Sonic The Hedgehog Games

[FunkTism]

My suggestions for characters would be:
- The Chaotix crew
- Fang
- Cream
- Sage (and her supposed 'impact' on Eggman.)

I'll get to that.
But here are quickies as my post above is enough for right now:

The Chaotix Crew:​

Spoiler: Quick Points

• Reintroduce Mighty, Ray and Knuckles back into the friend group.
• Play off it more like a me and the boys getting into wacky stuff club.
• Detective work is a nice way to start off plots but it is currently pigeon holing them a bit.
• There is nothing wrong with Vector and Vanilla's relationship as it currently is not flanderizing either of them. But I can see your concern.

---

Fang​

Spoiler: Quick Points

• Thank people for insisting that Classic /= Modern Sonic.
• If he can't be a Sonic-level foe anymore, he should be tied to a group against the Chaotix. (With Bark and Bean as crew mates)
• Just don't mess with his design and have him annoyed that people like Sonic and Knuckles got Taller while he is *still* waiting for his growth spurt. That way we don't fuck up a Modern Fang design.

---

Cream​

Spoiler: Longer Points

• The only issue I have with modern Cream is that she can be seen as a crybaby since they gave her character point to Amy (being the pure girl that opens others up. Gmeral and Blaze. Now Amy has the role that feels OOC and Minnie Mouse-ish on her.).
• Have her want to be out on adventures more after her experiences with Heroes, Battle and Rush.
• Her character was only damaged by being Tied at the Hip to Amy, who later stole her role as the nice girl who opens the hearts of closed off people.
  • She was better as a foil to Amy's love struckness with the simple reality-checks that kids do.
    • "Hey Mister why are you fat?" Is like her saying, "Maybe Sonic doesn't mean that, or doesn't want to hang out with you?" (ala: her Heroes, Riders, Battle, dialogue)
• She had the perfect partnership with Blaze being her Tails analog.
  • This relationship allowed both to show off the strengths of each character and to develop each other more.
    • You can thank Shitver and Amytroons for not allowing for this dynamic to happen ever again. Relegating both characters to accessories.
    • (You'll never see Cream and Marine interact with each other and fighting for the "Big Sister's" attention. Or Cream going to the Sol-dimension and having a Princess day with Blaze.)
• Cream's relationship with these characters in my mind has the most potiential:
  • Gmeral
  • Blaze
  • Marine
  • Sonic
  • Chaotix
  • Vanilla
  • Team Dark (All of them. Auntie Rouge Uncle Shadow, Uncle Omega)
  • Sage (imagine a Chao Garden game with Cream and Sage as rivals)

Spoiler: Image for my point

---

Sage​

Spoiler: Longer Points

• Nothing is really wrong with her.
• She needs more interaction with the cast beyond Sonic and Eggman.
  • She didn't feel like she had anything of importance with the rest of Frontier's cast (Tails, Knuckles and Amy but those characters are kinda pointless outside of their role as a writer's 4th wall-breaking apology tour to the fans in that game, anyway).
• She has a lot of potential exploring her relationships with characters like:
  • Sonic
  • Shadow
  • Metal Sonic
  • Orbot and Cubot
  • Eggman
  • G.U.N.
  • Cream (Possibly make them friends. Would be funny if they were like this image below)
  • Tails
  • NOT SHITVER (He needs his own villains [frankly giving him the Deadly Six like they hinted at in Crossworlds might be best for them and him] and confirming anything occurring in the future occurring like Eggman's dying / Sage ruling / etc... just makes the Present Plots worthless as we know how it ends. Not all Fanart = a good idea in practice.)
• Keeping her a villain is the best choice.
• Eggman Softning was something that was already occuring when Orbot and Cubot were introduced. I see Sage less as a threat to him being soft and nice but risking more proud dad moments. (which could rub off on his relationship with Metal Sonic).

---

Amy (and her Anti-fan fanbase)​

I have a lot of thoughts that I put down in a previous post. Which are not all of my thoughts, especially on her """Nu-fanbase of Anti-fans""".

