Islam

[Cosmos]

So, the substantial difference I see between Islam and Christianity is that the Koran is super literal about its rules.

The bible talks in parables and riddles. It's up to the reader to interpret what they mean, and two different readers can interpret the same parable in very different ways.

Islam is very explicit. "The punishment for X is Y." or "You can eat X and Y animals, but only if you prepare them in precisely the right way."

This inflexibility is cool when it makes charity mandatory. But it's not very cool when it comes to subjugating women or amputating thieve's hands.

I'm not an expert on Islam, and I don't know how significant this inflexibility is in practice. I would imagine that most muslims can integrate with western democracies easily enough. But I would also imagine that muslims have to work harder to resolve conflicts between what the Koran says and modern liberal values. Like, it's probably easier for a muslim growing up in a ghetto to become radicalized and blow stuff up, compared to non-muslims that grow up in ghettos. They just turn to ordinary, non-religious crime.

Edit: Or, not just the Koran. Just Islamic jurisprudence in general.

Another big thing that separates the Bible (namely the Old Testament) and the Quran is whether the violence within them is descriptive or prescriptive. Generally, violence in the Bible is descriptive, merely chronicling violent events (NOTE: I'm in no way saying that the Bible doesn't contain prescriptive messages of violence, because it totally does. I'm just saying that many of the infamous Old Testament stories are just, well, stories, not passages that actually encourage violence).

However, a lot of violence in the Quran can be interpreted as being prescriptive, even if they are technically in a descriptive context. A lot of verses of violence in the Quran are open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. For example, it's rather easy for a terrorist to take the verse (9:29) "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" and use it as justification for their acts because the Quran doesn't contain a whole lot of historical context. I've seen Muslims try to contextualize this verse, but it's always by citing non-Quranic sources. However, the Bible itself contains the historical context, which makes it harder for extremists to get away with citing them.

It's also rather unfortunate that the Quran doesn't have anything like the New Testament. Yes, dumbass Christians cite the Old Testament all the time to be bigoted shits, but at least the New Testament is there to contradict them (for example, Jesus "Love thy neighbor" Christ probably wouldn't approve of "GOD HATES FAGS" signs). There's not really anything comparable to that in the Quran. In fact, most of the peaceful and tolerant verses are from early on in Muhammad's career, before he had the political and military power to assert Islam.

 

[WhoopieDoo]

With all due respect who gives a damn? Do Christians believe some wacky thing? Yes absolutely, but adherents of Christian and Jewish theology aren't causing massive amounts of death and destruction around the globe like Islam is.

Because a comparison and analysis of similarities and differences can help you understand what is going on?

Do you have no interest to learn what the truth is? Or do you just pick whatever opinion sounds nice and stick with that? Maybe it's not Islam, maybe it's another cultural influence. Maybe it's a combination of both. How do you know if you dont't study it?

 

[Ruin]

Because a comparison and analysis of similarities and differences can help you understand what is going on?

Do you have no interest to learn what the truth is? Or do you just pick whatever opinion sounds nice and stick with that? Maybe it's not Islam, maybe it's another cultural influence. Maybe it's a combination of both. How do you know if you dont't study it?

Theory is nice and extremely interesting in an academic sense but if people die why does it matter if the motivation was cultural or religious?

 

[Alex Krycek]

Theory is nice and extremely interesting in an academic sense but if people die why does it matter if the motivation was cultural or religious?

Because it prevents you from slaughtering people from vastly different geographic regions based on their religious beliefs.

 

[WhoopieDoo]

Theory is nice and extremely interesting in an academic sense but if people die why does it matter if the motivation was cultural or religious?

Yes, as laws are being proposed (and passed) and actions are being taken. Laws and actions that may be based on misinformation and may not just be a waste of time and money, but even be counter-productive.

You can't stop someone if you don't understand their motivation. "Just bomb them to hell" doesn't work, and will never work.

