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- Dec 9, 2015
This is why we kicked your shitty country out of ours lmao fuck the United Cuckdom
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This is why we kicked your shitty country out of ours lmao fuck the United Cuckdom
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2016
that's not necessarily true, and that can be very dangerous advice. shotgun spread with a cylinder bore is roughly .75" (yes, less than one inch) per yard traveled. so at, say, 5 yards (across the room distances), your pattern with standard 2-3/4" 00 buckshot is only 3" to 4" across. that is a far cry less than the breadth of the average human, which is usually represented by an 8" target (heart/lungs/spine/gut).
this is very easy to miss your target when combined with adrenaline, poor lighting, inexperience, adverse environment (obstacles, obstructions, furniture, et c) and a possibly moving target that isn't necessarily presenting the broadest angle towards you.
they also are unlikely to die unless you hit something within the central nervous system, many shotgun victims at 25 yards or farther distances are peppered with shot and survive, and at close range, huge chunks are taken out of flesh, but the spread is negligible enough that a poor shot may hit nothing vital.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-20-buckshot-patterns/
i have shot several people with shotguns in various situations and only 1 died at the scene. 3 survived long enough to still manipulate a weapon, and 2 survived despite very grievous injuries. granted this was one case of self defense and a few military actions where it was handier to use the mossberg vs my carbine.
lastly, they are machines, and most machines can and will malfunction over time. the length of time varies and circumstances shorten or lengthen it. the easiest "jam" i've seen even from trained police officers is "short-shucking" where they do not fully bring the fore-end back far enough to release a shell from the magazine onto the lifter in order to feed the chamber. likewise inexperienced shooters that fire a shotgun indoors without ear protection are often deafened and drop the shotgun out of reflex. this is exacerbated when a "cruiser" model with no stock is purchased for home defense.
an average carbine course is a couple hundred dollars and lasts 3 days. this is nothing compared to the lesson and skills taught, and the ammunition purchased towards proficiency with your weapon. rifles, especially the 5.56x45mm or similar are usually high velocity enough that they shatter easily against most surfaces, making missed shots that penetrate walls unlikely to travel very far (shotgun, rifle, and pistol will all penetrate average interior walls with ease, but lethality after penetration is much less with a small, high velocity, light-weight rifle round).
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/
i cleared dozens if not hundreds of houses in Afghanistan with an M4 carbine and it did just fine for maneuverability. there are certain techniques to use when handling a rifle indoors, chief among them is weapon retention, awareness, proper use of a sling, and keeping it tucked close to the body.
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- Joined
- Mar 23, 2013
Is that a Pietta or an Uberti? I'm thinking of getting an 1851 Navy. I can't decide on Pietta or Uberti. Pietta is cheaper and I like that they have an option for the confederate-style brass frame ( I know, I know... frame stretching. I'm not going to shoot IPSC matches with it. I just want it to have fun a few weekends out of the year in the high desert. ) but they also have that lame "Pietta tail" that I'm not so hot on.
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2016
speaking professionally, the Uberti is a bit finer in manufacturing with care taken for fitting and smoothing of several of the parts such as the hammer/sear, the locking bolt, and the cylinder's relief cut for the ratchet. they both have some minor improvements over the years, mostly in heat treatment and metal prep for finishing (at least they aren't CVA or Traditions which can be borderline pipe bombs).
if i were to compare them both to my Colt 1851 Navy (manufactured 1852, 3rd model, small round TG), i would say the Uberti is improved in some areas where you don't see, as well has a more "plain" appearance which can be desirable. they are more expensive as well, but offer better overall quality. the Pietta has more variations, is more "correct" with parts interchangeability with the original Colt (or Remington if you decide on an 1858 or something), has more standardized parts and arguably more "parts" out there to kind of kit-bash something unique just for you.
a Cimarron/Uberti i think would tick all your boxes in terms of quality and affordability.
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- Joined
- Dec 9, 2015
Yeah and it's way WAY fucking worse with a rifle
There's a home intruder. That person has been to the range a few times in his life. Be honest, what's his best bet:
- handgun
- rifle
- shotgun with buckshot
Shotgun has a major advantage: it's scary as fuck and will make most people aside from hardened killer freeze in their tracks or run away in a way a rifle or handgun won't.
