art wasn't good enough to sell it either; Opeña could make anything seem impressive and dramatic, Noto not-o so much.
 
Nick Obre said:
You know, I've said it in this thread before and in various places, I'm really enjoying the X-Men Krakoa era overall, I disagree with most of the criticism it gets, I feel a lot of it comes from things taken out of context or made to seem worse than they are, I like that a lot of the things it does are typical X-Men concepts taken to the ultimate conclusion and blah blah blah that's not what I want to talk about now, but I had to say it for context.

So I'm liking it overall, but JESUS CHRIST are Excalibur and Knights of X fucking shit. Both by Tini Howard. Not even gonna front, I loved X of Swords in all of its fae bullshit glory, but all the work of setting it up and dealing with its repercussions in Excalibur and later KoX was excruciating.

My attitude about it up until recently was "yeah it's not great but what you gonna do", but recently I decided to re-read Remender's Uncanny X-Force, and damn, it's painful trying to reconcile that the Betsy in UXF is the same character as the Betsy in Howard's books.

That's what I wanted to say, fuck Tini Howard.
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My issue with the Krakoa era is that Hickman is a lot like JJ Abrams where he's a shitty salesman who's liked for no reason. His set-up never pays off and he's never around to catch shit for it. Everything he does is an imitation of something that's come before. Worse is that this time around it's X-Men writers who have some odd form of autism about the X-Men because actual faggots online claim the X-Men as their's so any subtext about being outcasts is now just the X-Men being stand-in's for degenerates.

The actual plot is ruining Moria's character for a shitty time travel plot. I don't really regard it as taking the X-Men to their ultimate conclusion, but the conclusion of a decade and a half of bad writing. It basically never lets the X-Men evolve, no matter what they will be hated and feared. Worse is that they will become the Monsters they once defended the world from. All of these stories have been done.

The rest of the story is some Earth X shit that nobody except like three people care about.
 
Krakoa is fucking boring because there's virtually no drama between the characters. It's the same problem as Morrison's run; the characters aren't allowed to be themselves, have interesting interactions, or drive the story with any interesting decisions or defined agency. They're props to carry out the author's self-masterbatory high concept sci-fi bullshit, to dance to the tune of some retarded concept that doesn't develop the characters or their relationship in any meaningful way, and has no large endgame in mind whatsoever.

You literally have the X-Men and many of their staunchest nemeses sharing the same table with each other; that should be huge. There should be tension and distrust on this island that you can cut with a knife. Literal years of past character interactions that should be informing every interaction and high-stakes event.

But, no. Time for the characters to play second fiddle to Gillen or Duggan's incredibly riveting Mutant Politics Plot of the Week.
 
Mississippi Motorboater said:
Krakoa is fucking boring because there's virtually no drama between the characters. It's the same problem as Morrison's run; the characters aren't allowed to be themselves, have interesting interactions, or drive the story with any interesting decisions or defined agency. They're props to carry out the author's self-masterbatory high concept sci-fi bullshit, to dance to the tune of some retarded concept that doesn't develop the characters or their relationship in any meaningful way, and has no large endgame in mind whatsoever.

You literally have the X-Men and many of their staunchest nemeses sharing the same table with each other; that should be huge. There should be tension and distrust on this island that you can cut with a knife. Literal years of past character interactions that should be informing every interaction and high-stakes event.

But, no. Time for the characters to play second fiddle to Gillen or Duggan's incredibly riveting Mutant Politics Plot of the Week.
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My issue is that it's the Earth X faggotry once again. I have no clue why people like Alex Ross or his shitty cosplayer art, but people fucking love it.

The only thing I get people liking from the Gillen-Duggan-Hickman-Ewing bullshit is Cyclops doing very canned 'Badass' shit. It's basically wanting to imitate the old cool character moments without buildup, effectively soying out because a character did a thing. Ewing pisses me off the most because he completely fucks a characters characterization, but uses old continuity and people laud him for it.
I don't care about any of the new characters because they have no motivations. The X-Men basically turned into an activist group, I have no issue with a character idolizing Spider-Man, but it'd be nice if a character wants to be a doctor or some shit that involves being a normie. The fucking Namekians from DBZ had more characterization then most of the groups that have been introduced in the 4 years of the Hickman X-Men. Hickman's villain is barely a threat because they're like Saturday Morning Cartoon villains that barely pose a threat besides barely escaping total defeat.

What even is anyone motivations anymore? Prof. X and Magneto want gay world domination, but Scott is basically just a cuck who might get to fuck Emma. Wolverine is basically just a guard dog who let's morally dubious shit happen, Beast is committing crimes against humanity, and Storm hasn't had characterization for years.
 
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