Magic The Gathering

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

I would not be surprised if WotC discovers not a lot of retention of new players who picked up the DW decks.

Quite frankly I want to know the general retention of Universes Beyond Products in general.

 

[Flexo]

Quite frankly I want to know the general retention of Universes Beyond Products in general.

Oh me too. I haven't seen or met anybody yet who stuck with magic from Warhammer 40k. If there was any retention I would bet it was from LotR because it's SOOOO big and the fandom includes a lot of board gamers. Of course since it's pretty new, I'm curious how long they'll stay. I have my doubts it will be more than a year.

Fallout I could see going either way. Video gamers and board gamers overlap quite a bit so I could see a 50/50 shot of fans getting mtg-addicted from that set vs one-and-done.

I remember in an article MaRo (which I can't find now because WotC's website's search function sucks) talked about how with the Time Spiral block their sales metrics showed a lot of product sold - but tournament attendance down. This is when they realized that the set was selling like gangbusters to old players, but wasn't bringing in any new players and they needed to fix that. So since then they've tried to make sets designed for both the experienced and newbies.

I am still curious of WotC even knows or care about tournament attendance or if Hasbro is just making them care about sales. Because I again would bet good money that these universe beyond products have the same problem: lots of sales, not much attendance (or any other sign of new players joining in).

 

[Logistical Nightmare]

Now I’m actually more excited to play these decks… I’ve got all of them prepped and ready for a group play session, but I haven’t had a chance to sit down and jam some games. I’m more willing to consider the UB series as a success if they’re interesting enough to make players that know what they’re doing think, but I feel like that only intensifies the issue of incompetent from the design team, since they don’t have to actually work on the original magic IP.

Also, I meant to post this when it came up in the community happenings thread, but look who was listed on the SweetBaby client list… what a surprise. I wonder just what cringe shit we have them to thank for.

 

[DOUBLE_WHEEL]

Also, I meant to post this when it came up in the community happenings thread, but look who was listed on the SweetBaby client list… what a surprise. I wonder just what cringe shit we have them to thank for.

Why would wotc need to outsource their garbage writing or virtue signaling when they had Sam Maggs and that tranny Justice Geddes on the narrative team? Seems like a waste of money when you're already pretty well poisoned on wokeshit.

 

[Flexo]

Now I’m actually more excited to play these decks… I’ve got all of them prepped and ready for a group play session, but I haven’t had a chance to sit down and jam some games. I’m more willing to consider the UB series as a success if they’re interesting enough to make players that know what they’re doing think, but I feel like that only intensifies the issue of incompetent from the design team, since they don’t have to actually work on the original magic IP.

Be sure to give us a report! No joke we were having a kind of UB day today as in addition to DW, someone was playing a WH40k deck as well. I'm curious how some of those go. The "evil" grixis deck seems to have the same problem as the grixis wizard precon and some others of those colors where its chock full of flashy expensive stuff - and virtually no ramp so the player using them is - at most - playing 1-2 spells a turn.

The wizard tribal deck I found frustrating (I was pulling it out of mothballs the other day to give it a try) because it has like 3 lines of play for its 3 (really 4) possible commanders and all 3 seem to pull in different directions. The DW decks are MUCH better designed. Each deck has several possible commanders you can field. Even though the main villain deck commanders also have different lines of play, the deck this time seems designed so at least each line combos and plays well with the others. Likewise paradox power deck has several options to play but all of them still feel like they are helping you.

Also this card is really dope.


It's just begging to be broken by someone who has built and knows their deck so well, they can turn any spell into a targeted tutor.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Be sure to give us a report! No joke we were having a kind of UB day today as in addition to DW, someone was playing a WH40k deck as well. I'm curious how some of those go. The "evil" grixis deck seems to have the same problem as the grixis wizard precon and some others of those colors where its chock full of flashy expensive stuff - and virtually no ramp so the player using them is - at most - playing 1-2 spells a turn.