As far as not killing people right away or at all, that's usually what happens with ANY firearm that doesn't score a headshot (and even then) or straight in the heart. That's why the Mozambique Drill came to be.
You have tons of people pumped with like 5-8 bullets who never even realized it right away and thanks to adrenaline were able to defend themselves/kill the people they attacked
The % of Mossberg 500 shotguns who jam is so ridiculously low it might as well not happen at all compared to rifles or handguns.
Stop thinking like a guy in the military and put yourself in the shoes of a civvie who will 1) not go to the range often enough to become proficient and 2) needs a weapon mostly in case some deranged tranny wants to break in not an home invasion with three ghetto rats on pcp
The only sensible home defense solution in his case is a shotgun.
If he was willing to go to the range every weekend for a few hours to become really proficient AND do some training about shooting under stress when there's tons of noise and shit sure I'd suggest to go with a rifle over a shotgun
It's not the case though. This is not Afghanistan or Compton and this is not someone who knows how to handle weapons
Also, thank you for your service
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- Joined
- Mar 11, 2015
You got BTFO'D man.
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2016
handguns - in new/unproficient shooter's hands it is "naturally pointing". this is repeatable with nearly any shooter to get consistent hits at 7-10 yards on paper. no x rings, no tight groups to cloverleaf, but they'll be on paper, and for someone with regular (once a month) practice of a box or two each time they'll be in the black.
don't take my word for it, but observe new shooters at your local range: even people that are intimidated by a firearm and will cringe or limpwrist will be able to get that first shot on paper before bad habits kick in.
a rifle with a simple manual of arms, such as some pistol caliber carbines is even more ideal as there is no chance of a limpwrist malfunction and you have the benefit of a shoulder and more than one hand. even completely new shooters naturally grasp and point a firearm at a threat enough to be able to aim - just as one would throw a ball or spear.
no. do not rely on intimidating someone who has already made the decision or possibly kill you - they have the advantage of that decision already being made in their minds. this is seen in countless defensive shootings (police, concealed carriers, et c) that the decision making process is not instantaneous and simply not needing to make a decision speeds your reaction by removing doubt.
while you have the possible advantage of surprise (many criminals do not expect resistance) or familiarity (home, neighborhood, et c); someone willing to break into a home, or someone willing to threaten someone with harm already has an advantage on you because they have already made the choice to commit a crime bad enough to force you to use a gun to defend yourself.
you give up surprise (by revealing your lack of immediate intention to kill, as well as your location by creating a noise) in the situation, you lose momentum (keeping the tempo and pace of action to remove possibly lethal hesitation), and you are gambling on someone else (who may or may not intend to harm you) reacting in a specific way - you may not have even seen them yet!
heck they would also need to identify the noise and recognize it for what it is, which is yet another roll of the dice.
it is very obvious to defensive shooters, police, military, and many others that you cannot rely on someone already willing to commit a felony (B&E let's say) to react in a way you can predict without eyes and force on target. feel free to google "racking a shotgun to scare burglar" and read the results.
that being said, generally an easy mark is a home not yet burgled. B&E tends to happen during work hours, when people are often away at work - less chance of encountering witnesses or the home owner. home invasions possibly have some other purpose such as a crime of opportunity, kidnapping, rape, thrill killing, and so forth. not people that are predictable enough to make a sound at and ensure they cooperate.
indeed people survive many things. your job, if you are drawing a weapon as lethal as a firearm, is to ensure they stop their attack - if that results in their death, so be it.
Rousseau's story, turned into a techinque (now called the Failure Drill, IIRC) i'm quite familiar with is not easy to perform as movies would lead you to believe. you must score two hits to either side of the sterum (or the sternum itself) to break, crush, or puncture the lungs to incapacitate the threat and force them to lose momentum and lurch trying to breath. with their head and/or neck presented forward more of their brain (vs the face or jaw) is exposed, and a well placed shot to the now slower more stable target should stop them from being a continued threat. i have done this technique many times.
gut shots from poor form and recoil management and a shot that misses the head from lack of practice is neither lethal nor reliably a threat stopper.
read my example. the most common even to familiar shooters is user error - short shucking, or surprise at the noise/blast from firing indoors without hearing protection. that malfunction from lack of training is a sure show-stopper as any stovepipe or doublefeed.
