Red Letter Media

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Favorite recurring character? (Select 4)

  • Jack / AIDSMobdy

    Votes: 257 24.0%
  • Josh / the Wizard

    Votes: 77 7.2%
  • Colin (Canadian #1)

    Votes: 460 42.9%
  • Jim (Canadian #2)

    Votes: 230 21.4%
  • Tim

    Votes: 386 36.0%
  • Len Kabasinski

    Votes: 208 19.4%
  • Freddie Williams

    Votes: 274 25.5%
  • Patton Oswalt

    Votes: 27 2.5%
  • Macaulay Culkin

    Votes: 541 50.4%
  • Max Landis

    Votes: 64 6.0%

  • Total voters
    1,073
That major characters should, in a film, have distinct, memorable and identifiable personality traits seems like a reasonable premise, but how many widely-acknowledged "great" films describe their characters only in such terms? Citizen Kane opens with an extended narration of Kane's career as a newspaper magnate. Taxi Driver's screenplay begins with a three-paragraph physical description of Travis Bickle. I think the RLM crew are just overthinking things a little.
This is turning into the argument sketch...
"I came here for an argument."
"No you didn't, you came here for an argument."

You're just literally stating the point RLM is making, providing proofs which reinforce the point RLM is making, and then declaring RLM as... wrong? Overthinking it? At this point, do you even know what your disagreeing on? You emphasize the word "only" above, but who brought that up? Not I. Way back a few pages I said:

The more words and descriptions you can use, the stronger the character.​
It's a very handy and quick test you can engage normies with without going into autistic writing sperging.​
It's a simple and effective scale to weigh the strength of a character on. What is your issue with it?

That rather reinforces my point.

It also reinforces RLM's point.
 
This is turning into the argument sketch...
"I came here for an argument."
"No you didn't, you came here for an argument."

You're just literally stating the point RLM is making, providing proofs which reinforce the point RLM is making, and then declaring RLM as... wrong? Overthinking it? At this point, do you even know what your disagreeing on? You emphasize the word "only" above, but who brought that up? Not I. Way back a few pages I said:

The more words and descriptions you can use, the stronger the character.​
It's a very handy and quick test you can engage normies with without going into autistic writing sperging.​
It's a simple and effective scale to weigh the strength of a character on. What is your issue with it?



It also reinforces RLM's point.

I didn't even engage with this rejoinder, because I no longer understand what point he's trying to make. It seemed to be that Kane and Taxi Driver were well regarded works that depended purely on surface level character description, but he seems to be saying it was the opposite of that. I guess.

Whether he came for an argument or not, this is about to become the Abuse Clinic, I fear.
 
Well we are talking about a combination of the two manliest hunks of that decade. Seemed self-evident.
51XrOHwLJwL._SY346_.jpg
 
You're just literally stating the point RLM is making, providing proofs which reinforce the point RLM is making, and then declaring RLM as... wrong? Overthinking it? At this point, do you even know what your disagreeing on?
Isn't it rather obvious? I've said several times now that the "Plinkett" test's forbidding reference to occupation and physical appearance as character descriptors seems arbitrary and unreasonable, since cinema is a visual medium and relies on visual information in addition to words to tell a story.

You emphasize the word "only" above, but who brought that up? Not I.
I don't recall suggesting that you did. You did, however, post this:

...which does seem to put a certain amount of (ALLCAPS) emphasis on trying to describe a character without making reference to appearance or occupation. The bit about "describe this character to your friends as if they ain't never seen Star Wars" seems especially misplaced, considering that screenplays, even those for very highly-regarded films, frequently delve into descriptions of the characters' physical appearances or reference their occupations, and their purpose is, in part, to introduce people (producers, directors, actors, whatever) to characters "they ain't never seen."
It's a simple and effective scale to weigh the strength of a character on. What is your issue with it?
See above.

I suppose that I could add one more thing, which is that using the "Plinkett" test a setup to present the RLM crew as "real people" who can't attribute any noteworthy characteristics to Liam Neeson's Qui-Gon Jinn, as though Stoklasa were conducting random, man-on-the-street interviews is a rather dishonest (one might go so far as to say slimy) tactic.
 
Isn't it rather obvious? I've said several times now that the "Plinkett" test's forbidding reference to occupation and physical appearance as character descriptors seems arbitrary and unreasonable, since cinema is a visual medium and relies on visual information in addition to words to tell a story.

It's not arbitrary.

Yes, the film tells you lots of stuff about a character through many clues: visual, spoken, etc. The point of the test is then can the audience take those clues, and then interpret them to somebody ignorant of the source.

If the person performing the test just describes the visual information - then you're just repeating the movie.