Even everything below does not begin to dissect the problem. (The answer to a lot of these issues is that we NEED to gatekeep better).

Spoiler: Open if Ready to Read the Truth

Quick thoughts​

• I think she has the most potential to damage the brand currently, as she specifically has a massive ANTI-Fan audience.
• People also demand that all her edges be sanded down to the point where we have her now, (look at the demands to censor anything of Sonic being annoyed with her or her doing something rash/rude. Generations remake's cutscene changes, bio in Generations changes, etc...)
  • A completely stale plank of wood that is anything the plot demands of her. With no characterization outside of the """"girl"""" of the group.
    • Something that is far outlived its' point as we now have many Girls in Sonic whose personality/characterization does not hinge on being the """"girl"""' of the group. Rouge and Blaze being the best examples.
• Amy was at her best in SA1 and SA2 and while Heroes and her Yandere phase is not perfect it is FAR FAR FAR better than everything we

Her fans don't support what they demand​

People that like to bitch, complain and introduce damaging concepts to the brand claiming that they are the target audience all while never buying anything.

• Example of those anti-fans bitching and getting what they wanted while NOT supporting the product when they did:
  • Sonic Origins +
  • Sonic Superstars
    • Both games HEAVILY marketed towards those fans. Making Amy's playability or her in the story the MAIN Marketing or focal point. In Both cases the game flopped spectacularly, while the """"fans"""" that clammored for her were nowhere to be seen in the game's sales.

Who are the main 3 types of Amy/Shitver fans?​

Amy """fans""" and Silver fans, especially online, are very much composed of 3 types:

1. Losers (Self-inserters)
2. Shippers (People that constantly want character rewrites, OOC moments and destroying/crippling """Rival characters""" like Rouge/Blaze/Cream to be lesser to artifically boost up Amy)
3. Troons (Porn addicts that try to shove """"almost hentai fan art"""" of Amy at you to try to get you to like her. As well as use a children's game character for Early Porn Exposure, something they do constantly. You can also thank Amy's basic girly personality and pink girly colors that speak to Troons who on the whole are Autistic and want an easy female to emulate which Amy [especially modern Amy] is the perfect mirror for them to see themselves in.)

Video Example of Modern Amy Fans (Yes, Amy makes Transgenders):​

Funny pictures that perfectly capture the 3 types of her fans:​

These pictures below are the best examples of Amy's Nu-fanbase of Anti-fans. Maybe I'll talk about them and their symbiosis with Shitver's fanbase of anti-fans.

 

[Plumber's Crack]

Silver was made worse and looked retarded, believing this abomination with no mouth, and who is clearly evil.

It's retarded at first, but when i look back at that plot point i wonder if the intent was to be that Silver only believed him because he was completely desperate to stop the bad future from happening and was willing to take help from anyone even if they clearly had bad intentions. Only problem with that is that there's nothing in game to actually back up my glorified headcanon from what i remember, so it was likely just shit writing.

 

[Friendly Primarina]

I agreed with pretty much all this but one minor nitpick:

Succeeds in his plan until a massive Asspull happens.

To be fair, he only succeeds in the first place due to asspulls ("The 'I' of now", suddenly just killing Sonic, teleporting the Emeralds to where he is etc.). All of '06 is just asspulls, really.

heavy lifting... Silver

I see what you did there

Chris has seen some shit.

I'm not familiar with X. Are the animal characters always this teeny? Look how small Amy is next to that woman. And yes, that's a large woman but still. It was probably so they wouldn't look too tall next to Chris, I still can't help but notice it. Look how big she is next to Elise:

 

[FunkTism]

It's retarded at first, but when i look back at that plot point i wonder if the intent was to be that Silver only believed him because he was completely desperate to stop the bad future from happening and was willing to take help from anyone even if they clearly had bad intentions. Only problem with that is that there's nothing in game to actually back up my glorified headcanon from what i remember, so it was likely just shit writing.

Everyone headcanons that as true, but it's not, sadly.

Silver believes him entirely and never questions him.