1. that's a little condescending.
2. people in the military who pass basic training qualify on specific weapons and are given the bare minimum of training to be proficient enough to pass. the amount of dumbassery and idiots i've served with, have trained with, fought alongside, and after my tour, came home and work with or see around town is far worse than many in the shooting world.
3. anyone serious about defending themselves should be serious about picking up professional training and putting in the time to practice. to do otherwise is directly saying that you are too cheap to buy training ammunition to build skills and muscle memory, and that you are too prideful or too cheap to pay for a trainer to improve your initial talents. the gun may as well be a toy or magic talisman in the hands of the willfully untrained/unpracticed.
4. any weapon adequate enough to kill one person can, with practice and training be used to survive an encounter with multiple assailants. not unscathed, but enough to get to a hospital or home, rather than a body bag.
5. the "sensible gun" is a gun a shooter is familiar with, trained with, practiced with, and comfortable with. for very new shooters, especially with modern media, that is the automatic handgun or a J-frame revolver. point and shoot with one hand (as people do naturally from a young age) and a simple manual of arms in general with less involved muscle memory hurdles to interfere with a largely "automatic" action.
6. i'm uninterested in any line of argument that seriously pushes the idea of "buy a gun, point at the bad man and pull the "go away" lever". it's a bad argument and one that has gotten people killed and put shiny unused guns in the hands of determined felons.
all the more reason to get every possible advantage that constraints allow.
if your life is worth defending, isn't it also worth defending to the very best of your ability? to ensure you have every possibly advantage you can attain? such as training, practice, and familiarity?
pushing a "shotgun" as a magic band aid of point-n-shoot 1 hit kill if the break in artist who perfectly hears and understands the warning noise of "shotgun" coming from the left isn't somehow scared into a blubbering pile of fear is making a lot of assumptions of character, removing advantages of the home team, and moreover relying on something blatantly untrue: shotguns are not cure-alls.
anything that will be lethal to men will likely penetrate several interior walls. glaser or frangible rounds are less likely to penetrate and be lethal.
#4 shot reduced recoil (or managed recoil, et c marketing names) 12 gauge buckshot will be very lethal at in-home distances and a Mossberg 500 (or a Maverick 88 if you want to be especially cheap... an IAC's Hawk 982 is decent as well at the low price points you want i think) would work as well as any reasonable quality shotgun if you are settled on one.
be very sure you practice
consider a Glock 22 as well - a .40 S&W that i'm sure local police near you use. if you use the same pistol and ammunition as the police, and you practice, and you ensure you shoot to kill if you're shooting at all, and you shot in good faith that you had reasonable and immediate fear for your life, it would be hard to "throw the book at you". i know you have a handgun already so the manual of arms would be something at least modestly familiar with and the Glock is inexpensive used, are quality made, and readily available with few controls to "get in the way" of defensive shooting.
if you want to simplify logistics, consider a Glock 17 or 19 then, and share ammunition with your VP9. defensive JHP like Speer Gold-Dots is readily available.
remember, anything you fire that is lethal, if you miss, will very likely penetrate interior walls and may escape the house and hit unintentional targets. get training and practice practice practice to avoid misses and handle yourself well.
your life and the lives of others may depend on your ability to not fuck up.
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- Joined
- Nov 14, 2012
Well part of my thing is that I can't own a handgun in the state I'm moving to. If I could I'd just keep my H&K VP9
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2015
while the site was down, I bought two Chilean 1895 Mausers with pre-1899 serials, but I am traveling right now so I can't take pics. One is a Mosqueton/Short Rifle in the original milsurp configuration, mismatched bolt but the stock, bore, rifling, and metal finishing is in very pretty condition. The other is a Long Rifle that has a slightly sporterized stock (only the front was chopped and the handguard removed, the rest is intact) and the barrel cut down to the Short Rifle's length. This one has all matching serials and was re-blued at some point. I wish they had left the rear sight and the bolt in the white, but otherwise it wasn't too sloppy of a re-blueing.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2013
Thanks a lot for the info. I'll definitely sock a little more away for the Uberti then. (Price isn't really the issue, it's more a question of how long I want to wait and justifying buying a revolver that I won't really use often, and probably would never use in self-defense.)
