MMA & UFC General - Featuring Bellator MMA & Rizin Fighting Federation

[Sheriff of CWCville]

Anderson became so complacent because he's used to people being the aggressor in his fights, when you break down his performances against people like Diaz/Bisping/Weidman/Brunson. that he always was on the retreat with counter attacks and would only remain active on the last minute of each round to try to win the judges favour. When anderson started losing, it wasn't because of a lack of skill but when you think about it, all his opponents studied him and he never changed his game plan which was why he started losing more frequently. Add that with slower reaction time because age and you got a deadly combination for a fighter who relies on a defensive tactic being unable to defend himself.

I see what you’re getting at, and i think a lot also had to do with people respecting Anderson less after the wiedman fights. That and Anderson probably becoming skeptical of his own abilities is a terrible combination for a fighter whose strategy is to invite exchanges to counter. That, Father Time, perhaps not being able to use PEDs that he had access to previously (speculative), Andy’s time finally came. He had a better run than almost everyone else in the sport

 

[Violent Ken Apologist]

I'm just a fan and get rocked too easily to imagine ever fighting seriously so just take me at arm's length here but Anderson could've done great in an eastern promotion after beating Chris 1. He'd have his leg and the roids would've kept his youth

 

[Slimy Time]

I'm just a fan and get rocked too easily to imagine ever fighting seriously so just take me at arm's length here but Anderson could've done great in an eastern promotion after beating Chris 1. He'd have his leg and the roids would've kept his youth

Probably. Thing is peoples figured him out and combined with time catching up to him.

The other fighter that's been interesting to watch decline for me has been Jose Aldo. People forget how fucking scary he was because he got slept by McGregor in seconds. This guy was unbeaten for 10 years, considered the featherweight Goat. One of the most burst explosive fighters ever. Yet now he's constantly losing and is 33, not in his 40s.

Combination of being humiliated by McGregor and people figuring him out. Up the pace and make him work, and he has difficulty. He's so explosive that he struggles with "doing work" and being tired out. Holloway figured it out with an upped pace and being a phenomenal striker, Volkanovski figured it out by cage clinching him to a win, seems so did everyone at Bantamweight.

Be interested to see him resurge after a downward spiral.

Late Edit: Well, looks like he's still got it with his recent performance. Got that champion mindset to throw a curveball and just turn the 3rd round into a jiujitsu clinic after 2 rounds of stand and bang.

 

[Violent Ken Apologist]

Probably. Thing is peoples figured him out and combined with time catching up to him.

The other fighter that's been interesting to watch decline for me has been Jose Aldo. People forget how fucking scary he was because he got slept by McGregor in seconds. This guy was unbeaten for 10 years, considered the featherweight Goat. One of the most burst explosive fighters ever. Yet now he's constantly losing and is 33, not in his 40s.

Combination of being humiliated by McGregor and people figuring him out. Up the pace and make him work, and he has difficulty. He's so explosive that he struggles with "doing work" and being tired out. Holloway figured it out with an upped pace and being a phenomenal striker, Volkanovski figured it out by cage clinching him to a win, seems so did everyone at Bantamweight.

Be interested to see him resurge after a downward spiral.

It's not an old man's game at all. I mostly am just fixated on Silva because he's got me through some bad times, just watching him blew my mind in the day. The point where it appeared to me technique would never be able to outweigh age was watching Faber literally move around like it's Tekken and as if his train had too much steam in it doing everything perfectly only to get slept by one or two shots because he's 40. MMA is underappreciated as a spectator's venture, but it's part of why going full tilt as a martial artist is something I'd never recommend someone do and why I decided early on in life it's not my thing. Huge risks to your mental and physical well being.

The risks are huge. But damn... Breaks my heart seeing Silva consider this the only thing that defines him and not being allowed or able to continue. Poor guy, you know?

