Pokémon (Not-So) Griefing Thread - Scarlet and Violet Released with 10 Million Copies in First 3 Days in Buggy States

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Registration said:
I disagree about your idea of "polluting the identity of the old games". Because that is just insincere.

The old games are badly constructed. That is a fact. Even my favorite ones have flaws that are improved in later games and even their third games. One example of a bad mechanic is HM moves. Those are and will always be terrible, the function is to work as a roadblock to the player but ends up being as a bothersome anchor to your own team building decision.

The moment a hack removes it ferom the game by whatever way, it is a straight up improvement, because now you have more options.
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I mean, I'm sorry if my taste and opinions about rom hacks feels insincere to you but those are my sincere feelings on the matter. Also HM are a mixed bag for me, I like the concept of using your own pokemon to explore the world but often the amount of them required and the moves themselves being bad. My ideal is there to be less than a handful and for them to be good moves, although I can see why you'd prefer the HM equivalents from newer generations.
I don't really seek ultimate freedom in games, and in that same vain, nor do I inherently value more options. Generally I prefer restrictions within reason and have to be creative and make do with the tools I've been given.
Registration said:
Other bad feature of gen 1: limited backpack and without a separation tabs. Those are straight up improvements in later games. The more you see, things that can be called QoL feature are just improving the game by altering its shitty framework.

One of the features I hate the most in the first gen and the remakes is the Pokedex. I have to capture pokémon not because I want to, I have to capture it because I would be locked of the rest of the game since there are aides that have itens locked under certain pokemon catch (not seen like posterior gens)

And when you see gen 5. With features built on the past games but straight up improvements one after another.
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I agree, about the back packs slots thing, but I also don't get why your bringing it up. Gen 1 doesn't really have any strong resource management element and none of the other games really developed on that possible idea, it's interesting I won't lie but also something I'm not really interested in. But I don't mind things being locked behind catching pokemon in the first Gen, it is about catching them all, although it could be made easier.
Registration said:
This idea of identity of the old games is bullshit in case of hacks, not remakes because in the end of the day. The official version is just a worse product than the altered version. And the fan's work have more effort in it to make it shine brighter.

By changing and altering the old games, you get a better game, not mattering the identity of it. Because the game isn't a piece of conceptual work of art. It is a product that had to make cuts and changes into what was possible at that time within their budget/time constraint.
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Eh, it's a prefrence thing. But still as somebody's first experince to gen 1 or the Kanto region something more vanilla is better imo. While it's primarily a game and a lot of people just use FRLG as a vehicle for something that either alters Kanto to the point I find it unrecognizable or an entirely new region, which I do think is better than the previous option. Changing something doesn't automatically make it better, I for one consider Megas a downgrade and don't like them in roms of previous gens or in offical products like the Let's Go games.
Registration said:
RGB had lots of cut pokemon and it was indeed supposed to have a female protagonist. A hack putting it back in with other features will make it a better end result.

My first Pokemon Black experience was the Drayano hack, just like my White 2 will also be the redux version in the future. I dont need to even know what GF intended to do with their games originally back in the 2012 with this game when there is a better option TODAY. a better game already exists at this moment.

"Ah but it isnt official, as originally intended, this and that".

The "official", original, whatever you want to say is just a void concept.

The biggest example of it being just a void concept is the BDSP remakes, that instead of using the platinum changes in the game, went with the original games. Which were just worse.

And the fact that GF already "fixes" their own games with a third version, having fans to do the same to improve the games already makes it fine.
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I mean yeah, my problem with BDSP is the same problem I have with FRLG, they're too faithful and end up not doing anything. But I don't get why're you bringing this up as this is either stuff I've complained about, in the same vain as it, or literally something I said I like. I.E Green being in gen 1 because she was an unimplemented beta concept and is something I think is in the spirit of the original games.
But I have to disagree about the design intent not being important, if you just ignore the design intent of the games I think that's missing the point of a pseudo-remake and doesn't make for a good introduction to the series for a newcomer. Besides it's important to understand the original intent of a product so you can see where it went wrong and make changes as needed in order to improve on it, but if you just end up porting everything haphazardly from future gen not understanding the intent you'll end up with a mess.
That's not to say everything that ports from future gens is bad, Radical Red is quite good even if it's not my cup of tea and I like Drayano's hacks even if I don't like every change he tends to make.
I have nothing against pseudo-remakes, but when it's all said and done I'd rather recognize my favorite pokemon as themselves and the regions I like as those respective regions. But that's just the flavor of pseudo-remake I prefer.
 