I'm sort of new to black powder. I have a tower flintlock pistol that I've shot a grand total of once in my life (because it's an heirloom and I don't wanna be the JERK who fucked it up.) and totally new to percussion weapons, so I'll admit that my preference is purely aesthetic. I actually like the lines of the 1851 way more than I like the '60 or '61. But more than anything, it's that I've never owned a firearm with an octagonal barrel and I feel like I need one for no reason that I can articulate.
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JULAY
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2013
I second the suggestion of a Mossberg pump action 12 gauge, though I would personally go with the 590 7 shot Tactical model over the standard 500. 18.5 inch barrel, 7 + 1 shell capacity, about $350 - $375 shipped with an FFL transfer fee. Mossberg also makes a different in-house, slightly lower quality line of shotguns, the Maverick. A similar Maverick model (Model 88 Security) to the Mossberg 590 can be had for around $200 bucks. I have owned both models at different points, and I would say that for the money, as a home defense weapon, my choice would be the Maverick.
Here's the trouble with that... Any round that will reliably stop an attacker is going to have some risk of overpenetration. That's just a fact of terminal ballistics, the projectile has to have enough mass and velocity to penetrate a minimum of 12 inches of ballistic gel to reliably drop a person. And any projectile that can do that will have the potential of impacting an unintended target after going through wall materials, particularly sheetrock / drywall. The best thing that you can do is to make a personal compromise between firing a round that will have less risk of stopping an attacker, but also will have less risk of overpenetration. I read a great article that advocated for #1 buckshot in 12 gauge. Here's a link:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-56-federal-flight-control-1-buckshot/
The article makes some great points, but personally, I keep mine loaded with 00 buck followed up with a few 12 gauge slugs at the end of the pipe. But I live in a rural area of a very red state, so overpenetration and/or legal trouble aren't much of a concern for me. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2015
You are right, they are not cure-alls. I never claimed they were
My reply to null is a continuation to a discussion we've had (very intermittently) over the last six months about guns in chat and that's why I suggested a Mossberg 500. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that to everyone, it is on a case by case basis everyone agrees. But it's also on the top of pretty much every single list of the best weapons to get for home defense.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2015
I suggested the barebone 500 model because of budget concerns while still getting you the best possible option in my eyes
If you are willing to shell out around $500 for used, then definitely go for the 590A1, 8+1 shots is definitely better (though you can find some 500s with the same capacity but rarely see them used for some reason)
Plus, you know, a bayonet to make sure they are dead afterwards
If you are willing to shell out around $500 for used, then definitely go for the 590A1, 8+1 shots is definitely better (though you can find some 500s with the same capacity but rarely see them used for some reason)
Plus, you know, a bayonet to make sure they are dead afterwards
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- Joined
- Mar 9, 2015
You don't need any of that tacticool crap, just get something that eats 3" shells and you'll be fine.
1oz slugs are really really nasty as well as heavy buck. Some SD loads use a bit of both.
If cost is an issue my friend has a Maverick 88 it's a repo of the 500 I was impressed with it.
1oz slugs are really really nasty as well as heavy buck. Some SD loads use a bit of both.
If cost is an issue my friend has a Maverick 88 it's a repo of the 500 I was impressed with it.
JULAY
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2013
I'd go with one of these:
http://www.mossberg.com/product/maverick-88-security-31046/
The 8 round model has a 20" barrel instead of 18.5", but I think the two extra rounds are worth having.
Here's a link to Gunbroker with various Mossberg Maverick models up for sale. Gunbroker is like eBay for guns.
http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=maverick
You can probably find one locally as well, call a gun shop and if they don't stock them, they'll order it for you. Around here, even Wal-Mart carries them. Pretty easy to find, tbh.