He only questions if it is right to kill someone to save the future because Amy told him it was not, (unironically Amy should have been at Silver's hip since he had more moments with her than Blaze and was more important to him).

---

I see what you did there

It's just the truth.

If Silver was NOT a Hedgehog he'd be as forgotten as:

• Trip
• Shade

Both characters are important to the stories they are in, and both are completely thrown away because they were in a bad game.
Additionally, if Silver was not a discount Trunks, the Japanese fanbase would not be so kind as well.

 

[Plumber's Crack]

I agreed with pretty much all this but one minor nitpick:

To be fair, he only succeeds in the first place due to asspulls ("The 'I' of now", suddenly just killing Sonic, teleporting the Emeralds to where he is etc.). All of '06 is just asspulls, really.

I see what you did there


Chris has seen some shit.

I'm not familiar with X. Are the animal characters always this teeny? Look how small Amy is next to that woman. And yes, that's a large woman but still. It was probably so they wouldn't look too tall next to Chris, I still can't help but notice it. Look how big she is next to Elise:
View attachment 8469482

Here are height charts that should give you a good perspective how most of the characters are sized up against one human. Remember that if Eggman didn't feel the need to beat Sonic with his creations, he could probably just sneak up on him and slam his ass into the ground like he did with Starline.

 

[Friendly Primarina]

It's just the truth.

I was just making a dumb psychokinesis joke lol

Here is height charts that should give you a good perspective how most of the characters are sized up against one human.

So much for Vanilla being "the size of an average human mother". She looks like she'd be about as tall as Knuckles here, maybe slightly taller:

 

[Cave Fisher]

Amy straight up has magical powers (tarot cards).

I'm fine with her having a super form because it looks cool and it probably won't actually be story relevant ever, but I always hated the relatively recent reintroduction of her tarot cards just because she was stated to like them ONCE in a manual like 30 years ago, magic has NEVER Been a part of her regular powerset until Frontiers suddenly had her casting spells and shit out of the blue, I feel like her looking like the most conventionally girly character of the cast at a glance makes a vast majority of her writing decisions filtered through the "girl" archetype, like her suddenly being a magical girl and hitting people with floating cards despite the simultaneous focus on her physical strength.

 

[NerdShamer]

I'm not familiar with X. Are the animal characters always this teeny?

Yeah, the height of most of the cast maxes out at 3, maybe 4 feet. It's always been like that ever since SA came out

So much for Vanilla being "the size of an average human mother". She looks like she'd be about as tall as Knuckles here, maybe slightly taller:

But Vanilla in X was around the same size as Vector,so I'm guessing 4'6" at most

 

[analrapist]

She looks like she'd be about as tall as Knuckles here, maybe slightly taller:

She's a bit in the background and given that we can see the white rolls at the top of Tails' shoes, it looks like he's a bit elevated, relatively. There is some foreshortening due to her location in the background, et cetera. Maybe there's some creative accounting with Vanilla's ears. IDK, I just don't find this argument super persuasive given the image, which has some curious features.

 

[Super Guido]

I’m listening to a Dreamcast music mix, and I have to get this off my chest: the Knuckles songs in SA2 are bad and I’m tired of pretending they’re not. Every song is the same, just a basic hip hop instrumental with some high black guy going “yo this is knuckles im here at [insert level name here] and i gotta find the emeroods cuz its my destiny of my ancestors and sheeeeeit”. Fuck all of them, even Pumpkin Hill.

When I first heard the one about how he doesn't chuckle, I didn't think it was real. I downloaded it from Napster and was like "Hahaha, holy shit. What is this?"

 

[FunkTism]

I'm fine with her having a super form because it looks cool and it probably won't actually be story relevant ever

Horrible take and let me explain why, (and I'll try to do it nicely). Even though it seems like an intentional downplay of Super Forms.


Super forms have always been story-relevant since their introduction in Sonic 2.
The only time they are not relevant is when it was DLC in Forces or an extra character in a spin-off game (like racing games).

So please do not downplay the importance of a superform.

The Super form also ruins Amy's inclusion in games going forward if they have the Chaos Emeralds.