The wizard tribal deck I found frustrating (I was pulling it out of mothballs the other day to give it a try) because it has like 3 lines of play for its 3 (really 4) possible commanders and all 3 seem to pull in different directions. The DW decks are MUCH better designed. Each deck has several possible commanders you can field. Even though the main villain deck commanders also have different lines of play, the deck this time seems designed so at least each line combos and plays well with the others. Likewise paradox power deck has several options to play but all of them still feel like they are helping you.

Also this card is really dope.
View attachment 5471126

It's just begging to be broken by someone who has built and knows their deck so well, they can turn any spell into a targeted tutor.

The problem I have with This is that its a 5 mana Ramp spell and isn't really in the colors that abuse Utopia Sprawl type effects.

 

[Flexo]

The problem I have with This is that its a 5 mana Ramp spell and isn't really in the colors that abuse Utopia Sprawl type effects.

Yeah yeah Mister "oh the One Ring is way too expensive and will never see play."

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Yeah yeah Mister "oh the One Ring is way too expensive and will never see play."

Without ways to untap the land it is just kind of Maelstrom Nexus or Sunbird's Invocation and while I love Sunbirb's It never really went off all that well for me.

 

[Logistical Nightmare]

Be sure to give us a report! No joke we were having a kind of UB day today as in addition to DW, someone was playing a WH40k deck as well. I'm curious how some of those go. The "evil" grixis deck seems to have the same problem as the grixis wizard precon and some others of those colors where its chock full of flashy expensive stuff - and virtually no ramp so the player using them is - at most - playing 1-2 spells a turn.

The wizard tribal deck I found frustrating (I was pulling it out of mothballs the other day to give it a try) because it has like 3 lines of play for its 3 (really 4) possible commanders and all 3 seem to pull in different directions. The DW decks are MUCH better designed. Each deck has several possible commanders you can field. Even though the main villain deck commanders also have different lines of play, the deck this time seems designed so at least each line combos and plays well with the others. Likewise paradox power deck has several options to play but all of them still feel like they are helping you.

Also this card is really dope.
View attachment 5471126

It's just begging to be broken by someone who has built and knows their deck so well, they can turn any spell into a targeted tutor.

Three words: Staff of Domination.
The mana from this doesn’t have to be spent on anything, you net one every activation, and the cascades stack. It’s basically a build your own apex devastator if you cast something with a high enough Cmc.

 

[Flexo]

Without ways to untap the land it is just kind of Maelstrom Nexus or Sunbird's Invocation and while I love Sunbirb's It never really went off all that well for me.

What @Logistical Nightmare said. You can stick it on an artifact and I know those have untap shenanigans.

Three words: Staff of Domination.
The mana from this doesn’t have to be spent on anything, you net one every activation, and the cascades stack. It’s basically a build your own apex devastator if you cast something with a high enough Cmc.

Or even stagger the cascades on a bunch of different spells and have a full on 2-for-1 turn. I'd almost throw it in a war doctor deck for the sheer number of exiles if I wasn't already committed to black as the add in.

 

[Noebel]

you net one every activation

If untapping Staff of Domination nets you one mana, you can just draw your deck and generate enough mana to cast everything normally.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

If untapping Staff of Domination nets you one mana, you can just draw your deck and generate enough mana to cast everything normally.

Yes.

 

[Flexo]

If untapping Staff of Domination nets you one mana, you can just draw your deck and generate enough mana to cast everything normally.

Why bother with that extra sequencing when you can just infinite cascade and skip past all the land?

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Why bother with that extra sequencing when you can just infinite cascade and skip past all the land?

Because then you don't just have to bottom the (presumably Interaction based) cards you hit on the cascades?

 

[Rich Evans Ayypologist]

It's just begging to be broken by someone who has built and knows their deck so well, they can turn any spell into a targeted tutor.

It's fine for casual EDH, great value and some convoluted combo-shenanigan nonsense. It's unplayable in 'meta' EDH, owing to its high mana cost.
Generally speaking, if you're using cascade-as-tutor to hit specific spells, you'd just play a suite of normal cascade cards which fit the suite of your target lower-than mana cost.