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2016
well, there's precious few places in the US where there are handgun restrictions statewide, and even those places do not ban them, but make the process of obtaining one onerous - so that narrows down your destination considerably if it's inside the US.
if you're settled on a pump shotgun, you can do much worse than a Mossberg 500 (or 500A which you find used here and there). the Maverick 88 is a cost-reduced variation of the 500 that my distributor can sell to me for under $100, so retail would hover between $140-$210 depending on location and features. add a hundred or two for the 500 "security" variation. in those places that restrict handguns, many have a few requirements for long gun ownership and often prices are slightly inflated as well.
a Hawk 982 is an Chinese 870 clone that is largely parts compatible and has excellent build quality, coming in often the better gun at the better price when compared to other offerings out there. when buying any gun, physically examine the action and movement to ensure you can reach all controls comfortably, you aren't straining at all, and the gun will not interfere with you movements or ability to retain control over it when grappling. buy a couple boxes of appropriate ammunition and put in practice time. if you're unwilling or unable to hire a trainer, just record yourself and watch the playback, and compared the footage to youtube video of shotgun/trap/skeet/3gun shooters to help remove errors and be a better shooter.
personally, i would still recommend a pistol caliber carbine and Speer Gold-Dots - a blowback Kel-Tec Sub 2000 (get the Gen 2, it hovers around $400-$500 NIB retail) offers more ammunition, better control under recoil, uses ammunition you already have, has a simple manual of arms, and doesn't break the bank. places that restrict handguns tend to have ammunition capacity limits, and may or may not have reasonable self defense laws.
CA has surprisingly strong self defense laws. New Jersey does not. learn your local laws in the place where you feel you may need the gun.
other options include Stevens (import), Savage (import), H&R (import), and used older Wincehsters, Mossbergs, Sears (Western Auto, et c), Charles Dalys, Remingtons (budsguns, gunbroker, gunsamerica, local pawn shops, gun club bbs, et c) and others.
a gun is only as good as the ammunition.
shotgun ammunition is a very old technology - and the box says as much. it measures (black) powder in drams or dram-equivalents (try and get around 1200 feet per second for 00 buck or similar), and offers bore sizes using portions of a lead sphere. the shotgun is one of the most versatile firearms invented.
let's simplify things and assume you are getting a 12 gauge. the 12 gauge means that a solid lead sphere that is 1/12th of a pound will just fit down the barrel. some bores are measured conventionally using caliber (portions of an inch, like .410" shotguns). 12 gauge (and 20 gauge) is probably the most popular and commonly found ammunition for modern shotguns and has a variety of loads for a variety of purposes. they come in a few lengths and types. low brass is generally birdshot or similar light loads and is characterized by the brass being very near the rim of the cartridge. high brass has a centimeter or two of brass above the rim in order to contain a greater powder charge. this is not always the case, but most manufacturers use those conventions. always read the box to determine its intended use.
when in doubt: high brass is what you want typically, but this isn't always the case these days with modern high-performance powders. instead read the velocity information on the box. inside a typical high brass shell's hull (the plastic/paper upper portion) is also some powder, but a wad or power-piston, which physically takes up space and allows compression of the shot into the shot-cup in order to have more consistent patterns out the bore. the shot cup holds the shot - steel or lead (usually) pellets in specific sizes that is your actual projectile. there are 8 or 9 pellets about .35" in diameter inside the cup for typical loads. magnum loads, with a longer hull, contain 12-15. at defensive ranges, each pellet is roughly like being shot with a .32 pistol bullet. magnum shells are about 3" and are very hard recoiling as the projectile mass has increased significantly. i do not recommend using them unless you're used to them.
as the pellet travel down the bore after firing, they are compressed into the shot cup by inertia, and by any choke on the barrel. shotgun chokes narrow the bore at the end to improve patterning at a specific range. i personally prefer an improved cylinder choke on defensive shotguns, but at the prices you're looking at, a full cylinder or full bore choke (so 12 gauge being .76" diameter) will not extend your pattern. tighter chokes keep the pellets together as a mass in flight for longer ranges and are very useful for hunting. defensive shotguns generally this is a disadvantage, i prefer IC simply because it patterns very well with my particular defensive load at the range i want it to be very lethal at.