I like the pokemon from the first 3 gens best but they really did improve the battling mechanics over time. I don't think you could pay me to play a game from before the special split anymore
 
Coldsteel the Hedgehog said:
@Registration

Those changes are completely different from what is being discussed, though. Doing things like placing native pokemon in more routes, or making inventory management nicer is one thing-- what's different is completely revamping base mechanics in a way that the rest of the game is simply unable to account for. The physical/special split is a really good example of this; implemented blindly completely fucking destroys the balance of the campaign and ruins a lot of trainer teams that were designed with the pre-split stats in mind.

And like XL said, somethings feel alien even if they're not objectively bad. I don't care how empty Hoenn's sea routes are, putting palafin there will feel completely out of place and weird. The player's enjoyment being important is cool and something I do usually agree with, but romhacks are different than modding a game. They are a fanproject being made and presented to players as a complete product in and of itself, in which case yes, criticism of them and their designs is valid and warranted.
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So sea routes having tentacool is fine since it is from an early gen but if a hack does with a pokemon from later gen then it is weird? How is a tentacool any different from just a random fish pokemon? This sounds like bullshit.

"what's different is completely revamping base mechanics in a way that the rest of the game is simply unable to account for."

And here is the thing, the original games. DOESN'T DO THIS AT ALL. If you want to pick just a single pokémon and overlevel it, you can easily beat the game, there is nothing stopping the player. In FRLG there is an item called VS Seeker that allows you to rematch trainers. Lets say you want to buy a TM from the cassino without playing the coin game, so you spam the vs seeker, beats trainers, get more money, gets overleveled and get the TM.

What does the original game do to correct this? Literally nothing.

What does modern hack roms do to prevebt this: level caps mechanics, level scaling with your highest level, less experience with already overleveled pokemons and so on.

You guys want an experience that was never real, you talk like the original games have all these modern mechanics buy it straight up never existed before being hacked into it.

"You don't get to pick and choose what parts of a romhack you install."

Except we live in a world where it really is the case. Just an example of even in game the options already are more fullfiling than before.

Screenshot_20240927-221737-122.png


Most modern hacks just straight up ask you: what changes you want be it in game or the patch version that you want. Do you want a nuzlocke mode? Do you want a randomizer? Do you want reverse types? And so on.

"They are a fanproject being made and presented to players as a complete product in and of itself, in which case yes, criticism of them and their designs is valid and warranted.

Yes. just like I criticized Azure Platinum, but these criticisms serve a purpose, right? We live in an world where we can get an emerald seaglass 1.3 with fixes, new additions requested by players and the community, and these changes could be implemented in the rom by the creator. Pokemon Brown received updates 20 years later, a gbc game.

Now understanding this, did GF ever improved the same game with a something easily fixable like pokemon stats, locations and moves? Of course not. And if a fan does improve it. Why even bother with the inferior version at all?

@Lizard Machine Bugs you sound really indecisive, what the fuck do you really want? A remake that does the same shit or not? In no possible way RGB are better than FRLG. Why? Because they improved the game. And it is the same with DP in relation to BDSP. It is a remake that still fixes the problem of the original games, the difference between the two remakes, is that we have a third option in platinum case, that came after DP, so we have this to compare both DP to it and also BDSP.

So we have this remake called platinum that improves the base game. The original intent (DP) was fucking shit, and GF fixed later. Just like fans can fix games later with mods and hacks.

So let me ask you one thing: do you think the games are too slow? If you could play the games at 400% speed, would this go against their original intent because it wasn't made that way?
 
Let me showcase some examples:
See this battlescreen? Notice how the flying is green? This game alters the color to indicate how effective the move will be. Andnyou have different degrees of how effective it will be.