 

[MrRenegadeRooster]

Sure, but religion is a part of culture. Islamic values inform the general culture moreso than the other way around because of how fundamentalist it still is.

Islam hasn't been subject to the modernizing pressures of a Renaissance or Enlightenment (well, it was, but the Golden Age of Islam was relatively short-lived and stamped out pretty thoroughly).

Your absolutely right culture and religon are very closely tied things, and influence each other greatly, religon is a culture in of itself and is apart of other peoples cultures. That does not mean that Islam in of itself is a violent religon, as other have stated even the old testament and other religious texts of christianity have been extremely violent and oppressive towards others who are different, it is what the individual brings to the religion is what makes it violent or not. Buddhism is not a violent religon at all but there are still rampaging buddhist monks is Myanmar raping and pillaging.

The middle east like Myanmar has been destabilized since the Ottoman Empire fell, and while they were not a beacon of peace, they and islam they were not "terrorists". You have to recognize the external pressures and forces that create these kinds of attitudes, The Ottomans committed horrible atrocities against the Armenians before they fell, the middle east while not in peace was not sending insurgents to slaughter to people on a massive basis before 1950 and the West got extremely invested in the middle east.

Just like the Buddhist militia in Myanmar trying to overthrow a regime, the extremists, and violent people who are Islamic are the ones who are responding to certain pressures with violence, But for the minority we see screaming and acting awful, we ignore millions who are fine

If anything judge people by their actions, not their denominations.

 

[Marvin]

Don't you get it? In social justice land Christians being big meanies about gay marriage is totes the same thing as gang raping toddlers and stoning homosexuals.

Heh, well, personally, I'm more concerned about Christians in the United States. Practically speaking, they're a bigger issue here.

But Muslims are definitely doing some fucked up things in Europe (and elsewhere). And failing to acknowledge it is extremely shitty. I forget who said it, but someone pointed out that feminists who try to make excuses for muslim misogyny are shitty feminists.

So verses from Leviticus are never used as arguments in, say, same-sex marriage?

And how it istreated was not the point, you said "the bible talks in parables and riddles". Well, sometimes, yes, but far from always. Leviticus is one boring set of rules, but there are many more, even in the New Testament.

It's not really an accurate evaluation of Christianity to judge it based on Leviticus, if Christianity doesn't hold Leviticus as actually binding.

Whereas, slavery, for example, is permissible in some contexts in Islam. I don't think that's disputed by most Muslims.

I'm willing to argue in good faith. I'm not saying that every shitty quote taints Islam, if Muslims don't claim it to be binding. But if something is widely accepted as being binding, that's definitely something to criticize.

 

[fuehrer_dessler]

Both the Hebrew Bible, Christian Bible and Quran have some nasty passages, but they are in many cases tempered or even ignored by later tradition (in case of Judaism it's the mishna, gemara and later writings, in case of Islam it's the Hadiths and the Christians have also a wealth of secondary, tertiary and so on liturgic literature). What punks like, say, Salafists (DAESH, al-Qaeda, Saudis) and other Islamists do is just pulling out the tempering and go a coupla centuries back in development (slavery, dhimma and so on).

 

[Holdek]

Your absolutely right culture and religon are very closely tied things, and influence each other greatly, religon is a culture in of itself and is apart of other peoples cultures. That does not mean that Islam in of itself is a violent religon, as other have stated even the old testament and other religious texts of christianity have been extremely violent and oppressive towards others who are different, it is what the individual brings to the religion is what makes it violent or not. Buddhism is not a violent religon at all but there are still rampaging buddhist monks is Myanmar raping and pillaging.

The middle east like Myanmar has been destabilized since the Ottoman Empire fell, and while they were not a beacon of peace, they and islam they were not "terrorists". You have to recognize the external pressures and forces that create these kinds of attitudes, The Ottomans committed horrible atrocities against the Armenians before they fell, the middle east while not in peace was not sending insurgents to slaughter to people on a massive basis before 1950 and the West got extremely invested in the middle east.