 

[Sheriff of CWCville]

Can’t believe Tony is kill, as I’m pretty sure this marks the end of #CSO

Olivera has surpassed any expectations I had for him tho, always knew he had potential but thought those ko losses and a suspect chin would always hold him back. They should feed him Chandler imo

 

[Slimy Time]

Can’t believe Tony is kill, as I’m pretty sure this marks the end of #CSO

Olivera has surpassed any expectations I had for him tho, always knew he had potential but thought those ko losses and a suspect chin would always hold him back. They should feed him Chandler imo

Oliviera killed all hopes for a eventual Tony-Khabib return match. Will point out that Tony went full retard after the Gaethje fight and basically sacked his entire training team, including Eddie Bravo. You would think if you are going to fight the guy with a) a black belt in BJJ and b) the most submission wins in UFC history you would bring in your BJJ coach. IDK what Tony was doing other than being weird, but not having full training staff is a shit idea. He is a tough bastard though. Oliviera caught him in a clean armbar, then went over the top to increase pressure/snap arm and he didn't tap.

That Davison vs Moreno fight. That's up there for fight of the year next to the Weili-Joanna fight. Moreno is tough as nails getting up and fighting to a draw with that kick to the balls and both were great considering they fought just 3 weeks ago (admittedly they stomped their opponents). They should definitely run it back. Who would have thought that the men flyweight division would be the one to put out the best fights. Few years ago the Flyweight division was in danger of being cut, now its churning out fantastic fights.

 

[naffatune]

The Tony "era" is pretty much done, but what's worse than this is that, if you have at least a decent understanding of tactics in combat sports, this was bound to happen at some point. Tony was never known for his sharp boxing; his punches were sloppy and his defense was simply lacking. He was never one to use his insane reach to its full potential because he preferred to close distance and throw leg kicks and fancy elbows. Half of his standup defense relied on his chin, and if you watched his fights versus Vannata, Barboza, Pettis, or Gaethje, you would know this.

The fall of Tony emphasizes the importance of sharpening your striking fundamentals. Striking (especially boxing) is the most important aspect of martial arts (at least to me). Fights start standing up, and striking exchanges are fast, demanding full attention and good defensive habits. After all, it may only take one well timed punch or combination to put your lights out.

The importance of striking leads me to say also that the reason why Khabib was so dominant wasn't just because of his wrestling, but because his standup was good enough to allow his wrestling to manifest itself in the cage, even if his standup was quite rudimentary (i.e. relied almost exclusively on pulling and ducking to dodge punches, as well as a snappy jab to distract his opponents). His chin was good too, and that's why I also think it was reasonable for him to retire in his prime to avoid getting exposed for his reliance on it.

 

[Violent Ken Apologist]

The Tony "era" is pretty much done, but what's worse than this is that, if you have at least a decent understanding of tactics in combat sports, this was bound to happen at some point. Tony was never known for his sharp boxing; his punches were sloppy and his defense was simply lacking. He was never one to use his insane reach to its full potential because he preferred to close distance and throw leg kicks and fancy elbows. Half of his standup defense relied on his chin, and if you watched his fights versus Vannata, Barboza, Pettis, or Gaethje, you would know this.

The fall of Tony emphasizes the importance of sharpening your striking fundamentals. Striking (especially boxing) is the most important aspect of martial arts (at least to me). Fights start standing up, and striking exchanges are fast, demanding full attention and good defensive habits. After all, it may only take one well timed punch or combination to put your lights out.

The importance of striking leads me to say also that the reason why Khabib was so dominant wasn't just because of his wrestling, but because his standup was good enough to allow his wrestling to manifest itself in the cage, even if his standup was quite rudimentary (i.e. relied almost exclusively on pulling and ducking to dodge punches, as well as a snappy jab to distract his opponents). His chin was good too, and that's why I also think it was reasonable for him to retire in his prime to avoid getting exposed for his reliance on it.

Dutch Kickboxing is so underrated. Produces utter stand up monsters.

