Red Dead 3/Red Dead Redemption 2 - IT'S HAPPENING.gif

[William Murderface]

I think both Arthur and John grow and change for the better in RDR2. We get to see John in RDR1 as the matured John that has already learned the lessons he needed to, and be able to dust off those gunslinger skills (and I totally thought the Landon Ricketts teaching John gunslinging was totally out of place for a character who A) has this already established background as a gunslinger who had to come out of retirement and B) who just got done shooting up half of New Austin just to find out Bill escaped to Mexico).

And at the beginning of RDR2, John doesn't want to be a father to Jack. He's already bailed from the gang for a year, he tells Arthur he isn't even sure Jack is his, and Arthur calls him on it when they rob the shepherds and tells him that he either needs to be an outlaw or be a father because he can't be both. Arthur knows this from personal experience since Lyle Morgan was a terrible father to Arthur and ended up at the end of a rope himself. And it isn't until Jack is kidnapped by the Braithwaites that he decided he has to be a father and once he gets Jack back from Bronte that he and Abigail and Jack become a family unit. It's almost like at that moment that John starts to figure out that he has to get away from the gang but doesn't know how until Arthur says he'll help them.

And I think a big piece of John's reluctance to be a father comes down to him not wanting to make the same mistakes his own father did. He wants to be a better father, but it isn't until Abigail leaves him in Epilogue 1 that he has to make the effort to do it. I know a lot of people have said Abigail is a nag, but I think she really just wants a better life for Jack and John and has to push John to make the effort because John just doesn't know how to leave the gunslinger life because until he went to work at the Geddes Ranch, gunslinging was pretty much the only life he had ever known. John just couldn't make the mental leap to decide to walk away from that life, so Abigail made him decide: me and Jack or keep on being a gunslinger. And that was the push John needed.

Arthur, on the other hand, had seen both sides of the gunslinger/family conundrum. His father was a criminal and a terrible father, and his own son was killed by men just like him. And that hardened something in him and it wasn't until taking Jack fishing that he started to melt a little, at least to the point that he was able to tell John that he had to choose one or the other for Jack's sake. And by then he realized that he had messed up by staying with Dutch over staying with Mary. He had his code and loyalty was priority number one, but later on he tells John "be loyal to what matters", a lesson he had to learn the hard way.

And by the time the gang get ready to hit the bank, Arthur had already begun to doubt Dutch, but he felt he had no other options but to stay with Dutch, but had already been thinking about just how much longer the gang had, and once he got back from Guarma and was told he was dying, he knew the whole thing was over and he had to get John, Abigail, and Jack out, if no one else. Contrast that with the Colter chapter and when he and Hosea go hunting and how bitter he was about John leaving for a year. It wasn't just about trying to make amends for the bad he's done over the years, but that Arthur realized he needed to be loyal to what matters: getting the people in the gang to safety, which meant getting them away from Dutch. And that's where the growth for Arthur comes into play. In the end he turns his back on Dutch to save his family, something the Arthur of the early chapters would never have done.

tl;dr
John learns to be a family man, Arthur learns to be loyal to what matters.

I've started to dislike Red Dead Redemption II just because of how stupid people on the internet have to make everything in Red Dead Redemption 1 about the prequel. Not everything about the first game has to be about Arthur somehow

That is very, very true. Arthur did what he did, which was to buy John a chance to get his life together for Abigail and Jack, but he had been dead twelve years by the time RDR1 kicks off. About the only thing Arthur would have to do with that story would be if John, Abigail, and Uncle were sitting around one night talking about the old days, but John even says in a snippet of conversation in 1907 that while he thinks about Arthur a lot, he just doesn't see the need in talking about him. And honestly, Jack really shouldn't remember Arthur at all, or if he does, in just fleeting glimpses. He was only 4 when the gang broke up and who remembers much from when they are four anyway? He may not even have real memories so much as heard stories and built memories in his head. He might remember hearing the gunfights at Shady Belle and Lagras, but remembering Arthur taking him fishing one time? I doubt that as much as him hearing a story about how Arthur and Hosea were fishermen and took him fishing once and built up a memory.

