Serious LGBT Discussion

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Operator Kyoko Sakura said:
Russia has a very large Russian orthodox population. Russian Orthodoxy puts a huge emphasis on traditionalism and rejection of many modern day policies. In edition, Soviet Russia criminalized homosexuality.
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Rare footage of Putin:

okay back to serious discussion:
bearycool said:
Okay, I'm going to switch to a subject that is a bit personal, but I find has never been critical.

How in the hell is a gay relationship suppose to work? What is the dynamic? Is it the same as a heterosexual relationship, or something else?

We see a bunch of literature of straight people getting all romantic, but anything with gay romance hasn't become absolutely explicit until recently. In other words, we lack much primary text and history describing how a gay relationship works and how it should not work. Some people say it is the exact same thing as a heterosexual one, and while in theory that may be true, I find it is not because homosexuals receive a social experience that is much different than, say, a heterosexual couple. The way a homosexual couple and a heterosexual one interacts in society was and is different due to obvious perceived deviancy and judgement against queers; and while that gap is much smaller in the present, it still exists: two gay men still have a hard time holding their significant other's hand in public, or just showing really any signs of affection.

Though, and I hate to say this but this is where dudebro and bromances actually do help. It allows for a sort of leeway for men to have affection for one another without being entirely gay-- though we of course joke about how queer it is. Still, in a sense it allows for men to have emotions for each other, and emotions in general were not a thing to be found explicitly in men until recently as well.

So I dunno, I guess the dynamic for lesbian couples, gay couples, and straight couples are all different because of the way society views the gender of each, as well as the biases of the sexuality itself.
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From personal experience it functions the same way as a heterosexual relationship does, as others have stated. There is no specific role for either partner, and to be honest, there never should be. Relationships aren't like plays, people don't play specific parts and fit into specific molds. Especially nowadays with gender roles being challenged so often, people should just be, people. Relationships focus on romance and intimacy, to be honest it just comes naturally how to act. You do things together like any couple would, and as someone who has been in both homosexual and heterosexual relationships, there is no difference.

Tbh I think the whole judging on the part of dudebro has to do with masculinity and gender roles moreso than sexuality.

relationships don't have mechanics
 
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Len Kagamoney said:
Rare footage of Putin:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ecC2_gz_MoQ
okay back to serious discussion:

From personal experience it functions the same way as a heterosexual relationship does, as others have stated. There is no specific role for either partner, and to be honest, there never should be. Relationships aren't like plays, people don't play specific parts and fit into specific molds. Especially nowadays with gender roles being challenged so often, people should just be, people. Relationships focus on romance and intimacy, to be honest it just comes naturally how to act. You do things together like any couple would, and as someone who has been in both homosexual and heterosexual relationships, there is no difference.

Tbh I think the whole judging on the part of dudebro has to do with masculinity and gender roles moreso than sexuality.

relationships don't have mechanics
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As it is, I agree with you in theory. However, the differences comes from Private versus public acts of affection and romance.

In private, everyone, both homosexual and heteosexual couples are the same. I likewise know this from perspective. However, in public, like with holding hands, gay guys still have a hard time doing that, even in very accepting places. Even here in Colorado, two bitch asses in a car screamed "fag!" when we were holding hands. Obviously, that's the worse of my experience, and they were clearly littler cowards, and that society has changed.

Still, there is a "false" role that we will have to sometimes place on ourselves sometime: one being we appear as just "friends" out in public. There is still a bit of a stigma of two guys holding hands versus two girls or a guy and a girl holding hands. While we are all the same in terms of romance, people foce a sort of "division" that does not exist, and it forces some people to have to hide under a sort of facade.

That's why we still have this "straight acting" bullshit happening with some people, though I will say they just have a weird psychology and have honestly not come out of the closet yet.

So what you say is true, it still is a bit of an ideal we have yet to achieve. We still have to prove we are exactly the same as everyone else, and for now we do have some restrictions, albeit they're much better than in the past.
 
Dudeofteenage said:
I don't think Orthodox christianity is innately more conservative than any other brand of christianity. Similarly, the USSR seesawed on homosexuality - in the pre-Stalin era it was entirely legal at a time when it was still illegal in most of the West. And more recently, there was much less homophobia in Russia in the 1990s and early 00s than there is now.