when buying ammunition, it will say the size of the pellets. there are multiple types of shot (ignoring other types for now), and are generally categorized by use: pest (rat, snake), bird (dove, quail), waterfowl (duck, geese), and buck (deer, bear). the sizes you would be interested in would be 00 buck, 000 buck, and #4 buck. #4 buck has pellets about a quarter of an inch in size, and is often available in "reduced recoil" defensive loads, and is used by many police as a middle ground for indoors work. standard 00 buck is more common however and some brands offer a reduced recoil variation of their hunting ammunition which is often adequate for defense.
historically, pellet sizes are based on #7 birdshot as made in Bristol by Watts back in the 1700's by dripping lead alloy through a specific hole size. the size was decided upon by being able to fit 7 such spheres comfortably (each is 1.5mm in size) in a .75 Brown Bess for use as a hunting tool.
lastly there are slugs. back in the day (probably before many here were born) everyone used pellets, and for using their shotgun as a po0r-man's musket, a .70" musket ball was loaded into a cardboard sleeve and fired with a large primer and 3 drams of black powder. a very smart guy developed an over-engineered Brenneke assembly that married a wood screw, some fiber wafers and wads to a lead Minié bullet and created the first slug that had good enough ballistics to simulate rifle fire. in the 1930's Karl Foster made a cast of a lead bullet that had a hollow tail, called the Foster slug, which is the most common type today. a slug is effectively a single giant bullet that turns your shotgun into a very large and somewhat range-limited rifle. they are measured in ounces and have prodigious recoil. i don't recommend them unless you have a specific purpose in mind and are used to them.
contrary to popular belief, the slug's "rifling" isn't intended to impart spin in smoothbores (in fact slugs do best in rifled shotgun barrels), but they are crush zones to overcome some chokes. while you can use them with most chokes (other than extremely tight waterfowl ones) it's recommended to use improved cylinder which does well with both slugs and shot.
my personal pet loads are Remington #8 STS, Federal #4 Power-Shok, and Federal LE 00 buck. i prefer Kent or Federal for most of the upland hunting i do with some Winchester for birds.
if you're settled on a pump shotgun, you can do much worse than a Mossberg 500 (or 500A which you find used here and there). the Maverick 88 is a cost-reduced variation of the 500 that my distributor can sell to me for under $100, so retail would hover between $140-$210 depending on location and features. add a hundred or two for the 500 "security" variation. in those places that restrict handguns, many have a few requirements for long gun ownership and often prices are slightly inflated as well.
a Hawk 982 is an Chinese 870 clone that is largely parts compatible and has excellent build quality, coming in often the better gun at the better price when compared to other offerings out there. when buying any gun, physically examine the action and movement to ensure you can reach all controls comfortably, you aren't straining at all, and the gun will not interfere with you movements or ability to retain control over it when grappling. buy a couple boxes of appropriate ammunition and put in practice time. if you're unwilling or unable to hire a trainer, just record yourself and watch the playback, and compared the footage to youtube video of shotgun/trap/skeet/3gun shooters to help remove errors and be a better shooter.
personally, i would still recommend a pistol caliber carbine and Speer Gold-Dots - a blowback Kel-Tec Sub 2000 (get the Gen 2, it hovers around $400-$500 NIB retail) offers more ammunition, better control under recoil, uses ammunition you already have, has a simple manual of arms, and doesn't break the bank. places that restrict handguns tend to have ammunition capacity limits, and may or may not have reasonable self defense laws.
CA has surprisingly strong self defense laws. New Jersey does not. learn your local laws in the place where you feel you may need the gun.
other options include Stevens (import), Savage (import), H&R (import), and used older Wincehsters, Mossbergs, Sears (Western Auto, et c), Charles Dalys, Remingtons (budsguns, gunbroker, gunsamerica, local pawn shops, gun club bbs, et c) and others.
a gun is only as good as the ammunition.
shotgun ammunition is a very old technology - and the box says as much. it measures (black) powder in drams or dram-equivalents (try and get around 1200 feet per second for 00 buck or similar), and offers bore sizes using portions of a lead sphere. the shotgun is one of the most versatile firearms invented.