 

[DeadwastePrime]

main issue i have with it is linearity in missions. otherwise itd be a 10/10 experience cause outside the missions its great gameplaywise

 

[Snekposter]

Contrast that with the Colter chapter and when he and Hosea go hunting and how bitter he was about John leaving for a year.

The hunting is actually in Chapter 2 at Horseshoe Overlook. And he's pissed at John for the same reason he winds up turning his back on Dutch: loyalty. A lot of that early game is about him bitching at John for his perceived disloyalty, not to Dutch but the gang as a whole, since there's supposed to be rules and Dutch actually broke them to let John back in, which Arthur is unsurprisingly unhappy about. I don't know when Arthur changes his mind and comes to terms with the fact that maybe the gang isn't all its cracked up to be. When you ride with John to recon Shady Belle at the end of Ch. 3 John mentions he was talking about running away again on the mountain and Arthur is rather understanding of John. IMO it also isn't Guarma that sealed the deal, mostly because I doubt he would have stuck around with them to go to Tahiti or wherever since Dutch couldn't decide between that or Australia. I don't know if it was just a game glitch or something but when I did A Dish Best Eaten to kill Bronte Arthur's jaw was dropping the whole time as Dutch lost it and drowned the man before turning him into gator food. I think then is when Arthur really decided Dutch was losing it. On Guarma you can tell Dutch was already going to kill that woman no matter what by the way he begins to put his arm around her, and the fact he has no good explanation as to why he killed her so violently like Bronte just puts a cap in everything. Once he realizes the clock is finally ticking down fast, he decides to stick around, undo some of the bad he did with the Downes family and in general, and tries to get the gang out and away from the destructive life they're leading, not just for themselves but everyone else around them.

He was only 4 when the gang broke up and who remembers much from when they are four anyway?

You'd be surprised. There's probably a vague snippet in his head of time two bad men named Milton and Ross came up to him when he was making a necklace for Mommy down by the creek, and that Uncle Arthur had promised him a new book. He's not going to remember anything about the fishing at all, just that necklace time was interrupted by two scary men.

 

[William Murderface]

The hunting is actually in Chapter 2 at Horseshoe Overlook. And he's pissed at John for the same reason he winds up turning his back on Dutch: loyalty. A lot of that early game is about him bitching at John for his perceived disloyalty, not to Dutch but the gang as a whole, since there's supposed to be rules and Dutch actually broke them to let John back in, which Arthur is unsurprisingly unhappy about. I don't know when Arthur changes his mind and comes to terms with the fact that maybe the gang isn't all its cracked up to be.

I meant Arthur mentions John leaving while they are in Colter. When he and Javier were going to look for John, he says something like "John might have just kept riding North for all we know. He's done it before." Then when the and Hosea go hunting while they are outside of Valentine he says that John was gone a year and Arthur was clearly bitter about the whole thing.

I suspect part of Arthur's disillusionment started when Dutch asked him to get Micah from the jail in Strawberry and Micah shoots up half the town and Dutch doesn't care in the least. This was right on the heels of the Blackwater Massacre and then when he runs into Mary Linton and it reminds him of just what he's traded to stay with Dutch and he sees John in a similar predicament with Jack and Abigail and how he's been loyal for all these years and they still haven't quite reached Dutch's paradise.

And then there is Hosea. Bessie knew what he was and somewhere is dialog where me mentions only coming back to Dutch and Arthur only after Bessie died. And there are indications that Hosea is dying. He has a cough, he's mentioned not having much time left and wanting people safe, and he keeps arguing with Dutch that Dutch is making stupid mistakes (the Blackwater Ferry instead of whatever thing he and Arthur had going on, heading East instead of heading West, holding up a Cornwell train, etc.), that the gang is becoming nothing more than killers and that while Arthur is loyal to Dutch, was that really what he wanted to be? It was a slow progression even without John, Abigail, and Jack in the mix.