I think that the reason homosexuality is stigmatised (not, for the record, actually illegal, although it's one of those "technically legal" situations) is because it's come to be associated with internationalism, cosmopolianism, and the West generally, while the current political climate in Russia is all about self-dependence and cultural autarky.
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lol I'm making a double post, whoops

Yeah, that seems to be the case for Russia. Which just makes it more retarded in my opinion, and that sort of "self-dependence" reminds me very much of WW1 nationalism, which refuses to accept anything else but their own countries pride and view.

Russia needs to deal with it: we live in a global reality, and isolationism, and/or not wanting to be someone else such as the west is just being stubborn and acting like a child. Get over yourselves, and this goes for the US too btw, and start seeing that maybe, just maybe the other side is not %100 evil.

The us vs. them mentality is really not a good framework to work with.
 
bearycool said:
As it is, I agree with you in theory. However, the differences comes from Private versus public acts of affection and romance.

In private, everyone, both homosexual and heteosexual couples are the same. I likewise know this from perspective. However, in public, like with holding hands, gay guys still have a hard time doing that, even in very accepting places. Even here in Colorado, two bitch asses in a car screamed "fag!" when we were holding hands. Obviously, that's the worse of my experience, and they were clearly littler cowards, and that society has changed.

Still, there is a "false" role that we will have to sometimes place on ourselves sometime: one being we appear as just "friends" out in public. There is still a bit of a stigma of two guys holding hands versus two girls or a guy and a girl holding hands. While we are all the same in terms of romance, people foce a sort of "division" that does not exist, and it forces some people to have to hide under a sort of facade.

That's why we still have this "straight acting" bullshit happening with some people, though I will say they just have a weird psychology and have honestly not come out of the closet yet.

So what you say is true, it still is a bit of an ideal we have yet to achieve. We still have to prove we are exactly the same as everyone else, and for now we do have some restrictions, albeit they're much better than in the past.
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You make some interesting points on public versus private. The LGBT community around here (Deep South/Bible Belt) tends to be fairly low key and somewhat discreet in my experience. It pays to be careful because there are more than a few bigots lurking around, I've encountered some out on errands brazenly discussing how gays would go to hell in the social security office of all places. I almost caused an unholy shitstorm with that one.

I do think you have a point when it comes to being forced to assume certain 'roles' when out in public just for the sake of discretion and safety at least in some places. It also depends on the place, and the individuals involved in my experience

With the exception of certain public rituals of affection and the like, I'm still going to stay that they work functionally like heterosexual relationships in terms of day to day to life You still need to communicate, compromise, trust and respect each other, and the dynamics are still flexibile in how the relationship in conducted. I've known of some couples were either out and proud, or were obvious about it if not technically 'out' as a same sex couple. So I guess it depends on how much you're willing to tolerate and if you think it's worth taking the punishment.

Ah, the straight acting and the closet. That messes with your head and isn't healthy to be in. I've always found it's got to do with fearing disapproval from outside sources, and/ or self loathing/internalized homophobia. It is possible to claw your way out of that fun little place, but tough as fuck even if you're determined.
 
autisticdragonkin said:
I really don't like the fundie obsession with anal sex and belief that all gay couples do is anal sex (and in general attempting to put heteronormative ideals onto same sex relations)
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(Wall of text inbound.)

Ah fundies and their strange notions.

Let's not forget how gays are pedophiles, into bestiality, have a secret conspiracy going to overthrow Christianity, have a conspiracy going to overthrow heterosexual rights, possessed by demons, have constant orgies, kidnap children, and indoctrinate them, are abominations, and in general evil people. Oh did I mention how we're rebelling against the Christian God's so called plan for humanity?

Honestly? I think it's got to do with that they shove gay (and transgender, and bisexual) people into neat little boxes because they can't quite understand why we do what we do. I've found from personal experience and dealing with fundies online that they have the strangest notions of what it means to be non heterosexual. There seems to be this pattern of fear, confusion, and the hostility that comes with it because they don't understand us, we don't mesh with their narrow religious worldview, and it gets reinforced by twisted interpretations of their own holy books/scripts/texts. It goes something like..