Screenshot_20240927-230637-072.png


Here, a normal ghost move will do nothing against this normal pokemon and it is indicated by the colors.
Screenshot_20240927-230938-183.png


In this other hack, they will showcase you the pokémon type as you press the battle button, but without any indication.
Screenshot_20240927-231348-927.png



The same goes for the dexnav featured in later games
Screenshot_20240919-191334-331.png


All these features never existed in the original games of gen 3.

So lets say a new pokemon played picked the game to play. What do you think it is the better approach for him to understand the gameplay. These indicators or just trying any move or having this table near him.

1727490054510.png

(And this is a modern type chart)

All these features never existed in the original games of gen 3 that were modified into much simpler and better gameplay features.


Every time I have to fight this fat fuck, I have no clue about which type it is: poison, fairy, rock, fossil, whatever the fuck it is.


1727490359536.png


And a New played will have no indication also in older games.

As for the "original intent" and how shitty it can be:

Trade evolutions.

Zero lore, no meaning at all and just cumbersome to do.

You catch an Abra, then you train it and when you give it away for other player for it to become alakazam. And if you want it back, then you have to trade it back (and we are talking about GB days, when you have to be there), if it was a GTS back in NDS days, you could get fucked and never see it again.

Jesus, what a retarded idea. Thank god hack roms changed it to be either: normal leveling it up, use the hold item to trade as a stone, use a new item to make a trade with yourself.

And this isn't even a case of exclusive to game X or Y. It is just a retarded decision.
 
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@Registration

I feel like you're missing my point, here, so I'll clarify.

1. It's not about new vs old, it's about thematic and design cohesion. What I would like to see would be to relocate and show off pokemon from the native regions in their own game to preserve that. Instead of adding palafin or barraskewda, why not show us relicanth? Chinchou, lantern -- Hoenn has so many water types that you could put in these routes before resorting to outside regions. Tentacool isn't okay because its old, it's okay because it is already a pokemon native to Hoenn. I like regions have specific dexes, playing within those dexes is part of what makes the experience unique. I think it is something worth preserving.

2. These patch options are not encompassing enough to change my stance. Nuzlocke mode and type reversal is completely different than things like altering gym leader teams, level curves, wild pokemon encounters, etc. They are customizeable experiences, but they are still intended to be that, an experience. This is okay! It just makes it different than, say, modding skyrim.

3. Regarding your other points, we're speaking past each other. As I've said multiple times, QoL changes like type indicators and HM removal are completely different from altering the core experience of a game. I'm not saying vanilla games are perfect. What I am saying is that the vanilla games intended to curate a specific experience and energy when playing them, and undue changes to that can have unintended consequences that ruin that experience and energy.

You are talking about these games from an efficiency viewpoint, and I am not. I don't care if the game doesn't stop me from overleveling because I don't do that, my enjoyment is not derived from minmaxing my way through the campaign. I have no idea why you are so insistent on it being some crippling flaw by Game Freak that the games, gasp, let you play them how you want to. Who fucking cares if the games let me overlevl? I just box the mon until they're not anymore. I don't need the game to have self control for me.
 
Registration said:
Trade evolutions.

Zero lore, no meaning at all and just cumbersome to do.
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Trade evolutions could easily be labeled the gimmick of Gen I, considering the very idea of trading was novel at the time. They were done to both facilitate the necessity of trading, because Game Freak never assumed people would buy an entire second GameBoy for this game, and to add depth to the mechanic.
 
"thematic and design cohesion"

Pokemon ecology isn't well defined enough for it to be relevant for the game purpose. What makes you think that Chinchou is native from Johto other than it was first available in Johto game? Does the Pokedex entries make statements about the origin of Chinchou? No. If the choice can go from a generation from before, why not do a later? A gen 7 fish will be stopped by a magical barrier in the ses that doesn't allow it to traverse into hoenn? There is no human bringing in pokemon? No unidentified species

There isn't cohesion at all. The stantler had an evolution in the Legend Arceus game that was years before johto. Yet it wasn't present in GSC games. Does it break the thematic and design cohesion to insert it in a previous game when the only reason to not, is that it simply didn't existed back then? If a hack dev creates all unova regional variants of pokemon and insert in a hoenn game, how is it any different from GF to do the exactly the same? Your argument is built on something as flimsy.