 

[HeyYou]

They actually did some research into the guns. Granted not a lot, but some. Sadly they went with stuff like the Mauser and FN Model 1899 because everyone knows about those or can guess instead of some of the stuff that you'd be more likely to find in the USA, especially in the 1907 map. I guess a quasi-1911 would be too out there for a Wild West setting though, either in its .38 ACP or .45 ACP form.

I was pretty disappointed how in general the guns were pretty much identical to RDR1. Hell, it had less than RDR1 for ages because the Evans had to be patched in ahead of the PC port. It made sense for some of them, the SAA and Model 1873 would have been ubiquitous, but you couldn't think of any interesting guns to replace/add to the Mauser, Borchardt, or Volcanic pistol? And why the hell is the 1866/1873 in the game but not the 1892 from RDR1 despite the time period still making sense? We never got any of the online exclusive guns like the Colt 1851 Navy either which is particularly baffling because singleplayer got the LeMat so fuck you if you wanted to complete your Civil War revolver collection. I actually liked the 1899 appearing, though, something like the 1900 would have been a little too similar to RDR1's 1903.

 

[Snekposter]

I meant Arthur mentions John leaving while they are in Colter. When he and Javier were going to look for John, he says something like "John might have just kept riding North for all we know. He's done it before." Then when the and Hosea go hunting while they are outside of Valentine he says that John was gone a year and Arthur was clearly bitter about the whole thing.

Ah, right, I misread your statement and thought you were talking about one event and not two separate ones. You are right about that, I believe Hosea has some sort of respiratory problem since when you move down to Clemens Point Dutch remarks the weather might be good for Hosea's pipes.

I was pretty disappointed how in general the guns were pretty much identical to RDR1. Hell, it had less than RDR1 for ages because the Evans had to be patched in ahead of the PC port. It made sense for some of them, the SAA and Model 1873 would have been ubiquitous, but you couldn't think of any interesting guns to replace/add to the Mauser, Borchardt, or Volcanic pistol? And why the hell is the 1866/1873 in the game but not the 1892 from RDR1 despite the time period still making sense? We never got any of the online exclusive guns like the Colt 1851 Navy either which is particularly baffling because singleplayer got the LeMat so fuck you if you wanted to complete your Civil War revolver collection. I actually liked the 1899 appearing, though, something like the 1900 would have been a little too similar to RDR1's 1903.

Well, for starters I think most people would want weapon continuity, but the fact there weren't any additions is annoying, agreed. Personally I think the issue is that you can only do so much with guns without creating outright upgrades. So you've got the SAA, because that's everywhere and the Schofield for the same reason, and the New Army double-action in .38/.41 Colt, but then you've got the Colt New Service which was a double-action .45, the S&W Model 10 which was a DA .38 Special. It isn't until the 1900's that you get the new, fancy semi-autos, and as for repeaters its uh... Winchesters and the Evans, just getting bigger with stuff like the 1886 that fired .45-70? There were a few Colt pump-action ones you could use, but they were almost identical otherwise. For rifles you've got the Springfield, the Krag, and a few bolt-actions in .45-70. Sniper rifles are ironically where you can have the most fun, with the Rolling Block, the Winchester Single Shot, and Sharps all in use and with extremely potent, different calibers, but they're all single-shot weapons and would play almost identically as a result, and it isn't until the turn of the century when smokeless rounds show up you see more differentiation.

You run into the same problem with any RDR3 starring Jack, since all the semi-autos have blended together except the M1911.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

If they ever bother making Red Dead 3 and it doesn't suck (RDR2 was good, I just have a feeling RDR3 will suck a big one), we need some good saloon brawling mechanics like hitting people with chairs and throwing people out into the street, smashing them into windows, and such. It's such a thing in Westerns (right up their with gun duels), and I loved that there was a saloon brawl mission, just think being able to interact with the furniture as weapons and have people in saloons try to start shit would be great. RDR2 was already a MASSIVE improvement over RDR1 in the melee fighting.