 

[naffatune]

That's exactly what I picture a good, practical standup fighter to be. For those of you who don't know what Dutch kickboxing is, it's a style of kickboxing where a fighter combines solid boxing skills with sharp low-kicks.

What is unfortunate is that I don't see a great deal of fighters who are good at boxing and using low-kicks at the same time. So far I have only seen Holloway, Poirier, Fiziev, Gaethje, Volkanovski, Aldo, Riddell, and Alex Hernandez come close to emulating this style of fighting.

If you want to know what my standards on what good Dutch kickboxing is, I recommend watching Joseph Valtellini vs. Francois Ambang as reference. Tyjani Beztati is a beast as well in the Dutch kickboxing department, making him my #1 favorite fighter outside the UFC. All of the names I just listed are part of the GLORY Kickboxing promotion, so give their channel a watch.

 

[Violent Ken Apologist]

That's exactly what I picture a good, practical standup fighter to be. For those of you who don't know what Dutch kickboxing is, it's a style of kickboxing where a fighter combines solid boxing skills with sharp low-kicks.

What is unfortunate is that I don't see a great deal of fighters who are good at boxing and using low-kicks at the same time. So far I have only seen Holloway, Poirier, Fiziev, Gaethje, Volkanovski, Aldo, Riddell, and Alex Hernandez come close to emulating this style of fighting.

If you want to know what my standards on what good Dutch kickboxing is, I recommend watching Joseph Valtellini vs. Francois Ambang as reference. Tyjani Beztati is a beast as well in the Dutch kickboxing department, making him my #1 favorite fighter outside the UFC. All of the names I just listed are part of the GLORY Kickboxing promotion, so give their channel a watch.

View attachment 1808297

Or you could do the complete fucking opposite like Israel and just abuse your range and fight like a complete mong. He's one of the most technically accomplished strikers but it lacks the scramble and hard KO potential which characterizes the dutch method.

In an actual fight where it's not about points defense is just an offensive tool. You can chop someone down like a tree where it's contextually appropriate but I promise you that on the street, that fight with Yoel could've ended in pain for Izzy (or even Yoel potentially, too, it wasn't clear cut.) after a good 10 more minutes of them mincing trades in stand up

I get pissed every time I watch that fight.

edit: ramon dekkerz was sick btw. What about Cosmo? That brazilian MT guy. He isn't a DK but he has ridiculous stand up and generally just competes in MT, A total monster and OHKO'd Northcutt's scrubby anus. He's at least got good stand up, remember MT and boxing have a degree of crossover too

 

[Slimy Time]

The importance of striking leads me to say also that the reason why Khabib was so dominant wasn't just because of his wrestling, but because his standup was good enough to allow his wrestling to manifest itself in the cage, even if his standup was quite rudimentary (i.e. relied almost exclusively on pulling and ducking to dodge punches, as well as a snappy jab to distract his opponents). His chin was good too, and that's why I also think it was reasonable for him to retire in his prime to avoid getting exposed for his reliance on it.

People sleep on his standup. He clipped Conor and dropped him and outpointed Al Iaquinta for 2 to 3 rounds on the feet. His defensive standup is on point, sharp jab and pulling to avoid getting hit. His offense was pure pressure to get the opponent to the cage and allow him to shoot. Once he had one round of domination on the ground, it then allowed Khabib to open up his striking as well because his opponents were so worried of him shooting in for the takedown that he could strike well on the feet. The Iaquinta fight is definitely something of an oddity for Khabib because he spends over half the fight just using Al's face as jab practice instead of shooting in. He stood with a guy who want to strike and because his defensive standup was on point, he won the UD.

Or you could do the complete fucking opposite like Israel and just abuse your range and fight like a complete mong. He's one of the most technically accomplished strikers but it lacks the scramble and hard KO potential which characterizes the dutch method.