let's simplify things and assume you are getting a 12 gauge. the 12 gauge means that a solid lead sphere that is 1/12th of a pound will just fit down the barrel. some bores are measured conventionally using caliber (portions of an inch, like .410" shotguns). 12 gauge (and 20 gauge) is probably the most popular and commonly found ammunition for modern shotguns and has a variety of loads for a variety of purposes. they come in a few lengths and types. low brass is generally birdshot or similar light loads and is characterized by the brass being very near the rim of the cartridge. high brass has a centimeter or two of brass above the rim in order to contain a greater powder charge. this is not always the case, but most manufacturers use those conventions. always read the box to determine its intended use.
when in doubt: high brass is what you want typically, but this isn't always the case these days with modern high-performance powders. instead read the velocity information on the box. inside a typical high brass shell's hull (the plastic/paper upper portion) is also some powder, but a wad or power-piston, which physically takes up space and allows compression of the shot into the shot-cup in order to have more consistent patterns out the bore. the shot cup holds the shot - steel or lead (usually) pellets in specific sizes that is your actual projectile. there are 8 or 9 pellets about .35" in diameter inside the cup for typical loads. magnum loads, with a longer hull, contain 12-15. at defensive ranges, each pellet is roughly like being shot with a .32 pistol bullet. magnum shells are about 3" and are very hard recoiling as the projectile mass has increased significantly. i do not recommend using them unless you're used to them.
as the pellet travel down the bore after firing, they are compressed into the shot cup by inertia, and by any choke on the barrel. shotgun chokes narrow the bore at the end to improve patterning at a specific range. i personally prefer an improved cylinder choke on defensive shotguns, but at the prices you're looking at, a full cylinder or full bore choke (so 12 gauge being .76" diameter) will not extend your pattern. tighter chokes keep the pellets together as a mass in flight for longer ranges and are very useful for hunting. defensive shotguns generally this is a disadvantage, i prefer IC simply because it patterns very well with my particular defensive load at the range i want it to be very lethal at.
when buying ammunition, it will say the size of the pellets. there are multiple types of shot (ignoring other types for now), and are generally categorized by use: pest (rat, snake), bird (dove, quail), waterfowl (duck, geese), and buck (deer, bear). the sizes you would be interested in would be 00 buck, 000 buck, and #4 buck. #4 buck has pellets about a quarter of an inch in size, and is often available in "reduced recoil" defensive loads, and is used by many police as a middle ground for indoors work. standard 00 buck is more common however and some brands offer a reduced recoil variation of their hunting ammunition which is often adequate for defense.
historically, pellet sizes are based on #7 birdshot as made in Bristol by Watts back in the 1700's by dripping lead alloy through a specific hole size. the size was decided upon by being able to fit 7 such spheres comfortably (each is 1.5mm in size) in a .75 Brown Bess for use as a hunting tool.
lastly there are slugs. back in the day (probably before many here were born) everyone used pellets, and for using their shotgun as a po0r-man's musket, a .70" musket ball was loaded into a cardboard sleeve and fired with a large primer and 3 drams of black powder. a very smart guy developed an over-engineered Brenneke assembly that married a wood screw, some fiber wafers and wads to a lead Minié bullet and created the first slug that had good enough ballistics to simulate rifle fire. in the 1930's Karl Foster made a cast of a lead bullet that had a hollow tail, called the Foster slug, which is the most common type today. a slug is effectively a single giant bullet that turns your shotgun into a very large and somewhat range-limited rifle. they are measured in ounces and have prodigious recoil. i don't recommend them unless you have a specific purpose in mind and are used to them.
contrary to popular belief, the slug's "rifling" isn't intended to impart spin in smoothbores (in fact slugs do best in rifled shotgun barrels), but they are crush zones to overcome some chokes. while you can use them with most chokes (other than extremely tight waterfowl ones) it's recommended to use improved cylinder which does well with both slugs and shot.
my personal pet loads are Remington #8 STS, Federal #4 Power-Shok, and Federal LE 00 buck. i prefer Kent or Federal for most of the upland hunting i do with some Winchester for birds.
Last edited:
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- Mar 9, 2015
How to be a responsible gun owner, by bassomatic.