MMA & UFC General - Featuring Bellator MMA & Rizin Fighting Federation

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>I just think it's funny when some rando steps up and thinks he knows better than guys risking their heads, preparing for months. Sometimes with millions on the line.

man, they could've been doing that in a timeline where bjj wasn't invented and still have lost to a nu-Gracie. Technique means more than all of that if it changes the game.
 
Boxing habits don't go away that easily, if top boxers transition to MMA in their prime they would still struggle HARD.

It's not boxing but you can see similar phenomena with kickboxers. Guys like Adesanya exists but they are pretty rare, what's more common is fighters often become less effective at striking because of the threat of takedown/cliche. Mirko got knocked out by Randleman/Gonzaga, Schilling got kocked out by Kato twice, Saki got knocked out by some random guy, McGregor got knocked down by Khabib (yes, I think McGregor is a very good KICKboxer) and the list goes on.

Theory crafting is fun but it not 90s anymore and you can just visit MMA gym (or Kyokusin/kick gym) to test your theory pretty easily, why don't you try.
 
I'll admit that I wasn't arguing for my position as well as I should've against Lemming. I was too caught up in explaining how "mixing up your strikes" work (which it actually does, it isn't "theory") without realizing that mixing things up makes just about anything work because you're giving guys different looks to make them freeze in uncertainty.

What I should've done was repeat what I said in the post that I made where I listed numbered reasons for why boxing is king.

Since I like rambling about this crap, I will try illustrating my point in another way.

Take two guys who are exactly the same in every single way (e.g. reach, height, weight, sense of timing, speed, chin, etc.) except fighting style. The boxer is going to win against all styles, and by "boxer", I mean the traditional guy whose hips are at a 45 degree angle and whose hands are up by his chin.

Why is boxing king? Simple.

A fast boxer can throw punches or angle off faster than a fast grappler can shoot for a takedown.

A fast boxer can throw punches or angle off faster than a fast kickboxer or nak muay can throw a kick.

Just refer to my numbered and highlighted post. I explain things concisely there.

KatanaSenshi said:
Boxing habits don't go away that easily, if top boxers transition to MMA in their prime they would still struggle HARD.

It's not boxing but you can see similar phenomena with kickboxers. Guys like Adesanya exists but they are pretty rare, what's more common is fighters often become less effective at striking because of the threat of takedown/cliche. Mirko got knocked out by Randleman/Gonzaga, Schilling got kocked out by Kato twice, Saki got knocked out by some random guy, McGregor got knocked down by Khabib (yes, I think McGregor is a very good KICKboxer) and the list goes on.

Theory crafting is fun but it not 90s anymore and you can just visit MMA gym (or Kyokusin/kick gym) to test your theory pretty easily, why don't you try.
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Stop bringing up old fighters. They're bad and they're not as good as the new guys.

I've paid attention to combat sports long enough to know that you can't just leg kick a guy or shoot a double on a guy who knows how to box.

I've seen UFC fights where all a guy had to do versus a leg kicker (or any "kicker", really) was throw a punch at the same time they threw a kick, and 9 times out of 10, the punch would land cleanly before the kick would. This kind of thing would happen to guys who threw knees too.

I've seen fights where guys shot in for doubles but all the boxer had to do was sharply angle off. Not only that, but a boxer always works behind the jab and will be smart enough to not let a wrestler get into range.

Even if you have a wrestling base in MMA, you need to work on your boxing holistically (i.e. not just punches; defense, footwork and rhythm too). An understanding of boxing will be the only thing keeping you conscious outside of your chin.

Wrestling can only manifest itself through boxing, and we see this time and again. Shoots for a double or single are set up by a variety of boxing techniques, including punches and even head movement (e.g. Khabib's duck looks like a shoot). Like I said before as well, boxing is what will keep a wrestler alive long enough to shoot because fights start standing up, and more importantly, they start in boxing range.
 
immovable object said:
I'll admit that I wasn't arguing for my position as well as I should've against Lemming. I was too caught up in explaining how "mixing up your strikes" work (which it actually does, it isn't "theory") without realizing that mixing things up makes just about anything work because you're giving guys different looks to make them freeze in uncertainty.

What I should've done was repeat what I said in the post that I made where I listed numbered reasons for why boxing is king.

Since I like rambling about this crap, I will try illustrating my point in another way.