In an actual fight where it's not about points defense is just an offensive tool. You can chop someone down like a tree where it's contextually appropriate but I promise you that on the street, that fight with Yoel could've ended in pain for Izzy (or even Yoel potentially, too, it wasn't clear cut.) after a good 10 more minutes of them mincing trades in stand up

I get pissed every time I watch that fight.

edit: ramon dekkerz was sick btw. What about Cosmo? That brazilian MT guy. He isn't a DK but he has ridiculous stand up and generally just competes in MT, A total monster and OHKO'd Northcutt's scrubby anus. He's at least got good stand up, remember MT and boxing have a degree of crossover too

I loved how Izzy tried to play up his leg kicks in the Romero fight. Oh, he won't be able to walk tomorrow, he will be on crutches etc. Cut to a video the next day of Yoel skipping/jogging with no problem. He also just got his purple belt, so he's going around saying he hopes people take him down so he can do stuff to them. For leg kicks though, Gaethje and Aldo are pretty good to watch. Still watch that Aldo-Faber fight once in a while. Pure grit and adrenalin kept Faber standing up, once that dump kicked in post match he needed to be taken out on a stretcher.

 

[Violent Ken Apologist]

People sleep on his standup. He clipped Conor and dropped him and outpointed Al Iaquinta for 2 to 3 rounds on the feet. His defensive standup is on point, sharp jab and pulling to avoid getting hit. His offense was pure pressure to get the opponent to the cage and allow him to shoot. Once he had one round of domination on the ground, it then allowed Khabib to open up his striking as well because his opponents were so worried of him shooting in for the takedown that he could strike well on the feet. The Iaquinta fight is definitely something of an oddity for Khabib because he spends over half the fight just using Al's face as jab practice instead of shooting in. He stood with a guy who want to strike and because his defensive standup was on point, he won the UD.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wbf_xuU7QaU
I loved how Izzy tried to play up his leg kicks in the Romero fight. Oh, he won't be able to walk tomorrow, he will be on crutches etc. Cut to a video the next day of Yoel skipping/jogging with no problem. He also just got his purple belt, so he's going around saying he hopes people take him down so he can do stuff to them. For leg kicks though, Gaethje and Aldo are pretty good to watch. Still watch that Aldo-Faber fight once in a while. Pure grit and adrenalin kept Faber standing up, once that dump kicked in post match he needed to be taken out on a stretcher.

They should just do extra rounds for fights like that. The condition they were respectively both in was not technical decision material, neither were in any immediate danger.

 

[Sheriff of CWCville]

That's exactly what I picture a good, practical standup fighter to be. For those of you who don't know what Dutch kickboxing is, it's a style of kickboxing where a fighter combines solid boxing skills with sharp low-kicks.

What is unfortunate is that I don't see a great deal of fighters who are good at boxing and using low-kicks at the same time. So far I have only seen Holloway, Poirier, Fiziev, Gaethje, Volkanovski, Aldo, Riddell, and Alex Hernandez come close to emulating this style of fighting.

If you want to know what my standards on what good Dutch kickboxing is, I recommend watching Joseph Valtellini vs. Francois Ambang as reference. Tyjani Beztati is a beast as well in the Dutch kickboxing department, making him my #1 favorite fighter outside the UFC. All of the names I just listed are part of the GLORY Kickboxing promotion, so give their channel a watch.

View attachment 1808297

To make a generalized statement, it is almost always going to be beneficial for a striker to consider chaining low kicks within combinations (preferably the penultimate strike of the sequence) and to cap them off. Being that this means there are now three levels of attacks to defend, there is no reason to not include them in a striking arsenal other than being actually physical incapable of performing them or if they lead to arduous or risky grappling exchanges (for whatever reason) that must be avoided. Not to be redundant but just statistically speaking there is nothing but advantages to becoming better at striking in this way. It just is a matter of consciously incorporating them and not being drawn into other peoples striking games (ie experience)

 

[King's Gambit Accepted]

Oliviera killed all hopes for a eventual Tony-Khabib return match. Will point out that Tony went full retard after the Gaethje fight and basically sacked his entire training team, including Eddie Bravo. You would think if you are going to fight the guy with a) a black belt in BJJ and b) the most submission wins in UFC history you would bring in your BJJ coach. IDK what Tony was doing other than being weird, but not having full training staff is a shit idea. He is a tough bastard though. Oliviera caught him in a clean armbar, then went over the top to increase pressure/snap arm and he didn't tap.