If you create a hack that has original region, original story, original pokémon but it is in a gen 3 engine with megas, gigantamax and whatever features they want, your argument evaporates.

"completely different from altering the core experience of a game. "

Dude. The battles are the most important part of the game and where you spent the most active part as a player. Any alteration that affects it slightly is altering the core experience of the game. If I dont have to have a HM slave in my team, this changes the whole battle and my choice as a player. If I know which move to use against an enemy, this alters the way to play the game drastically, because it removes factors like guesses and random choices.

If you think for a second that these changes are just QoL improvements and it is at the same level to not activate the running shoes by press B, you are literally insane.

"intended to curate a specific experience and energy when playing them, and undue changes to that can have unintended consequences that ruin that experience and energy."

And how can you say that it is a good thing? How many experiences the devs intended for you to have? 1, 2, 3 or 4? How many times you play the same game until you get bored? Lets use pokemon Crystal Clear as an example. 8 gyms that you can pick the order and the game scale all the undefeated gyms for you as you go? How many possibilities there are? How many pokemon can you use in different contexts by just altering the order in the same game? First Gym and you are fighting claire. You last will be bugsy. The combinations of it. "Ah but the story gets altered by playing this hack" do you play pokemon for the story?

We aren't talking about first impressions of the game here, until someone learn the existence of hacks and altered roms, they are probably someone who played before and understand what they are looking for.

In johto games, the first wild pokémon in the route after the Claire 8 gym battle is lvl 22. This is the supposed "specific experience and energy" curated and cared by gamefreak devs? Fuck off it is.

I am not talking about making pokémon another game that it isn't. We are not making it like ranger or mystery dungeon. We are talking about taking already existing features and improving something that lacks it.

So lets make it clear: you accept whatever slop gamefreak delivered twenty years ago, and will defend it in the >supposed< intent idea of design and consistency (lol) that in early gens crawled at the mud, then it reached a peak around gen 5-6, then it fell off for other reasons not related to the most important part of the game (battle, that is clearly better than early gens)

Just answer me this: what is the best pokemon game you ever played. Not your favorite nor your first, it can be a hacked rom or a fan game in rpg maker. What is it?

This isn't about efficiency, it is about being a better game. Azure Platinum was a game that I criticezed that had many QoL features and efficient to the point where there was zero grinding.

McMitch said:
Trade evolutions could easily be labeled the gimmick of Gen I, considering the very idea of trading was novel at the time. They were done to both facilitate the necessity of trading, because Game Freak never assumed people would buy an entire second GameBoy for this game, and to add depth to the mechanic.
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You could suppose it is, the problem is that unlike other better gimmicks, this one is still in the game.

I dunno how it works in other spinoff games like ranger or go, how do evolve pokemon that uses trade in their original games as an evolution mechanic.
 
I was entering this discussion under the impression you were here to talk about a fun game we both enjoy, but if you're going to have an autistic freakout over every thing I say, there's not much reason to continue this discussion. Sorry I like the same games you like, I guess? For the record, imo the best games in the franchise are Explorers of Sky and Black/White. My favorite's Platinum, though. Best hack was one I made myself for HGSS years ago.

In other news, I recently started putzing around with a romhack of my own for one of the mystery dungeon games. It's actually a pretty nice game to work with thanks to all the tools they have available nowadays, but mostly I've been working on design documents. It's actually a lot harder to pick good starters than you'd think considering how batshit awful most movepools are for first stage pokemon. Anyone have any left-field picks they'd think would work well? Not opposed to implimenting pokemon from future gens.
 
Registration said:
Lizard Machine Bugs you sound really indecisive, what the fuck do you really want? A remake that does the same shit or not? In no possible way RGB are better than FRLG. Why? Because they improved the game. And it is the same with DP in relation to BDSP. It is a remake that still fixes the problem of the original games, the difference between the two remakes, is that we have a third option in platinum case, that came after DP, so we have this to compare both DP to it and also BDSP.

So we have this remake called platinum that improves the base game. The original intent (DP) was fucking shit, and GF fixed later. Just like fans can fix games later with mods and hacks.