"Gays aren't like us! They're different and I don't get it! They must be evil because they're not like me! The Bible says so!"

Heteronormative behaviors are the fundie 'baseline' so to speak. I think it's what they expect, and in their rigid worldview all they can really see as right. They seem to forget that heterosexual couples indulge in anal sex as well..

To be fair, not all of them are virulent hateful assholes. Some are relatively mild, non belligerant, and just disagree. Those are semi-tolerable in the short term.

They also don't seem to understand that LGBT marriage isn't about taking away their rights, but actually you know...gaining rights for ourselves so we can marry our loved one? We as a whole don't have any interest in taking away heterosexual rights, and just want the same considerations as heterosexuals,

In my opinion, the worst argument I've seen that enforces heteronormative norms is the one where they say...

"Gays have the same right to marry someone else of the opposite sex and have children as we do. Why should they have special rights?"

Typically seems to come from "Marriage is one man and one woman, and it's primary purpose is procreation." line of thinking. It denies the fact that marriage is often for love, companionship, and not all people want children. It also denies that people can be in love and attracted to the same sex, and denies the same basic right to a full legal union that heterosexual couples are entitled too.

It smacks of the same seperate but equal crap that pops up again and again in history.
 
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bearycool said:
Yeah, that seems to be the case for Russia. Which just makes it more retarded in my opinion, and that sort of "self-dependence" reminds me very much of WW1 nationalism, which refuses to accept anything else but their own countries pride and view.
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I don't know what you mean by "WW1" nationalism but Russia's suspicion of ideas originating outside the country is really just a facet of the same nationalist belief system that is near universal around the world. It may not always manifest as suspicion of homosexuals but it's omnipresent.
 
autisticdragonkin said:
I hate it when SJWs objectify LGBT people to support their own agenda
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I'm not sure if this is aimed at my post or not, but I am sorry if it came across as SJWish. Not my intent, I'm just wordy as hell and like indepth discussions on topics.

I'm not a big fan of the fundie population, but that's less SJW and more that I live in a heavily fundie area as an LGBT person mixed in with some ugly experiences. Personal grudge and experience so to speak.
 
WandererofWays said:
I'm not sure if this is aimed at my post or not, but I am sorry if it came across as SJWish. Not my intent, I'm just wordy as hell and like indepth discussions on topics.

I'm not a big fan of the fundie population, but that's less SJW and more that I live in a heavily fundie area as an LGBT person mixed in with some ugly experiences. Personal grudge and experience so to speak.
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It was not aimed at your post but was partially inspired by your post. I am more to the right socially (not fiscally) for my area (a pretty leftist area though) and people always go after me for being bisexual and not ultra leftist
 
autisticdragonkin said:
It was not aimed at your post but was partially inspired by your post. I am more to the right socially (not fiscally) for my area (a pretty leftist area though) and people always go after me for being bisexual and not ultra leftist
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Alright then. I was concerned because I 'can' get a bit SJWIsh when I'm especially angry or heated.

As for the rest,

Speaking as a more left leaning bisexual, I find it to be bullshit that they go after you for that. Sexual orientation should not be a straight jacket for political views or anything. else. It's a part of who you are, not your entire identity.

I get sick of the SJW and LGBT extremists myself. They kind of miss the point that we get to define ourselves and be forced into rigid molds.

On that note.

I hate that the LGBT community has a dislike for those who identify as bisexual. Guess what folks? We're not liars, greedy, sluts, or confused. Bisexuality is a valid and very real orientation, and we're just people who like both genders. Gender gets less and less important to me as I get older. Character and personality become more and more so. Men can be bisexual, women can be bisexual, we are capable of being mongamous and faithful. We're not suddenly going to leave you for the other gender just because we're attracted to both.

We are not any less LGBT because we can have hetero relationships, we love our partners, and we still face the same shit is you do when our orientation becomes known. More so in some cases because of LGBT fringe groups. We are not passing or taking the easy way out. We fall in love or are attracted, and it's our right.


Most of all?

We exist, and are people. We have feelings, goals, dreams, hopes, and fears, and experience all the rest of the human condition just like you do.
 