That Davison vs Moreno fight. That's up there for fight of the year next to the Weili-Joanna fight. Moreno is tough as nails getting up and fighting to a draw with that kick to the balls and both were great considering they fought just 3 weeks ago (admittedly they stomped their opponents). They should definitely run it back. Who would have thought that the men flyweight division would be the one to put out the best fights. Few years ago the Flyweight division was in danger of being cut, now its churning out fantastic fights.

Tony shouldn't have fired Eddie Bravo but his corner really failed him during the Gaethje fight. They should have thrown in the towel after the 4th round, maybe earlier. They had no real advice or strategy to help him in between rounds (suggesting he do an imanari roll?). There was no need for Tony to take that much damage. His corner is supposed to look out for his wellbeing, and they failed.

 

[Slimy Time]

Tony shouldn't have fired Eddie Bravo but his corner really failed him during the Gaethje fight. They should have thrown in the towel after the 4th round, maybe earlier. They had no real advice or strategy to help him in between rounds (suggesting he do an imanari roll?). There was no need for Tony to take that much damage. His corner is supposed to look out for his wellbeing, and they failed.

"Throw some sand". Good advice...

 

[Violent Ken Apologist]

That's exactly what I picture a good, practical standup fighter to be. For those of you who don't know what Dutch kickboxing is, it's a style of kickboxing where a fighter combines solid boxing skills with sharp low-kicks.

What is unfortunate is that I don't see a great deal of fighters who are good at boxing and using low-kicks at the same time. So far I have only seen Holloway, Poirier, Fiziev, Gaethje, Volkanovski, Aldo, Riddell, and Alex Hernandez come close to emulating this style of fighting.

If you want to know what my standards on what good Dutch kickboxing is, I recommend watching Joseph Valtellini vs. Francois Ambang as reference. Tyjani Beztati is a beast as well in the Dutch kickboxing department, making him my #1 favorite fighter outside the UFC. All of the names I just listed are part of the GLORY Kickboxing promotion, so give their channel a watch.

View attachment 1808297

yo, i had a question specifically for you

You didn't mention Alistair. You don't think he's a good dutch kickboxer? His entire background is built on it

 

[naffatune]

yo, i had a question specifically for you

You didn't mention Alistair. You don't think he's a good dutch kickboxer? His entire background is built on it

Although I do not deny that Reem has a good deal of experience as a kickboxer, I did not include him simply because he suffers from the same sloppiness that most heavyweights have when it comes to offense. While I don't deny that he has power, speed is a much more important factor for me when determining who is a good striker because fast techniques deter proper timing from the opponent (e.g. if I throw a fast jab, the window of opportunity to exploit the opening to my chin with an overhand right is much shorter since fast jabs have fast retraction)

Saying this, I would like to clarify also that when I say "Dutch kickboxing", I am using it as a blanket term for fighters who have excellent boxing and excellent low kicks, not Dutch kickboxing as it is in a strictly traditional sense. In fact, I would go as far as to say that traditional Dutch kickboxers would not be effective as MMA fighters due to their constant reliance on the high guard (e.g. Holzken and Dekkers)

To make things more specific, a perfect striker to me is not a Dutch kickboxer in the traditional sense, but rather, an aggressive counter-boxer with diverse combinations, set-ups, traps, and defensive techniques as well as sharp low kicks as a way to shut down their opponent's movement, allowing for more effective pressure. Picture someone like Canelo Alvarez whipping low kicks, and you will get what I mean.