So let me ask you one thing: do you think the games are too slow? If you could play the games at 400% speed, would this go against their original intent because it wasn't made that way?
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At no point did I claim RGBY was better than FRLG, I have problems with both, but I was highlighting my problems with FRLG as a remake. For the purest experince and as a first introduction to the series I think QoL vanilla plus style Rom Hacks are best. While Pseudo-remake and the actual remakes have the unenviable position of adapting an older game and improving on it, and in that I feel that there's a very real ability for the region/game to lose it's identity or to feel watered down. FRLG added the female trainer, abilities, infinite backpack space...etc But's it's mostly a 1:1 Kanto remake with no new content that doesn't manage to improve upon the originals in any meaningful way like BDSP. The best teams in RGBY are still mostly the same in FRLG, and I think that could be improved. A good remake improves upon the original meaningfully while keeping it's identity intact, while a bad one either does nothing at all or isn't recognizable as the thing it's remaking.
QoL features, better wild encounters, more content, and updating the events in the story are all things which I think fit this criteria, while adding newer gen gimmicks is contrary to it since I feel like newer gen gimmicks water down the identity of the older games.
Also I don't care about the fact that the player can spam the versus seeker, the versus seeker is a good mechanic as it allows efficient and fast leveling and whether the player wants to over level or not is entirely on them. Level caps are a nice option though and I do like to see it, definitely falls into the QoL category. The other things you listed I also think fall into QoL, but there's a fundamental difference between QoL features and adding regional gimmicks from future gens alongside future gen pokemon.

And while I emulate, I don't play the games at 400% speed, emulating any game at 400% speed is just going to ruin the experience for yourself and turn it purely into a test of mechanical skill while not being able to enjoy the feel or atmosphere of the game because it's at fucking 400% speed. But yeah Platinum's battle system is slow it could be faster and I would prefer it that way, but 400% is insane.
 
Archeops said:
As far as Max Raids are concerned I’m liking them to a certain extent. 1-Star raids are easy to solo with the Pokémon the first event of the MAX Out season gave you while the Psychic Spectacular’s 3-Star Beldum raids were solo-able given some preparation (TL;DR farm Charmander Max Raids, level them up, and evolve ‘em into Charizards). The lack of Gigantamax raids is understandable considering that the games didn't properly introduce them until around the Motostoke City Gym and they're only available in "purple beam" 5-Star raids (which only pop up on the field after ) in SWSH.
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They made Kanto 1s harder for some reason, and people aren't happy about it. I can understand making them a little challenging, but they gotta make the rewards worth it. I helped someone with a 3* Beldum fight, and the most you'll get out of it is 4 rare candies and maybe an xl candy if you're super lucky. I personally don't think it's worth the time and investment, and I refuse to make 3 Gengars because they can't implement Dynmax and Gigamax on the Gengars we've caught. Next month's events look pretty promising, and I can't wait to get Giratina and Darkrai (I got back into the game last February). The Mega Raid Day should be interesting and hopefully fun.

I think they fixed the raids where the spam isn't insane. Zacian and Gardevoir are much easier to handle than Kyogre, Houndoom, and Groudon.
 
@Lizard Machine Bugs
You are just straight up indecisive.

Every single change in the game made in a hack changes the gameplay in one way or a another.

This idea of "purest experience" is a falsehood for two clear reasons:
GF themselves already doesnt enforce that, since Kanto was remade 3 times already with changes in the gameplay that alters the "pure experience".

A hacked version no matter the change made, be it in mechanics or location, movepool, leveling system already alters the game for it not to be a pure experience. Yellow did it by making pikachu not able to evolve and couldn't be removed from parties, FRLG did it by using abilities and other held itens. And lets go already changed the game.

These in the official games, any hack would do the a slight change in gameplay and the purest experience is gone already. It isn't even a matter of bringing in megas or even a foreign pokemon. The game is already changed and that is fine. But claiming that this change is fine but this isn't while holding this idea of "pure experience" is just straight up bullshit. Because it isn't fucking real, be it in official remakes or hacked games.