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Dudeofteenage said:
I don't know what you mean by "WW1" nationalism but Russia's suspicion of ideas originating outside the country is really just a facet of the same nationalist belief system that is near universal around the world. It may not always manifest as suspicion of homosexuals but it's omnipresent.
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Nationalism in World War 1 created a bunch of boundaries and misconceptions, which lead the world into war from just one simple assassination. A bunch of people blindly following their leaders in pride. I speak of this about Russia as I'm suggesting they're creating a boundary of gays being the west, and their homophobia as being Russia, and that is not a correct outlook, and it will just create strife and even possible conflict with one another.

If you wish to speak universal, that is fine as that is true, but then I would just state the ideal that everyone needs to get over themselves again. It creates a psychological demarcation of people "like" you, and people "not like" you. I speak namely of Russia, as they are important in the subject of the LGBT community, and we need to just narrow our scope a little to that subject. It affects a bunch of other things, sure, but our focus is the problems it causes for LGBT people.

Though I will say that if it causing much more conflict than with gay people, then by burden of proof it is inherently a broken way of though.

Tl;dr get along with each other. That's an ideal sadly.
 
autisticdragonkin said:
I hate it when SJWs objectify LGBT people to support their own agenda
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Yeah it's kind of annoying when groups like that think they have the moral authority to talk for entire other groups, especially when they seem to have the same mindset as Chris-chan that gay men (and trans men as well as probably others) are just lucky to be along for the ride and are barely tolerated.
 
As someone who identifies as bisexual, I've had no problems with discrimination or anything of that sort, probably due to living in a fairly LGBT accepting environment. I've never even come out to anyone in my family, and yet I've discussed it with my mother (who comes from a certain, gay-hating conservative country) and she said she'd be completely fine with me if I was gay. So I guess I don't have anything to worry about there.
The only real thing that bugs me about bisexuality is the myth that people who are bisexual are just "switching from being gay to straight every time." If they're in relationships with people of both genders, then they're bisexual. Simple as that. Although I do actually agree with the fact that there are certain people out there who say they're bisexual and would happily make out with people of the same gender in front of other people, but don't actually take it seriously enough/go all the way when offered to actually have sex with/be in a relationship with a person of the same sex.

autisticdragonkin said:
I feel like there is a small chance that I might be transgender but I have no idea what that would feel like and I hate tumblr
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How small we talking? I'm no expert, but to be transgender you'd need to have gender dysphoria, which is a mental state.
 
autisticdragonkin said:
I feel like there is a small chance that I might be transgender but I have no idea what that would feel like and I hate tumblr
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I always likened dysphoria to an experience someone told me about. This may seem stupid, but the way they described it, it fits.

This person liked pickles. She thought they looked very good and smelled great. So one day she was very excited to try it, but only to her dismay, she discovered that she didn't like them. The texture and taste didn't appeal to her---infact, it made her a little sick.

That's how living in the wrong sex is for some trans people. They want to live in the body their biology gave them. They can appreciate the characteristics of it and how it looks, but the difference is, they don't like it on them. Trans people are constantly "tasting" a "pickle." Every single day. And the effects can be severe to mild. Some trans people can't bear seeing their face or even touch their body, while others can acknowledge their biology but not be happy with it.
 
Redeemer and Destroyer said:
I always likened dysphoria to an experience someone told me about. This may seem stupid, but the way they described it, it fits.

This person liked pickles. She thought they looked very good and smelled great. So one day she was very excited to try it, but only to her dismay, she discovered that she didn't like them. The texture and taste didn't appeal to her---infact, it made her a little sick.

That's how living in the wrong sex is for some trans people. They want to live in the body their biology gave them. They can appreciate the characteristics of it and how it looks, but the difference is, they don't like it on them. Trans people are constantly "tasting" a "pickle." Every single day. And the effects can be severe to mild. Some trans people can't bear seeing their face or even touch their body, while others can acknowledge their biology but not be happy with it.
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That is the exact opposite of what I thought dysphoria would feel like
 
Magpie said:
What would you expect from dysphoria? Sunshine and happiness?

edit: I don't mean to sound snide even though that came off as such
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Feeling like one is doomed to live as one gender as opposed to the other one. Essentially feeling (emotionally not rationally) like living as their assigned gender is inferior and having a sort of uncomfortable resignation to it
 
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