As she will then embody the "Kechov's Gun" concept whenever Chaos emeralds are involed examples below:

• She Turned Super before, is she NOW going super again?!
• It's so dumb that only Sonic is Super when AMY IS RIGHT THERE!
• Uh its sexist for them NOT to give Amy a super form when she did it before?
• Uh why doesn't Amy talk about going super again? She should bring it up?
• etc...

^ Essientially everything that people bring up when Shadow or Silver are in the room and they don't go super with Sonic for the story.

Except worse as:
Shadow respects Sonic to get the job done and will fight when he deems he needs to.
Shitver hasn't been story relevant since 06 and has not had a super transformation since that game. He has bigger/worse questions when he shows up like, "Why the fuck is Silver even here? Why is he traveling through time? Will he actually do anything this game?"

---

Additionally

I want you to think about what you wrote below and replace "Tarot Cards" with "Super Form"

but I always hated the relatively recent reintroduction of her tarot cards just because she was stated to like them ONCE

"I hate that she has the Super form because it was never stated she could ONCE."

has NEVER Been a part of her regular powerset until Frontiers suddenly had her casting spells and shit out of the blue

"The Super form has NEVER Been a part of her regular powerset until (insert game/movie) suddenly gave her a super form and powers out of the blue!


Everything you hate about Tarot cards can and will be worse with her getting a Super Form.

 

[Metallic Blood]

Sure, but I have to ask if you were around the Sonic community during 06. Mephiles was always seen as a mid-positive character. With wasted potential (not fan-cope """"hidden potential""" like Shitver)

Yeah, I confess that I was way too young when 06 got released. I really only became a big Sonic fan since... Colors/Generations I would say. It was a bit before the time where the Sonic "fandom" started parroting that only 1/3 of SA2 was any good (which by extension goes into the "Sonic had a rough transition to 3D" and "Sonic was never good" territory).

I did play a reused copy of 06 when I got a bit older just so I could see for myself what the internet was fussing about. I thought Mephiles was one of the better parts of the game, but his plan always seemed so convoluted and retarded to me.

... but then after I read your post, which then made me rewatch the 06 cutscenes, and thinking about it a bit more... maybe my main problem with him was not really his character per say, and more so "Unrestricted time travel is a crappy plot device":

Why didn't he just go back in time and fuse with Iblis when the Solaris Project had a meltdown?
Or why does he needs the Chaos emeralds to fuse with Iblis (which apparently he only needed 3, because he basically just yoinked the last 4 with no fanfare at the end) and what's stopping him from getting them in the past where they are left unguarded?
Yeah he's a sadist, but I feel like he could just play with his food way more interestingly if he just use the time travel properly (like try manipulating Rouge like what he did with Omega, send Shadow in a time where he is being currently persecuted, or start messing with GUN in the present day).

But again, most of my complaints are really because that time travel is dumb and gay, and any character looks retarded when they have the power to travel through time but doesn't use it properly, the awkward cutscenes also didn't help lol.

Besides that, I think he's just a little bland and I would be a bit disappointed if he had a comeback and became a main villain for Shadow as a lot of people I've seen wish for.

A Mephiles reboot would make me a bit more excited (like the one in your draft as an example), but if Shadow/Team Dark gets any focus again, I'd rather see a new threat rather than someone that was already used (which is very unlikely).

If Silver was NOT a Hedgehog he'd be as forgotten as:

• Trip

[...] Both characters are important to the stories they are in, and both are completely thrown away because they were in a bad game.

I know you're right... but dang it!



SEGA, I LOVE TRIP'S DESIGN!!! REUSE HER IN A NEW GAME AND MY LIFE IS YOURS!!!



(this also applies to most of the classic-era characters, but I feel this the most with Trip)

(EDITED FOR CLARITY)

 

[FunkTism]

If I could ask, could you write why you think 06 is absolute dogcrap and your hatred towards history reviosinists like you said here.

Watch this series first. This should be MANDATORY WATCHING for everyone in this thread.
Especially if you are too young to remember the aftermath of 06 or the experience of playing it on release.