Take two guys who are exactly the same in every single way (e.g. reach, height, weight, sense of timing, speed, chin, etc.) except fighting style. The boxer is going to win against all styles, and by "boxer", I mean the traditional guy whose hips are at a 45 degree angle and whose hands are up by his chin.

Why is boxing king? Simple.

A fast boxer can throw punches or angle off faster than a fast grappler can shoot for a takedown.

A fast boxer can throw punches or angle off faster than a fast kickboxer or nak muay can throw a kick.

Just refer to my numbered and highlighted post. I explain things concisely there.



Stop bringing up old fighters. They're bad and they're not as good as the new guys.

I've paid attention to combat sports long enough to know that you can't just leg kick a guy or shoot a double on a guy who knows how to box.

I've seen UFC fights where all a guy had to do versus a leg kicker (or any "kicker", really) was throw a punch at the same time they threw a kick, and 9 times out of 10, the punch would land cleanly before the kick would. This kind of thing would happen to guys who threw knees too.

I've seen fights where guys shot in for doubles but all the boxer had to do was sharply angle off. Not only that, but a boxer always works behind the jab and will be smart enough to not let a wrestler get into range.

Even if you have a wrestling base in MMA, you need to work on your boxing holistically (i.e. not just punches; defense, footwork and rhythm too). An understanding of boxing will be the only thing keeping you conscious outside of your chin.

Wrestling can only manifest itself through boxing, and we see this time and again. Shoots for a double or single are set up by a variety of boxing techniques, including punches and even head movement (e.g. Khabib's duck looks like a shoot). Like I said before as well, boxing is what will keep a wrestler alive long enough to shoot because fights start standing up, and more importantly, they start in boxing range.
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What do you think of this tactic? They mention a trad boxer wouldn't do this. Random thought, but yeah.
 
immovable object said:
Windmill overhands really only work if an opponent has their guard up. Most boxer see that coming and will duck or roll under it because it has lots of telegraph.
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Will this be another landmark in proficiency if an MMA fighter with pro boxing skills applies it to the rest of his game effectively? Like Gracies or Sakuraba or Silva and then later Jones...
 
Violent Ken Apologist said:
Will this be another landmark in proficiency if an MMA fighter with pro boxing skills applies it to the rest of his game effectively? Like Gracies or Sakuraba or Silva and then later Jones...
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Historically, yeah. MMA guys back then didn't have good head movement. Their footwork was limited and it didn't have same nuance as boxers at the time had.

That being said, I would like to say also that wrestling is still effective, and some wrestling techniques have carryover into boxing. The wide stance, square stance that wrestlers have is a good example, because it allows for good balance with head movement and punching. I saw a pretty interesting vid about the philly shell being good for take down defense because your lead arm can automatically act as an underhook when defending against takedowns.
 
immovable object said:
Historically, yeah. MMA guys back then didn't have good head movement. Their footwork was limited and it didn't have same nuance as boxers at the time had.

That being said, I would like to say also that wrestling is still effective, and some wrestling techniques have carryover into boxing. The wide stance, square stance that wrestlers have is a good example, because it allows for good balance with head movement and punching. I saw a pretty interesting vid about the philly shell being good for take down defense because your lead arm can automatically act as an underhook when defending against takedowns.
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What I'm asking about is the skill gap. So let's say Cody has lower level pro boxer skills due to his amateur career. If someone with his identical skillset but high level pro boxing skills on top of it, maybe even slightly weaker wrestling and shit, fought against him - would he dominate? Do you just need SOLID boxing or in the future do you feel the meta will encompass a need for bleeding edge boxing skills?
 
Violent Ken Apologist said:
What I'm asking about is the skill gap. So let's say Cody has lower level pro boxer skills due to his amateur career. If someone with his identical skillset but high level pro boxing skills on top of it, maybe even slightly weaker wrestling and shit, fought against him - would he dominate? Do you just need SOLID boxing or in the future do you feel the meta will encompass a need for bleeding edge boxing skills?
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A guy with high level pro boxing skills will dominate anyone in MMA, provided they make very key adjustments in their approach to striking defense.

The reason why I like watching MMA more than traditional boxing (which may come as a surprise) is because MMA brings out the best that boxing can offer because the 4 ounce gloves change so much about what tactics you should be using.

Think about guys like Silva or Dominick Cruz. They knew they couldn't hide behind 4 ounce gloves in a guard all they time, so they used boxing's diverse set of head movement instead.