Let me put it this way: If an interpreter is taking a sentence in one language, then translating it into a different language, it's kind of missing the point for you to go, "Well why don't they just repeat the sentence in the original language?"

That's rather missing the whole point of the effort in interpretation. Just like missing the whole point about the character test.

...which does seem to put a certain amount of (ALLCAPS) emphasis on trying to describe a character without making reference to appearance or occupation. The bit about "describe this character to your friends as if they ain't never seen Star Wars" seems especially misplaced, considering that screenplays, even those for very highly-regarded films, frequently delve into descriptions of the characters' physical appearances or reference their occupations, and their purpose is, in part, to introduce people (producers, directors, actors, whatever) to characters "they ain't never seen."

I'm a highly literal robot and even I think you're reaching new heights of autism here. You do know what a "test" means, correct? And that tests aren't typically the end goal, but a process applied?

You get that if we were to apply a color gradient test to the film, we're not actually making the film, right? We're checking it.

I suppose that I could add one more thing, which is that using the "Plinkett" test a setup to present the RLM crew as "real people" who can't attribute any noteworthy characteristics to Liam Neeson's Qui-Gon Jinn, as though Stoklasa were conducting random, man-on-the-street interviews is a rather dishonest (one might go so far as to say slimy) tactic.
I doubt those were real hookers too.

Jay is his own grandfather.

Well the HitB storylines have gone to weirder places.
 
It's not arbitrary.

Yes, the film tells you lots of stuff about a character through many clues: visual, spoken, etc. The point of the test is then can the audience take those clues, and then interpret them to somebody ignorant of the source.

If the person performing the test just describes the visual information - then you're just repeating the movie.

Let me put it this way: If an interpreter is taking a sentence in one language, then translating it into a different language, it's kind of missing the point for you to go, "Well why don't they just repeat the sentence in the original language?"

That's rather missing the whole point of the effort in interpretation. Just like missing the whole point about the character test.



I'm a highly literal robot and even I think you're reaching new heights of autism here. You do know what a "test" means, correct? And that tests aren't typically the end goal, but a process applied?

You get that if we were to apply a color gradient test to the film, we're not actually making the film, right? We're checking it.


I doubt those were real hookers too.



Well the HitB storylines have gone to weirder places.
Once upon a time, I thought that your Blank Canvas Filmmaking theory was an interesting thought experiment and nothing more.
But thanks to Cyril's adamant insistence that the Prequels are super deep and we're all just too dumb to parse the depths of its characters and themes I have now come to appreciate the true power of the Blank Canvas.
Anything can seem to be misunderstood genius if you spend 20 years desperately spinning and justifying the source material in your fanboy addled head.
It's all so clear to our dear Sneer, why can't everyone else see it?
I suppose Lucas deserves credit for the fact that he didn't do it on purpose.
Whereas with the Sequels and most modern films its 100% deliberate.
And to think that people once thought that J.J Abrams, the undisputed master of the Blank Canvas, would be the guy to return Star Wars to glory.
 
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Once upon a time, I thought that your Blank Canvas Filmmaking theory was an interesting thought experiment and nothing more.
But thanks to Cyril's adamant insistence that the Prequels are super deep and we're all just too dumb to parse the depths of its characters and themes I have now come to appreciate the true power of the Blank Canvas.
Anything can seem to be misunderstood genius if you spend 20 years desperately spinning and justifying the source material in your fanboy addled head.
It's all so clear to our dear Sneer, why can't everyone else see it?
I suppose Lucas deserves credit for the fact that he didn't do it on purpose.
Whereas with the Sequels and most modern films its 100% deliberate.
And to think that people once thought that J.J Abrams, the undisputed master of the Blank Canvas, would be the guy to return Star Wars to glory.
Seriously though I like the Prequels I just acknowledge that that's nostalgia talking.
This isn't my first fandom squabble over what was in people's heads vs on screen. ;) The real fun is when there is a clear, unambiguous contradiction in the text.

What do you think Mike thinks of the whole Minneapolis ordeal?
That they're rioting over ST: Picard.
 
Isn't it rather obvious? I've said several times now that the "Plinkett" test's forbidding reference to occupation and physical appearance as character descriptors seems arbitrary and unreasonable, since cinema is a visual medium and relies on visual information in addition to words to tell a story.
The "Plinkett Test" doesn't forbid the use of occupation or appearance since it's supposedly irrelevant to the character, part of the reason is to see if the character can be distiguished by only his personality without referencing his visual appearance or profession. This is also why references to concrete actions are to be avoided.