Clement called out the apologists and historic revisionists 13 YEARS AGO. Everything in here is evergreen.

So pop some popcorn and watch this series.

 

[Plumber's Crack]

Why didn't he just fuse with Iblis when the Solaris Project had a meltdown?
Or why does he needs the Chaos emeralds to fuse with Iblis (which apparently he only needed 3, because he basically just yoinked the last 4 with no fanfare at the end)?
Yeah he's a sadist, but I feel like he could just play with his food way more interestingly if he just use the time travel properly (like try manipulating Rouge like what he did with Omega, send Shadow in a time where he is being currently persecuted, or start messing with GUN in the present day).

But again, most of my complaints are really because that time travel is dumb and gay, and any character looks retarded when they have the power to travel through time but doesn't use it properly, the awkward cutscenes also didn't help lol.

Sonic 06's story when analyzed beyond a surface level can honestly be summed up with this video

 

[Retarded Weeb]

So much for Vanilla being "the size of an average human mother". She looks like she'd be about as tall as Knuckles here, maybe slightly taller:

That image makes her look about twice as tall as Cream, so going off that modern height chart above that should mean the top of her head reaches to about Eggman's chest. It's a little hard to tell for sure because of how we're looking at them, with Cream further away, and with their feet hidden which obscures how far down their legs reach and how exactly they're standing in relation to one another. Here's another image I found which is also obscured by Vanilla bowing slightly, but it looks like even with that the length of her head to her shins is twice of that Cream from her head to the bottom of her dress.


I think Vanilla would be like this on the height chart, with Cream coming up to about her waist.


That classic height chart says Eggman is 185cm, which is 6 feet, so that means she should probably be pretty close to 5 feet tall. Although, that chart is kind of weird. Hold on...

It's not properly to scale with the listed heights. You can see that the 10cm gap between Knuckles and Sonic is smaller than the 10cm gaps between Sonic and Amy, and between Amy and Tails. Eggman should be slightly taller than two Amys stacked together, but he's slightly shorter. The only way this makes sense is if we assume we're looking at the characters from a slightly downward angle, but they appear to be facing straight ahead.

Well anyway, if we assume the heights are correct and Eggman is 6'0'' while Knuckles is about 3'7'', then Vanilla at about halfway between the two should be something like 4'8''? Not quite average human mother-sized, but pretty tall for a Mobian. You could probably fuck her without breaking her in two, which I'm guessing is what that guy was getting at.

 

[Friendly Primarina]

magic has NEVER Been a part of her regular powerset until Frontiers suddenly had her casting spells and shit out of the blue

Um ackshully sweaty she could turn invisible in '06. Much like Sonic's use of Chaos Control this seems to be something she can do but just doesn't for some reason.

Not quite average human mother-sized, but pretty tall for a Mobian. You could probably fuck her without breaking her in two, which I'm guessing is what that guy was getting at.

It's just funny that his video is infamous in part for that line but in the same video he shows her standing next to a 12 year old

 

[Newcomer 42]

AUTISM POWER!

Lots of info! Say, how would you go with the whole rebooting Silver to make him less lame, if it's even possible? It seems he has to be detached from his future issue to even work. In fact, I would say the whole setting needs a hard reboot, as right now the Mobian critters don't even have their own name for their species.
Making Eggman softer by giving her a stand-in daughter will make him less likely to do evil plans like he did in the Adventure games, I fear. I'm not sure if he would take Amy at gunpoint and jetisson Sonic ever again if he knows his little girl is watching.
Oh well, we'll see in the next 3d game!

 

[StoneKnightMan]

in other news. sonic paradox released the long awaited Casino Calamity. now i'm wondering what the name will be for rail canyon and bullet station.

and here's the 35th anniversary video sega posted.

 

[Plumber's Crack]

I just recently finished up my playthrough of Sonic Origins in it's entirety. Did all mainline games and all achievements, but didn't 100%. Overall it's an okay collection for the Genesis games, but it's too overpriced for it's own good. You're better off just playing the decomps + AIR for the definitive classic experience nowadays.