In gen 1 (RGB), Pinsir doesn't have a single bug move. And the game already has the bonus given to the same type as the pokémon. If you add a bug move to his set, the gameplay is already improved and better. This isn't even a matter of the game being bugged, it is a matter of the game not being made well when some types are clearly stronger and have stronger moves than others. Its not balanced at all. It is straight up a bad game.

Wanting your new player to play a bad game because of of the pure experience excuse is already an idiotic thing, even more when most of the times it will not even be on the original hardware.

Players knows this, devs know it, and this apply to any old game being released in new platforms, how many flashback features did we get so we can try again the mistakes? How many games dropped the point system for other types of measuring performance?

To try to even offer this experience to a new player for him to have a worse experience is completely idiotic.

It is the same that if you want own a new cup, instead of buying a glass one, is to offer a clay cup broken and dirty and smugly claim: "this is the pure water drinking experience". And if you fill the leaks of the shitty cup with an artificial lglue, now it is too different, but if you mash leaves enough and fill in, it is still supposedly pure.

"A good remake improves upon the original meaningfully while keeping it's identity intact, while a bad one either does nothing at all or isn't recognizable as the thing it's remaking."

What you want is a remaster then.

Let me ask you this: what is the identity of gen 1? Is the map, npcs, gameplay, limited options, bugs, shitty sprites?

Another example: you cant evolve your golbat into crobat until you get the National dex in FRLG, this choice is a good one or not?

"And while I emulate, I don't play the games at 400% speed, emulating any game at 400% speed is just going to ruin the experience for yourself and turn it purely into a test of mechanical skill while not being able to enjoy the feel or atmosphere of the game because it's at fucking 400% speed. But yeah Platinum's battle system is slow it could be faster and I would prefer it that way, but 400% is insane."

You are a clown. How many games allows you to skip a cutscene? does this ruins the experience? Pokemon having options to disable the attack animation is "ruining the atmosphere"? Get the Fuck out here. So people complaining about modern games stopping you at anymore are wrong because that is the feel and afmosphere of the game


Mainline pokémon games are turn battle rpg, you literally lose nothing about it if you speed in 400% because the imput of the game in your turn will wait regardless of how many times it takes. It isn't an action game where it is in real time and if you play at faster speed, any action game, you would be a better player if you have better coordination and the very few cases in pokémon games where timing is key and playing at normal speed is like making poffins or fishing or even dancing.

The mainline games doesn't offer any RTM that could change your gameplay if your imputs were faster.

Legend arceus, ranger and mystery dungeon does it, not the RPG in turns that the mainline games are.
 
Ya'll need to step away from the RomHacks. Maybe touch some actual grass.

What is it with series designed for children bringing out this level of autism in people? It's almost impressive how it happens with almost every franchise...
 
Leaf Wage Slave Jr said:
Ya'll need to step away from the RomHacks. Maybe touch some actual grass.

What is it with series designed for children bringing out this level of autism in people? It's almost impressive how it happens with almost every franchise...
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True.
Life is too short, don't stress every day.
Can we talk about Wally and his iron lung again? That was funny.
 
Rose_Twilight_Wings.png
>his plan was to harness the power of an ancient alien that makes Pokémon grow larger, claiming it's for the good of everyone
>was absolutely insistent beyond reason that it must be done right now!!!, no matter what it costs
>shrugs off any claims that the only problems it would solve are generations away and that there's no pressing need for it
>defeated, arrested, and humiliated, becomes a laughingstock in the fandom for making no sense and freaking out over nothing
...
...
>next new game declares that Pokémon shrink (opposite of grow), every fanfic writer and non-japanese lore autist has a meltdown, in some circles it becomes briefly impossible to discuss anything else
He knew.
He was only trying to save you.
You should've listened.
 
Hiphopopotamus said:
I just want some difficulty increase romhacks, but anytime I find them the author has also changed pokemon's typing, abilities, learnset etc.
Really wish BW2 weren't the only games with a "hard" mode.
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I don't mind it if it's done right, like BlazeBlack and Renegade Platinum. Even those have their faults but at least they stick to the established types. But when a hack tries something new like "sound" as a type or rearranging weaknesses (ex: Pokemon Brown has poison weak to fire) it's annoying.
 
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