Since you all are talking about RDR3, I most emphatically do NOT want it more modern - I want to go back, like 1870s or earlier, this "death of the West" shit is old and tired and Landon Ricketts is the obvious hero for a "golden age of the west" prequel - but if they did go forward in time, I'd say don't make it Mafia shit, last thing I want, completely goes against the spirit of these games. Those people can go play Mafia. Make it be about Depression-era bank robbers. 1930s, Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde. Men with tommy guns shooting out of goofy little cars across the American heartland, option of barnstorming planes. It fits in perfectly, social banditry, American folk heroes, you could even say the 1930s was just a last gasp of the Western banditry.

 

[Leftists=Pedophiles]

I still think John is a better man than Arthur in just about every regard. He actually managed to learn from all the sacrifices, actually got some hard lessons through his skull and went to hell and back for his family. They're both interesting protagonists and I like them a lot but Arthur felt like he was a story showing what happens if you don't wise up and change until its way too late.

John also doesn't have an awkward cuckout moment to an uppity nigger because the writers needed to get the reddit updoots. Yeah sure, this 19th century badass just allows this prick to besmirch his race and he's perfectly willing to risk his life to get racial justice. Fuck off.

 

[Bunny Tracks]

All I want is for RDR3 to either not be about the Van der Linde gang, or if it has to be, it focuses on Jack.

 

[xXx: State of the Union]

I don't think there's going to be a RDR3 tbh

 

[White Devil]

I don't think there's going to be a RDR3 tbh

I think it would be best for all if current R* went under.

 

[Ser Prize]

I don't think there's going to be a RDR3 tbh

I don't want there to be. RDR2 was woke already in 2018. Imagine if it came out now.

 

[TVB]

I don't want there to be. RDR2 was woke already in 2018. Imagine if it came out now.

If RDR2 came out five years earlier, then it wouldn't have been half-baked. Even then, we'll never get a third game, and it's for the best.

 

[Korpon]

All I want is for RDR3 to either not be about the Van der Linde gang, or if it has to be, it focuses on Jack.

If they do it and it has to be Jack I wouldn't mind seeing it take place right after WW1 ending, maybe have Jack get drafted and it be about him getting back into society but getting drawn to the criminal/outlaw life like John, while still dealing with the loss of his parents. Multiple endings depending on decisions, etc. I always liked the Interwar period and you don't see it often in games. Or they can (and I would prefer) they just do something new, maybe set during the Civil War.

 

[William Murderface]

If RDR had to be revisited, I wouldn't mind seeing more of a Man With No Name trilogy vibe or Hang 'Em High/High Plains Drifter deal. Just a series of straight up heists and backstabbings and sundry side events and characters but instead of the goal of being to get back to my family or get my family to safety, it's all about the gold.

Or a game that is straight up "I'm hunting those guys down because they did me wrong and no one is going to stop me". You can put in the moral redemption story in either one of those and even have the character arc end up where he lets the gold go to save the orphanage from the banditos or has the opportunity to get revenge but opts to go for justice instead kind of endings.

If a RDR3 had to have a post WW1 Jack (and again, I'd rather Jack's story be over after killing Ross), there was a movie called Last Man Standing that came out in the mid-90s. Bruce Willis plays a ne'er-do-well who is on the run, ends up in some dirt poor Texas border town in the 1920s, is caught between two Chicago bootlegging gangs, there's corruption and a weak sheriff, a woman who belongs to one of the gang leaders, you get the idea. Trade in the Model Ts for horses and the Tommy Guns for Winchesters and it works just great as a western. It wasn't a great movie (it was not a fun movie where the actors clearly enjoyed themselves and there was no humor to speak of), but it wasn't eye-rollingly bad either. It could be something along those lines.