Spoiler: Game Sperging, mostly for 3&K

The main thing i want to get to though are my thoughts on the games themselves. 1 aged a lot better than i remember, and CD was scuffed but im going to play it again so i can really make a concrete opinion on it, but then we get to 2 and 3.
2 has aged amazingly well. It embodies the design these games had where you can get through them faster upon every replay pretty much perfectly. All my years of watching random Sonic speedruns on youtube really paid off well when i decided to revisit it after so long. To me, there's pretty much not a single bad stage in the game except for Metropolis act 3. Even Sky Chase i don't really dislike on a replay since i view it more as a nice filler bit to lead into Wing Fortress, which is similarly a stage i feel gets crapped on way too much.
Then we get to the final boss itself which everyone hates, and don't get me wrong, the hitbox on the death egg robot can be pretty janky, but it's really not that bad of a fight otherwise. Easiest way to beat it is to just wait for it to be still, then you can get a guaranteed hit on it with no problem. I feel like the only reason it got as much hate as it did was because it's the only boss in the game where you can't just slam yourself against it like a mental patient slamming his head against a wall and have to actually attack at the right time.

So if i thought 2 aged this great, then 3 would surely be as good as i remember it? Well, yes and no. 3 is still great, but i actually found myself preferring 2 by quite a bit. 3 has a lot of strong qualities like it's soundtrack, the level transistions that help make the world more seamless and elemental shields, it didn't really hit quite as hard to me like i hoped it would still do.
I think a lot of it has to do with the level design. It's still pretty solid here, but there's a lot more instances of scripting to be found that sort of break up the pace. Some of it's cool, but then you get some annoying ones like in the second act of the first zone where you literally just hold right while Eggman tries to napalm your ass and then another moment in Launch Base where you watch Sonic slowly pilot an egg mobile to the boss area. Yeah it's cool to watch at first like i said, but for replays it's just gonna be an annoying thing to watch again, especially since the timer still ticks down during these sections. I feel like it went against the design the last games had where the length of a level largely depended on how skilled you were at the game and not external factors for the most part.

This game also was more prone to having gimmicks in it's levels that interrupted the flow. The janky spinning things in Marble Garden, those fucking barrels that filtered millions of kids who didn't know to press up and down and can crush you if you connect even a pixel of Sonic to the bottom of one in Carnival Night, the stupid door switch you have to stop and push in Sandopolis, the vines that ensnared you in Mushroom Hill, etc. None of them are really what i'd call unbearable, but they also don't really add much to the experience. The closest that Sonic 2 had to something like this was the seesaws in Hill Top and maybe all the pinball fuckery in Casino Night, but those still actively played with Sonic's movement in a fun way.

There's also some really bad bosses here this time, most of which are found in the Knuckles portion of the game. Sandopolis has the guardian, or the rock man as i usually call him, who's pitifully easy and goes down without you even needing to touch him. Later in Lava Reef Act 2, Eggman leads you down into a pit filled with lava where the boss takes place, and golly gee it is the most fucking embarassing boss in the Genesis trilogy hands down. All you do is jump on platforms while waiting for him to kill himself with spike balls, and if you picked up the flame shield beforehand the challenge is non-existent. There's a few more, but those are the top two i think of when it comes to bad bosses in this game.

I do sound pretty negative with this game, but it has a lot of strengths. The soundtrack is easily my favorite of the Genesis games, The art is gorgeous to look at, the levels are still fun to play through for the most part despite my issues listed, and the ending stretch with
Death Egg Zone all the way into Doomsday is easily the best of the classics, mogging the fuck out of all 3 of the other games combined. It's still a genuinely great game even with all it's flaws and it's easy to see why most view it as the template to look at when designing a classic game. For me though? I guess im a simple man. The reason i prefer 2 over 3 is also why i prefer Monkey Ball 1 over 2. Simple games executed brilliantly tend to stick with me more than ambitious games that mostly hit the mark but stumble a bit here and there.

 

[Pixy]

Dan Green reusing his yugioh voice did quite a bit of heavy lifting for Mephiles' likeability to children in the 2000's.