MMA is getting more and more guys who use striking more than grappling, and in particular, boxing, so it's going to become normal for cutting edge boxing skills to show up among all MMA fighters (not just the top guys) soon enough.

Here's something very interesting that I uncovered a while back. It's a psychology article detailing the evolution in strategy for MMA fighters in the UFC. Give it a look. It supports what I've said above.
 
immovable object said:
A guy with high level pro boxing skills will dominate anyone in MMA, provided they make very key adjustments in their approach to striking defense.

The reason why I like watching MMA more than traditional boxing (which may come as a surprise) is because MMA brings out the best that boxing can offer because the 4 ounce gloves change so much about what tactics you should be using.

Think about guys like Silva or Dominick Cruz. They knew they couldn't hide behind 4 ounce gloves in a guard all they time, so they used boxing's diverse set of head movement instead.

MMA is getting more and more guys who use striking more than grappling, and in particular, boxing, so it's going to become normal for cutting edge boxing skills to show up among all MMA fighters (not just the top guys) soon enough.

Here's something very interesting that I uncovered a while back. It's a psychology article detailing the evolution in strategy for MMA fighters in the UFC. Give it a look. It supports what I've said above.
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i will

Do you think this means Conor will keep improving amazingly just because of his investment in boxing? What I'm saying is, I'll concede your point if for example: the difference between Conor's current boxing skill and Mayweather's current boxing skill would make Conor that much better. Basically able to beat even Khabib easily, probably. If he could grasp it, that is. If that's something that sounds like the case, I will concede boxing is severely underlooked

ill stop being autistic after, promise
 
Violent Ken Apologist said:
i will

Do you think this means Conor will keep improving amazingly just because of his investment in boxing? What I'm saying is, I'll concede your point if for example: the difference between Conor's current boxing skill and Mayweather's current boxing skill would make Conor that much better. Basically able to beat even Khabib easily, probably. If he could grasp it, that is. If that's something that sounds like the case, I will concede boxing is severely underlooked

ill stop being autistic after, promise
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Conor does several things that a boxing coach wouldn't recommend. Although his punches are fast, he leaves them hanging a bit and doesn't pull them back into a guard like a boxer should. Also, punching from a position where your guard is at chest level is more energy efficient, because you won't need to waste energy lifting your arm up while throwing your punches. If you watch Conor's training before the Cerrone fight and during the actual bout, you can see that he adapts a more traditional guard.

Even with good boxing, Conor won't be able to beat Khabib too easily. I'm not talking about Khabib's wrestling here, i'm talking about Khabib's chin. Khabib has one of the best chins in MMA and its why he was able to implement his wrestling into the sport. Beeb also has a solid understanding of boxing fundamentals as I said before, which makes Beeb more likely to give Conor trouble.

Provided that Conor improves his boxing and adapts a more economical approach to striking in general (i.e. relying on his punches using low kicks whenever he needs to) he has a good chance of beating Khabib. A hypothetical rematch between the two won't have a defeat that looks as definitive as the Ferguson vs. Gaethje one, but it is definitely a fight where I see Conor earning a unanimous decision.
 
immovable object said:
Conor does several things that a boxing coach wouldn't recommend. Although his punches are fast, he leaves them hanging a bit and doesn't pull them back into a guard like a boxer should. Also, punching from a position where your guard is at chest level is more energy efficient, because you won't need to waste energy lifting your arm up while throwing your punches. If you watch Conor's training before the Cerrone fight and during the actual bout, you can see that he adapts a more traditional guard.

Even with good boxing, Conor won't be able to beat Khabib too easily. I'm not talking about Khabib's wrestling here, i'm talking about Khabib's chin. Khabib has one of the best chins in MMA and its why he was able to implement his wrestling into the sport. Beeb also has a solid understanding of boxing fundamentals as I said before, which makes Beeb more likely to give Conor trouble.

Provided that Conor improves his boxing and adapts a more economical approach to striking in general (i.e. relying on his punches using low kicks whenever he needs to) he has a good chance of beating Khabib. A hypothetical rematch between the two won't have a defeat that looks as definitive as the Ferguson vs. Gaethje one, but it is definitely a fight where I see Conor earning a unanimous decision.
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Conors punching technique is the ultimate double-edged sword for those who have both reach and power on their straight punches. And you’re absolutely right that the way Conor throws and even holds his hands isn’t exactly “traditional”, but I’ve adopted some of his habits (for better or worse) into my own game, as my philosophy and mechanics behind my punches are somewhat similar.