 

[Mega Black]

people have said Abigail is a nag, but I think she really just wants a better life for Jack and John and has to push John to make the effort because John just doesn't know how to leave the gunslinger life because until he went to work at the Geddes Ranch, gunslinging was pretty much the only life he had ever known.

I always felt like this too. Abigail is kind of a cunt but John is kind of a dolt who needs a woman like Abigail around to keep him in line. There's moments where she goes too far, sure, but it's also worth noting that the whole reason they are even back in the game's map is because John upended their whole life elsewhere by shooting a guy for what even he admits was no real good reason.

Imagine your wife comes to you after a normal day and tells you that you have to pack everything you can carry up and trek cross country in a wagon because she wasted some idiot at the bar. You'd be pissed too.

All I want is for RDR3 to either not be about the Van der Linde gang, or if it has to be, it focuses on Jack.

I want a game that covers the height of the wild west, no more Vanderlins. I'd say a Landon Rickets game would be alright, though I'd prefer something totally disconnected.

Or a game that is straight up "I'm hunting those guys down because they did me wrong and no one is going to stop me

Red Dead Revenge has a nice ring to it.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

So Red Dead 2 had a generally nice rendition of New Austin, Great Plains, and Blackwater. (Little ironic that it's "great plains" ended up being tiny compared to another Great Plains-like area in New Hanover.) Already mentioned before how well Tumbleweed and cactus forests feel, and also really good design of that starting area that feels like the Texas Hill Country. Thieves Landing was a little lame, it felt too bright compared to the gloom it was supposed to have.

I have much more mixed feelings about Tall Trees. On one hand, i love that they reimagined Tall Trees as being essentially a California sequoyah forest, because I love sequoyahs. Huge red things, totally different feeling than being in other styles of forests. But, the big downside was that they took away the Winter. Now, Ambarino already had its snowy mountain areas, so that may have been the motivation, but I feel like the snow was a huge part of Tall Trees' visual design and Cochinay just doesn't feel right now, never like playing in that area because it's so off and lacks a cool shtick.

Broke: Undead Nightmare 2
Woke: Cowboys vs Aliens
Bespoke: Big Game Dinosaur Hunter

It’s the right timeframe (ish) and setting (New Hanover as the Plains) for the start of paleontology, and that’s why one of the main collectibles is dinosaur bones.

The lost world at the center of the Earth has cracked open, or an ancient Indian curse has been triggered, whatever, go ride pterosaurs and velociraptors and hunt Trexes with Buffalo rifles.

(You don’t get this IRL. You don’t get any DLC. RDRO needs to be fed more money.)

 

[William Murderface]

I would spend money on that.

You collect the last of the dinosaur bones for the lady, take them back to her house, and instead of just getting a knife, it opens an unholy portal to the past and unleashes like 30 dinosaurs that you have to hunt down (one for each bone). They eat their way across the states, there's all kinds of havoc, and only once you have killed the last of them and brought her the skins does Rains Fall show up to reverse the curse. No one but you and him remember it, but you end up with a sweet jawbone knife and a cool trinket or talisman.

Arthur Morgan: Dinosaur Hunter.

 

[Bunny Tracks]

I wish we could have more than four horses at a time.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

I wish we could purchase and store vehicles like wagons and stagecoaches (and then drive our gangster friends around in them and do drivebys). It was called GTA San Andreas, it was glorious, and no GTA has ever topped it.

I also wish my horses would die sometimes. Maybe I just got lucky but I don't think I ever had a single one die on me which took some of the oomph out of . I really enjoyed being able to break and then sell horses, though. But that was also a pain in the ass, because to do more than one at a time required some fuckery with riding that broken horse, lassoing a second broken horse, and whistling to keep my original personal mount following me. Shit, why limit the number of horses following at all? Why not include that sheep herding thing as the way to move the crowd? Why not include the sheep herding mission as an introduction to rustling, like the stagecoach robbery was to using the fence, so I can herd up other peopel's cattle, drive them to Valentine, and sell them?