 

[Violent Ken Apologist]

Although I do not deny that Reem has a good deal of experience as a kickboxer, I did not include him simply because he suffers from the same sloppiness that most heavyweights have when it comes to offense. While I don't deny that he has power, speed is a much more important factor for me when determining who is a good striker because fast techniques deter proper timing from the opponent (e.g. if I throw a fast jab, the window of opportunity to exploit the opening to my chin with an overhand right is much shorter since fast jabs have fast retraction)

Saying this, I would like to clarify also that when I say "Dutch kickboxing", I am using it as a blanket term for fighters who have excellent boxing and excellent low kicks, not Dutch kickboxing as it is in a strictly traditional sense. In fact, I would go as far as to say that traditional Dutch kickboxers would not be effective as MMA fighters due to their constant reliance on the high guard (e.g. Holzken and Dekkers)

To make things more specific, a perfect striker to me is not a Dutch kickboxer in the traditional sense, but rather, an aggressive counter-boxer with diverse combinations, set-ups, traps, and defensive techniques as well as sharp low kicks as a way to shut down their opponent's movement, allowing for more effective pressure. Picture someone like Canelo Alvarez whipping low kicks, and you will get what I mean.

Would you say a big deal of that is just due to him being naturally big? And when you mean boxing do you mean strictly within the context of MMA or do you think a traditional boxer with their high caliber athleticism and razor sharp technique would transfer to MMA well with some solid kicking, tdd and defensive jits?

 

[naffatune]

Traditional boxing can (and usually does) translate itself into MMA, because, why shouldn't it? In boxing, you punch. In MMA, you punch.

Of course, I can't just leave it there. The only adjustment you would really need to make as a traditional boxer going into MMA includes using your head movement more frequently (4 ounce gloves can't shield you) and maintaining a square stance to brace for leg kicks. Other than that, all the punching, defense, and footwork you learned in traditional boxing has great carryover into MMA.

Also, in the heavyweight division, I do acknowledge that sloppiness does stem from size, but in Reem's case, his weight comes mostly from muscle and not fat, so a lack of technique on his part could be the main issue.

Even if Reem did have more fat, he could still punch faster, since guys like Stipe and Walt Harris can lay fast offense despite their size. Overeem just doesn't seem to have this, perhaps because the sport of kickboxing doesn't emphasize good punching habits as much as boxing would, or perhaps because of knowledge decay since he's been away from kickboxing for a long time. I find it kind of surprising that he's relying on wrestling and clinching more nowadays than pure striking (watch his fights with Sakai, Harris, and Rozenstruik for reference)

 

[Violent Ken Apologist]

Traditional boxing can (and usually does) translate itself into MMA, because, why shouldn't it? In boxing, you punch. In MMA, you punch.

Of course, I can't just leave it there. The only adjustment you would really need to make as a traditional boxer going into MMA includes using your head movement more frequently (4 ounce gloves can't shield you) and maintaining a square stance to brace for leg kicks. Other than that, all the punching, defense, and footwork you learned in traditional boxing has great carryover into MMA.

Also, in the heavyweight division, I do acknowledge that sloppiness does stem from size, but in Reem's case, his weight comes mostly from muscle and not fat, so a lack of technique on his part could be the main issue.

Even if Reem did have more fat, he could still punch faster, since guys like Stipe and Walt Harris can lay fast offense despite their size. Overeem just doesn't seem to have this, perhaps because the sport of kickboxing doesn't emphasize good punching habits as much as boxing would, or perhaps because of knowledge decay since he's been away from kickboxing for a long time. I find it kind of surprising that he's relying on wrestling and clinching more nowadays than pure striking (watch his fights with Sakai, Harris, and Rozenstruik for reference)

Would you say even a subpar boxing athlete with adjustments would be an insane MMA practitioner due to the different standards in general?