One of the riskiest and more confusing things technically speaking is conors tendency to literally show you his left hand, and move his body in a position where his feet are still heavily bladed but his shoulders are close to square, but his left side will be turned so much that his rear hand becomes his forward hand. He did this most frequently in the Alvarez fight and it worked exactly as intended.

Because I take all of Conors dick and nuts directly down my throat, I’ve played around with the same type of looks from orthodox and found that it can greatly disguise the “true” distance of your punches. Another “bad” Conor habit is his tendency to float and drag his rear foot when reaching full extension on his left straight. While this may leave you exposed, so long as you’re the longer fighter and earn respect with the power of the punch, you can effectively add about another half a foot or more of reach to your punch and quite a bit of extra power by flowing from your hips and shoulder and letting your body follow through with you.

Small side note, but if you watch carefully you’ll notice a lot of the times where Conors left misses and he’s over-extended, he will simply bend his arm after the punch into a triangular shape and cover the side of his jaw that is left exposed. It acts as a pseudo one-armed stonewall guard; even though his hand isn’t back to block, it is very easy to just bend your arm after the punch on the follow through and use it to hide your chin on the now exposed side.

I worry that it will sooner or later result in a night where I have to see Conrad looking up at the lights snoring and I question everything about my own game and life itself, but that’s just fighting. I think Conor gets away with it a lot of the time because he uses these technical flaws as ways to bait strikes to counter and to disguise distance. That’s just the risky game that strikers live to play in their prime and die by when they age.
 
You guys make me wish I wasn't too over the hill to do anything more than casual shit or preparing to train a kid. lol. So you largely agree Conor's striking game is flawed and he isn't doing anything sophisticated by leaving his fists hanging?
 
Violent Ken Apologist said:
You guys make me wish I wasn't too over the hill to do anything more than casual shit or preparing to train a kid. lol. So you largely agree Conor's striking game is flawed and he isn't doing anything sophisticated by leaving his fists hanging?
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He's just handfighting with his lead hand and probing for a td (against a stockywrestler like chad it works)
 
Sheriff of CWCville said:
Conors punching technique is the ultimate double-edged sword for those who have both reach and power on their straight punches. And you’re absolutely right that the way Conor throws and even holds his hands isn’t exactly “traditional”, but I’ve adopted some of his habits (for better or worse) into my own game, as my philosophy and mechanics behind my punches are somewhat similar.

One of the riskiest and more confusing things technically speaking is conors tendency to literally show you his left hand, and move his body in a position where his feet are still heavily bladed but his shoulders are close to square, but his left side will be turned so much that his rear hand becomes his forward hand. He did this most frequently in the Alvarez fight and it worked exactly as intended.

Because I take all of Conors dick and nuts directly down my throat, I’ve played around with the same type of looks from orthodox and found that it can greatly disguise the “true” distance of your punches. Another “bad” Conor habit is his tendency to float and drag his rear foot when reaching full extension on his left straight. While this may leave you exposed, so long as you’re the longer fighter and earn respect with the power of the punch, you can effectively add about another half a foot or more of reach to your punch and quite a bit of extra power by flowing from your hips and shoulder and letting your body follow through with you.

Small side note, but if you watch carefully you’ll notice a lot of the times where Conors left misses and he’s over-extended, he will simply bend his arm after the punch into a triangular shape and cover the side of his jaw that is left exposed. It acts as a pseudo one-armed stonewall guard; even though his hand isn’t back to block, it is very easy to just bend your arm after the punch on the follow through and use it to hide your chin on the now exposed side.

I worry that it will sooner or later result in a night where I have to see Conrad looking up at the lights snoring and I question everything about my own game and life itself, but that’s just fighting. I think Conor gets away with it a lot of the time because he uses these technical flaws as ways to bait strikes to counter and to disguise distance. That’s just the risky game that strikers live to play in their prime and die by when they age.
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Over-extending is never something you want to do, even if you're Conor. Flaring the elbow of the arm you just threw punch with is cool, but it's better to just be in a balanced position to begin with so that when you throw a punch and retract it (quickly), you're in a good position to see counters coming and to respond with more solid defensive tools, such as head movement, shoulder rolls, etc.

