- Joined
- Feb 1, 2023
I think both Arthur and John grow and change for the better in RDR2. We get to see John in RDR1 as the matured John that has already learned the lessons he needed to, and be able to dust off those gunslinger skills (and I totally thought the Landon Ricketts teaching John gunslinging was totally out of place for a character who A) has this already established background as a gunslinger who had to come out of retirement and B) who just got done shooting up half of New Austin just to find out Bill escaped to Mexico).
And at the beginning of RDR2, John doesn't want to be a father to Jack. He's already bailed from the gang for a year, he tells Arthur he isn't even sure Jack is his, and Arthur calls him on it when they rob the shepherds and tells him that he either needs to be an outlaw or be a father because he can't be both. Arthur knows this from personal experience since Lyle Morgan was a terrible father to Arthur and ended up at the end of a rope himself. And it isn't until Jack is kidnapped by the Braithwaites that he decided he has to be a father and once he gets Jack back from Bronte that he and Abigail and Jack become a family unit. It's almost like at that moment that John starts to figure out that he has to get away from the gang but doesn't know how until Arthur says he'll help them.
And I think a big piece of John's reluctance to be a father comes down to him not wanting to make the same mistakes his own father did. He wants to be a better father, but it isn't until Abigail leaves him in Epilogue 1 that he has to make the effort to do it. I know a lot of people have said Abigail is a nag, but I think she really just wants a better life for Jack and John and has to push John to make the effort because John just doesn't know how to leave the gunslinger life because until he went to work at the Geddes Ranch, gunslinging was pretty much the only life he had ever known. John just couldn't make the mental leap to decide to walk away from that life, so Abigail made him decide: me and Jack or keep on being a gunslinger. And that was the push John needed.
Arthur, on the other hand, had seen both sides of the gunslinger/family conundrum. His father was a criminal and a terrible father, and his own son was killed by men just like him. And that hardened something in him and it wasn't until taking Jack fishing that he started to melt a little, at least to the point that he was able to tell John that he had to choose one or the other for Jack's sake. And by then he realized that he had messed up by staying with Dutch over staying with Mary. He had his code and loyalty was priority number one, but later on he tells John "be loyal to what matters", a lesson he had to learn the hard way.
And by the time the gang get ready to hit the bank, Arthur had already begun to doubt Dutch, but he felt he had no other options but to stay with Dutch, but had already been thinking about just how much longer the gang had, and once he got back from Guarma and was told he was dying, he knew the whole thing was over and he had to get John, Abigail, and Jack out, if no one else. Contrast that with the Colter chapter and when he and Hosea go hunting and how bitter he was about John leaving for a year. It wasn't just about trying to make amends for the bad he's done over the years, but that Arthur realized he needed to be loyal to what matters: getting the people in the gang to safety, which meant getting them away from Dutch. And that's where the growth for Arthur comes into play. In the end he turns his back on Dutch to save his family, something the Arthur of the early chapters would never have done.
tl;dr
John learns to be a family man, Arthur learns to be loyal to what matters.
That is very, very true. Arthur did what he did, which was to buy John a chance to get his life together for Abigail and Jack, but he had been dead twelve years by the time RDR1 kicks off. About the only thing Arthur would have to do with that story would be if John, Abigail, and Uncle were sitting around one night talking about the old days, but John even says in a snippet of conversation in 1907 that while he thinks about Arthur a lot, he just doesn't see the need in talking about him. And honestly, Jack really shouldn't remember Arthur at all, or if he does, in just fleeting glimpses. He was only 4 when the gang broke up and who remembers much from when they are four anyway? He may not even have real memories so much as heard stories and built memories in his head. He might remember hearing the gunfights at Shady Belle and Lagras, but remembering Arthur taking him fishing one time? I doubt that as much as him hearing a story about how Arthur and Hosea were fishermen and took him fishing once and built up a memory.
And at the beginning of RDR2, John doesn't want to be a father to Jack. He's already bailed from the gang for a year, he tells Arthur he isn't even sure Jack is his, and Arthur calls him on it when they rob the shepherds and tells him that he either needs to be an outlaw or be a father because he can't be both. Arthur knows this from personal experience since Lyle Morgan was a terrible father to Arthur and ended up at the end of a rope himself. And it isn't until Jack is kidnapped by the Braithwaites that he decided he has to be a father and once he gets Jack back from Bronte that he and Abigail and Jack become a family unit. It's almost like at that moment that John starts to figure out that he has to get away from the gang but doesn't know how until Arthur says he'll help them.
And I think a big piece of John's reluctance to be a father comes down to him not wanting to make the same mistakes his own father did. He wants to be a better father, but it isn't until Abigail leaves him in Epilogue 1 that he has to make the effort to do it. I know a lot of people have said Abigail is a nag, but I think she really just wants a better life for Jack and John and has to push John to make the effort because John just doesn't know how to leave the gunslinger life because until he went to work at the Geddes Ranch, gunslinging was pretty much the only life he had ever known. John just couldn't make the mental leap to decide to walk away from that life, so Abigail made him decide: me and Jack or keep on being a gunslinger. And that was the push John needed.
Arthur, on the other hand, had seen both sides of the gunslinger/family conundrum. His father was a criminal and a terrible father, and his own son was killed by men just like him. And that hardened something in him and it wasn't until taking Jack fishing that he started to melt a little, at least to the point that he was able to tell John that he had to choose one or the other for Jack's sake. And by then he realized that he had messed up by staying with Dutch over staying with Mary. He had his code and loyalty was priority number one, but later on he tells John "be loyal to what matters", a lesson he had to learn the hard way.
And by the time the gang get ready to hit the bank, Arthur had already begun to doubt Dutch, but he felt he had no other options but to stay with Dutch, but had already been thinking about just how much longer the gang had, and once he got back from Guarma and was told he was dying, he knew the whole thing was over and he had to get John, Abigail, and Jack out, if no one else. Contrast that with the Colter chapter and when he and Hosea go hunting and how bitter he was about John leaving for a year. It wasn't just about trying to make amends for the bad he's done over the years, but that Arthur realized he needed to be loyal to what matters: getting the people in the gang to safety, which meant getting them away from Dutch. And that's where the growth for Arthur comes into play. In the end he turns his back on Dutch to save his family, something the Arthur of the early chapters would never have done.
tl;dr
John learns to be a family man, Arthur learns to be loyal to what matters.
That is very, very true. Arthur did what he did, which was to buy John a chance to get his life together for Abigail and Jack, but he had been dead twelve years by the time RDR1 kicks off. About the only thing Arthur would have to do with that story would be if John, Abigail, and Uncle were sitting around one night talking about the old days, but John even says in a snippet of conversation in 1907 that while he thinks about Arthur a lot, he just doesn't see the need in talking about him. And honestly, Jack really shouldn't remember Arthur at all, or if he does, in just fleeting glimpses. He was only 4 when the gang broke up and who remembers much from when they are four anyway? He may not even have real memories so much as heard stories and built memories in his head. He might remember hearing the gunfights at Shady Belle and Lagras, but remembering Arthur taking him fishing one time? I doubt that as much as him hearing a story about how Arthur and Hosea were fishermen and took him fishing once and built up a memory.