Just like the Buddhist militia in Myanmar trying to overthrow a regime, the extremists, and violent people who are Islamic are the ones who are responding to certain pressures with violence, But for the minority we see screaming and acting awful, we ignore millions who are fine

If anything judge people by their actions, not their denominations.

Islam, like Christianity and Judaism did before it, will have to reform itself on a large scale. All religions have their problem areas around the globe, but Islam is a different beast in the scale to which significant portions of its members engage in, or condone, practices that are incompatible with civil society, and the expanse of places where this is happening. The Buddhists are rampaging in Burma, but that's more or less an isolated case. I don't worry about the Buddhists in my city here in the US. Meanwhile 1/3 of young BRITISH Muslims want to live under a Sharia regime where anyone who leaves Islam is put to death. That's something to be concerned about.

 

[MrRenegadeRooster]

Islam, like Christianity and Judaism did before it, will have to reform itself on a large scale. All religions have their problem areas around the globe, but Islam is a different beast in the scale to which significant portions of its members engage in, or condone, practices that are incompatible with civil society, and the expanse of places where this is happening. The Buddhists are rampaging in Burma, but that's more or less an isolated case. I don't worry about the Buddhists in my city here in the US. Meanwhile 1/3 of young BRITISH Muslims want to live under a Sharis regime where anyone who leaves Islam is put to death. That's something to be concerned about.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=IxjBjRnhUqA

I absolutely agree that these practice cannot be condoned, and the religion does need modern reforms, I do not want to make it seem i feel it is above criticism, the new years mobs in Germany and Sweden were unacceptable, and that fact that some priests of Islam blamed the victims is disgusting.

I just disagree with the hate for the religion as a whole, and the bigotry towards it. Anyone who supports and agrees with the Sharis Regime i cant help but feel are probably more than a little bit angsty, a little off topic but were they born in Britain or immigrants?

 

[Holdek]

I just disagree with the hate for the religion as a whole, and the bigotry towards it.

I don't support the idea that bigotry can apply to attitudes toward ideas, and all religions are just collections of ideas.

Anyone who supports and agrees with the Sharis Regime i cant help but feel are probably more than a little bit angsty, a little off topic but were they born in Britain or immigrants?

It's not off-topic; it's actually a pretty important aspect of all this. Most of them are born in Britain and are much more radicalized than their immigrant parents.

 

[MrRenegadeRooster]

I don't support the idea that bigotry can apply to attitudes toward ideas, and all religions are just collections of ideas.



It's not off-topic; it's actually a pretty important aspect of all this. Most of them are born in Britain and are much more radicalized than their immigrant parents.

Bigotry towards people for being in a religion, not the disapprovement of a religion so much, I really hate and disagree with scientology, but don't hate every scientologist i meet.

However I have heard of these young first generation boys mostly, becoming really radical and I cant help but think its the time were in, and so much chaos in the Arab world. My stance on those people is if they want to live in that type of environment, go there. Cant argue that those kids are not idiots.

 

[WhoopieDoo]

Whereas, slavery, for example, is permissible in some contexts in Islam. I don't think that's disputed by most Muslims.

Plenty of slavery in the Bible. If I remember correctly, I believe you can sell someone in slavery if he steals from you but isn't able to pay a fine.

I'm willing to argue in good faith. I'm not saying that every shitty quote taints Islam, if Muslims don't claim it to be binding. But if something is widely accepted as being binding, that's definitely something to criticize.

What is considered "binding" is not exactly universal. Some Christian denominations *do* follow the dietary laws (seventh-day adventist being the most famous), and it's entirely possible that in a hundred years or whatever there are Christian denominations with different outlooks on what laws to follow.

Judaism doesn't have a "new Testament" (the Talmud and such are mostly just explanations and interpretations of the old testament), still follows the dietary laws, but is in general a very "moderate" religion (more so than most Christian denominations). *Shrug* To me, it all seems very arbitrary, almost random, in what believers choose to believe or ignore from their holy books. I certainly don't see a direct and clear link between what's actually written in said holy books and behaviour, both in general as a society, as well as in individuals.