Also, you don't want to rely on being the longer fighter. You want a game that is one-size-fits-all (i.e. one that can effectively counter every other style and body type consistently). There is only so many ways that you can hurt a human in the hardest, fastest, and energy efficient way possible that what is considered "the best MMA style" becomes more and more apparent. What's funny is that McGregor is going to face Poirier this month, and the latter is only a mere two inches shorter than him in reach, and they're both pretty much the same height.

Conor also adopted a more square, traditional boxing stance as well. Trying to square your shoulders while your legs are bladed is kind of awkward, so this will give him the ability to feint his left straight more effectively. My guess for why Conor's stance is bladed is because he likes his kicks, but I honestly think that any style that incorporates kicks at 30% or more is doomed to fail because kicks of all kinds are just energy inefficient and slow, which makes them easy to counter with fast punches.

You also don't want to rely on "respect" alone, because you're going to have opponent who don't give a damn about your game and will hold their ground no matter what.

If there's something to praise McGregor for, it's his ability to fight at the very end of his reach. He just needs to couple it with a modified style that is more energy efficient so won't gas himself out, which I deem to be a style incorporating a conventional boxing style that is slightly modified for MMA given the open ruleset.

Since we're on the subject of McGregor, what are all of your predictions on what will happen in his upcoming bout with the Diamond? I would love to hear it.
 
immovable object said:
Over-extending is never something you want to do, even if you're Conor. Flaring the elbow of the arm you just threw punch with is cool, but it's better to just be in a balanced position to begin with so that when you throw a punch and retract it (quickly), you're in a good position to see counters coming and to respond with more solid defensive tools, such as head movement, shoulder rolls, etc.

Also, you don't want to rely on being the longer fighter. You want a game that is one-size-fits-all (i.e. one that can effectively counter every other style and body type consistently). There is only so many ways that you can hurt a human in the hardest, fastest, and energy efficient way possible that what is considered "the best MMA style" becomes more and more apparent. What's funny is that McGregor is going to face Poirier this month, and the latter is only a mere two inches shorter than him in reach, and they're both pretty much the same height.

Conor also adopted a more square, traditional boxing stance as well. Trying to square your shoulders while your legs are bladed is kind of awkward, so this will give him the ability to feint his left straight more effectively. My guess for why Conor's stance is bladed is because he likes his kicks, but I honestly think that any style that incorporates kicks at 30% or more is doomed to fail because kicks of all kinds are just energy inefficient and slow, which makes them easy to counter with fast punches.

You also don't want to rely on "respect" alone, because you're going to have opponent who don't give a damn about your game and will hold their ground no matter what.

If there's something to praise McGregor for, it's his ability to fight at the very end of his reach. He just needs to couple it with a modified style that is more energy efficient so won't gas himself out, which I deem to be a style incorporating a conventional boxing style that is slightly modified for MMA given the open ruleset.

Since we're on the subject of McGregor, what are all of your predictions on what will happen in his upcoming bout with the Diamond? I would love to hear it.
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To be honest with you I don’t really know how it looks or what round it comes in, but I’ve got Conor by KO. I really do think Conor is one of the worst possible matchups for Dustin, and Dustins chin and confidence won’t hold up after he gets cracked a time or two imo. Conor looks different in one way or another every fight, and I don’t think he starts quite as fast as the Cerrone bout, but I think he either catches Dustin with something heavy early and puts him away or it becomes the Alvarez fight where he’s still alive but just waiting for one combo to be put away.

If Poorier wants to have a chance he better bring his singlet and headgear. He needs to find ways to put Conor on the fence or on his ass for 2 rounds at least
 
Conor relies more on movement than actual blocking. He's used to controlling the centre of the octagon. if Poirier forces him on the backfoot, then conor will have to adapt, conors used to counter striking and he's not actually good when it comes to pressure fighters or cardio fighters, his success against cerrone was mainly because cerrone has had issues when it comes to aggression, he can take a punch sure but he has issues recovering. chad mendes was fighting on short notice against him and he's not known for cardio, nate diaz just relied on volume striking in the first fight which was enough to make mcgregor have issues and when he had his rematch he focused on leg kicks to slow nate's movement to make the fight more favourable. Mcgregor is known for having bad cardio and he's known for folding when pressure gets stacked against him, if poirier want's to win against him. he'll have to play the 5 round game and try to prolong the fight
 
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