Similar to Beseech the Mirror or whatever - it wound up being good, but it didn't break the formats I was told it was supposed to break.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

It's fine for casual EDH, great value and some convoluted combo-shenanigan nonsense. It's unplayable in 'meta' EDH, owing to its high mana cost.
Generally speaking, if you're using cascade-as-tutor to hit specific spells, you'd just play a suite of normal cascade cards which fit the suite of your target lower-than mana cost.

Similar to Beseech the Mirror or whatever - it wound up being good, but it didn't break the formats I was told it was supposed to break.

There is also the fact that to abuse cascade you have a specific set of cards to avoid dud hits while you are cascading.

In 60 Card formats you have enough "Passable" cards to act as filler that you can actually cast, and the payoff has to be really powerful. The Rhinos deck manages this just because 2 4/4s with trample end up needing a silver bullet to deal with.

in EDH you are probably trying to cascade into a combo of some sort?

 

[Retink Retunk]

There is also the fact that to abuse cascade you have a specific set of cards to avoid dud hits while you are cascading.

In 60 Card formats you have enough "Passable" cards to act as filler that you can actually cast, and the payoff has to be really powerful. The Rhinos deck manages this just because 2 4/4s with trample end up needing a silver bullet to deal with.

in EDH you are probably trying to cascade into a combo of some sort?

The original Cascade deck in Type 2 wasn't really aiming for something explosive but rather just excessive value. Legacy also had something similar with Shardless into Baleful Strix before everything went to shit.

Realistically Cascade wants to just be a value build where each card is a double or even triple cast. BBE into Blightning on turn 4 was always brutal, and Bit Blast into BBE into Blightning or Thrynax was absurd. The only reason Cascade isn't a thing in EDH is critical mass of cards to keep cascading, but there will be a day where you don't care what you cast with Cascade or Discovery, it will keep hitting and be enough. Even in something like Modern or Legacy eventually hits a point where a three drop cascades into a two drop which then cascades into Rhinos.

 

[Oddjob OTP]

100 cards just makes cascade really hard as a reliable tutor. If you want to be able to say, cast bloodbraid or shardless agent and a specific 3 mana spell off it you have to build your deck to have zero spells 0-2 cmc 1 spell at 3cmc and the rest at 4 cmc or more which kinds of just cripples your deck just to have an awkward tutor. Cascade just kind of has to be a value/chaos thing in EDH, which kinds of keeps it out of CEDH. Codie is probably my favorite cascade commander though but your opponents basically have to be high to to let you spin him.

 

[Rich Evans Ayypologist]

There is also the fact that to abuse cascade you have a specific set of cards to avoid dud hits while you are cascading.

That's what I mean. For example, there's a Plargg / Augusta meme deck that runs one card total under three CMC, that being Glimpse of Tomorrow. In addition to the commander, you could just run 4cmc-or-above cascade cards to ensure that any casecade will eventually roll into Glimpse.

The same logic would apply in a combo deck: you pick your 'minimum' cascade, and then only allow cheaper cascade cards to slot in below that level.

Realistically, it would be very boring, as winning deterministically in EDH (minus a counter) tends to make for "oh, I guess this deck is kinda uninteresting" moments. Trayzn and Vannifar turned out to both be extremely boring to pilot.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

That's what I mean. For example, there's a Plargg / Augusta meme deck that runs one card total under three CMC, that being Glimpse of Tomorrow. In addition to the commander, you could just run 4cmc-or-above cascade cards to ensure that any casecade will eventually roll into Glimpse.

The same logic would apply in a combo deck: you pick your 'minimum' cascade, and then only allow cheaper cascade cards to slot in below that level.

Realistically, it would be very boring, as winning deterministically in EDH (minus a counter) tends to make for "oh, I guess this deck is kinda uninteresting" moments. Trayzn and Vannifar turned out to both be extremely boring to pilot.

I mean it wouldn't just be "Boring" because it wins deterministically, but the fact that the deck looks like it would fold to any interaction, and you can't run the shoes to protect your commander that has to untap to activate.