When I tell you "This character is a bit naive and a dreamer. This character wants to be part of something bigger and wants to be a hero that does the right thing. This character has to face many threats and slowly becomes a much wiser and mighty person." You will know I am not talking about Han Solo. You will know I am not talking about Leia.
Similarly: "This character is a bit of a smarmy person with rogueish charm, who's out for him/herself, only wants to make some money with an easy job and then leave, but is dragged into the fray and eventually chooses the side of the heroes" you know who I am talking about, too, and I only described their actions in the broadest terms possible and did not hint at their occupation at all.

I do not need to explain who these people are by telling you one is a dirtfarmer and the other is a pilot, cause it's not part of their personality. The fact that you can make educated guesses about their personality based on their profession is irrelevant, since it's just guesswork and could be completely off, if that character goes against the grain of his occupation.
Point in case: "The person is a Stormtrooper."
Wow. Much detail such description. Now, who was I talking about?

This guy?
st05.jpg


One of these guys?
st02.jpg


Maybe one of these guys?
st01.jpg


Or one of these?
st03.jpg


Nah, it was someone special, you know... who interacted with an important character, can you guess it yet?
Was it maybe this guy?
st04.jpg


Sorry. I think I was dragging this on for a bit too long, when we all know who I was talking about all along:
st06.png

This guy on the left, clearly. And based on his profession we know he's a "skilled marksman", "dutiful" and "loyal to his cause". What great characterization it was to point out his occupation and how helpful that information was to identify him!

You can go into great detail about the personality of Han Solo, Luke, Leia, Obi Wan in the OT. You can't really say the same about the PT characters, cause they are poorly written and very subdued. For instance, what kind of personality does Amidala have, aside being into kiddy diddling? Qui Gonn and PT Obi-Wan are pretty underwhelming too. Seems to me, their personalities can be summed up with single word descriptions ("calm" and "rookie" respectively) cause they are so basic and boring and have nothing much else to offer.

The OT has a nice little scene where we can marvel at the personalities of Han, Obi Wan and Luke (admittedly, mostly Han):

2 short minutes and we learn so much about Han, we see a bit of Obi Wan's personality and what he thinks of Han, we also see Luke's slight naivity and his rashness.
Nothing majorly important happens, only hiring a pilot and haggling over the money, yet the personalities of everyone on screen oozes out of every line of dialogue delivered and Obi Wan's face in reaction to the Kessel Run line is pure gold.
 
Rewatched Willy Wonka just recently. For a movie made in the 70s it hold up excellently. Should be an interesting re:View.
 
Wonder if they'll rotate someone else in for Re:view or if it'll end up Mike and Jay again. Either way, it'll be nice to be in the loop for once. I usually haven't seen whatever they're talking about but most people are familiar with Willy Wonka to some extent, myself included. I hope they contrast it with the newer film more then they let on. That one was fucking awful. Why did they feel the need to give Wonka some sort of creepy tragic back story? Not to mention how Depp's Wonka is basically autistic vs Wilder's thoughtful Wonka. You never get the feeling that Wilder isn't playing a fully developed adult in control at all times. Depp just goes full retard.
 
Wonder if they'll rotate someone else in for Re:view or if it'll end up Mike and Jay again. Either way, it'll be nice to be in the loop for once. I usually haven't seen whatever they're talking about but most people are familiar with Willy Wonka to some extent, myself included. I hope they contrast it with the newer film more then they let on. That one was fucking awful. Why did they feel the need to give Wonka some sort of creepy tragic back story? Not to mention how Depp's Wonka is basically autistic vs Wilder's thoughtful Wonka. You never get the feeling that Wilder isn't playing a fully developed adult in control at all times. Depp just goes full retard.

I never saw the remake because the idea that anyone could ever hope to match Wilder's performance as Wonka was insane.
 
It's not arbitrary.

Yes, the film tells you lots of stuff about a character through many clues: visual, spoken, etc. The point of the test is then can the audience take those clues, and then interpret them to somebody ignorant of the source.
Which seems like a highly arbitrary means of assessing the quality of the film in question. Can you, of the top of your head, jumble together a word-salad of attributes for each major character in the story? No? Then it's obviously a bad film, QED.

That's just a little bit too black-and-white for my tastes.

If the person performing the test just describes the visual information - then you're just repeating the movie.

Let me put it this way: If an interpreter is taking a sentence in one language, then translating it into a different language, it's kind of missing the point for you to go, "Well why don't they just repeat the sentence in the original language?"
Where did I say that one was to only describe visual information? I explicitly criticized the "Plinkett" test in my previous post for relying solely on spoken description in defiance of the fact that cinema is a mixed medium. 🤔

I'm a highly literal robot and even I think you're reaching new heights of autism here. You do know what a "test" means, correct? And that tests aren't typically the end goal, but a process applied?
As stated previously, the process is flawed, although that is probably rather secondary to the apparent end goal of creating a misleadingly negative impression of the Prequels' level of characterization vs. the Original Trilogy.

I doubt those were real hookers too.
I don't think he got a cat pregnant, either, but neither of those incidents occurred onscreen, and in such a way as to give the impression to the casual viewer that what he was seeing could plausibly be real rather than an acted-out scene from Mike's script.

The "Plinkett Test" doesn't forbid the use of occupation or appearance since it's supposedly irrelevant to the character, part of the reason is to see if the character can be distiguished by only his personality without referencing his visual appearance or profession. This is also why references to concrete actions are to be avoided.
You mean it does, don't you? The screencap that @Flexo posted was pretty explicit about that.

When I tell you "This character is a bit naive and a dreamer. This character wants to be part of something bigger and wants to be a hero that does the right thing. This character has to face many threats and slowly becomes a much wiser and mighty person." You will know I am not talking about Han Solo. You will know I am not talking about Leia.
Similarly: "This character is a bit of a smarmy person with rogueish charm, who's out for him/herself, only wants to make some money with an easy job and then leave, but is dragged into the fray and eventually chooses the side of the heroes" you know who I am talking about, too, and I only described their actions in the broadest terms possible and did not hint at their occupation at all.
I know that you're talking about Luke and Han, respectively, because this discussion is implicitly-to-explicitly concerned with Star Wars. However, the naive, dreamy hero and the selfish rogue with a heart of gold are pretty widely-distributed archetypes in fiction and as such not hugely useful in describing specific characters without additional detail or context.

I do not need to explain who these people are by telling you one is a dirtfarmer and the other is a pilot, cause it's not part of their personality. The fact that you can make educated guesses about their personality based on their profession is irrelevant, since it's just guesswork and could be completely off, if that character goes against the grain of his occupation.

Point in case: "The person is a Stormtrooper."
Wow. Much detail such description.
By the same token, there's no real need to omit the character's occupation. It's not going to add or detract anything if you say "this character is a soldier who (blah-blah-blah)."

You can go into great detail about the personality of Han Solo, Luke, Leia, Obi Wan in the OT. You can't really say the same about the PT characters, cause they are poorly written and very subdued. For instance, what kind of personality does Amidala have, aside being into kiddy diddling? Qui Gonn and PT Obi-Wan are pretty underwhelming too. Seems to me, their personalities can be summed up with single word descriptions ("calm" and "rookie" respectively) cause they are so basic and boring and have nothing much else to offer.
A dishonest reviewer could as easily boil Luke ("eager"), Han ("roguish") and Leia ("spunky") down to a singular character tic and it would be just as fair and valid an assessment.

Let's try the reverse instead.

Character 1: This character is wise and experienced. He evinces maturity and compassion, understanding that life is often too complicated to write into a set of neat rules, which puts him at odds with his ostensible allies and holds him back from achieving more influence and power, but he does not value such things. Instead, this maverick marches to the tune of his own drummer, and goes out of his way to help the down-trodden and weak, although he's not above a little trickery if he believes that the cause is sufficiently important. Strong and brave, yet supportive and trusting, he radiates an idealized paternal authority to the younger characters who journey with him, and his premature death will have earth-shaking consequences for the entire world.

Character 2: This character is teetering on the verge of maturity, but is held back by his doubts and fears. Despite possessing great physical courage, to the point of being almost completely fearless, he finds the prospect of thinking for himself extremely intimidating, and when faced with a problem usually reverts to parroting authority figures rather than trying to apply his knowledge and experience contextually to the situation at hand. Despite this somewhat robotic approach to life, he's neither stupid nor dull, but instead delights in an impish sense of humor, and often shrugs off trouble with a wry grin and a sarcastic quip, but his by-the-book attitude and a tendency to try and dispassionately prioritize things leaves him vulnerable to coming off as stern and unsympathetic. This inability to "think outside the box," and stop trying to judge an unpredictable, complicated universe through the medium of a simplistic, received formula will eventually and inevitably shape him into the unwitting catalyst for a vast tragedy.

Character 3: This character is isolated and sad. She possesses great warmth, kindness and compassion for others, both those she feels responsibility for and also complete strangers, but the duties that she upholds and the stresses that she therefore endures constrain her freedom to act according to her instincts and force her to mask her true nature behind an elaborate dance of deception. Consequently, she has become skeptical and cunning, concocting ruses to allow her to move freely and observe without being observed. Growing more and more dissatisfied with her inability to act for the greater good through her public persona, she eventually drops the act altogether and rallies allies to her side through her personal courage and humility, resulting in a great victory for her cause. Unbeknownst to her, however, her sincerity, earnestness and purity of intent ironically serve to enable a far greater evil than the one that she stood up to oppose in the first place.
 
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