To be clear, I don't mean to say that there's somehow not a problem, or even that "all religions are equal" (as was straw manned onto me earlier), just that I strongly doubt that the actual text of the Qur'an is the source of the problems. Stalin killed millions. Pol pot wiped out 30% of his country's population. Both men were very much atheist. Many other killings have been inspired by non-religious motives, and while religion certainly doesn't help, I am highly critical of calling it "the root of all evil".

 

[AnOminous]

So, the substantial difference I see between Islam and Christianity is that the Koran is super literal about its rules.

The bible talks in parables and riddles. It's up to the reader to interpret what they mean, and two different readers can interpret the same parable in very different ways.

Islam is very explicit. "The punishment for X is Y." or "You can eat X and Y animals, but only if you prepare them in precisely the right way."

This inflexibility is cool when it makes charity mandatory. But it's not very cool when it comes to subjugating women or amputating thieve's hands.

It's entirely possible to be Muslim and sane. It's just not the norm.

I know I shit on Islam a lot, but for instance, when is the last time you heard of a Sufi terrorist?

You never did? Maybe it's because they don't exist.

They're definitely Muslims, though.

 

[Cosmos]

It's entirely possible to be Muslim and sane. It's just not the norm.

I know I shit on Islam a lot, but for instance, when is the last time you heard of a Sufi terrorist?

You never did? Maybe it's because they don't exist.

They're definitely Muslims, though.

Sufis are awesome because they're very spiritual. Whereas Wahhabism/Salafism is NO FUN ALLOWED central, Sufism incorporates singing and dancing into prayer to express joy (by contrast, many Wahhabists claim that both song and dance are sinful and should not be tolerated, especially while praying), is very open and tolerant of other belief systems (in fact, Sufism is greatly influenced by Hinduism, Buddhism, and Christianity), and encourages meditation and reflection as opposed to blind repetition of doctrine. Naturally, this has led to Sufis being horribly oppressed by Wahhabist assholes, who are the same people feeding terrorism.

In other words, we need more Sufis and less Wahhabists. I really do feel like the Sufi model of Islam is what an Islamic reformation should be based on (what with the lack of political ambition, emphasis on personal interpretation/reflection over literalism, and a larger focus on the spiritual aspects of Islam over the worldly [again, politics]), but unfortunately, as long as the Gulf states keep exporting Wahhabism, they'll continue to suppress spiritual and tolerant versions of Islam and replace them with the same doctrines that ISIS, Boko Haram, and Al-Qaeda follow.

 

[AnOminous]

In case you're wondering who Sufis are and why they're interesting, one of my favorite Nasrudin stories. Nasrudin was a prominent Sufi mystic and stories involving him are generally somewhat like Zen koans.

This one has actually influenced my own thinking.

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Sufism/Nasrudin#Nasreddin_and_the_Sultan.27s_Horse

One day, while Nasreddin was visiting the capital city, the Sultan took offense to a joke that was made at his expense. He had Nasreddin immediately arrested and imprisoned; accusing him of heresy and sedition. Nasreddin apologized to the Sultan for his joke, and begged for his life; but the Sultan remained obstinate, and in his anger, sentenced Nasreddin to be beheaded the following day. When Nasreddin was brought out the next morning, he addressed the Sultan, saying "Oh Sultan, live forever! You know me to be a skilled teacher, the greatest in your kingdom. If you will but delay my sentence for one year, I will teach your favorite horse to sing."
The Sultan did not believe that such a thing was possible; but his anger had cooled, and he was amused by the audacity of Nasreddin's claim. "Very well," replied the Sultan, "you will have a year. But if by the end of that year you have not taught my favorite horse to sing, then you will wish you had been beheaded today."

That evening, Nasreddin's friends were allowed to visit him in prison, and found him in unexpected good spirits. "How can you be so happy?" they asked. "Do you really believe that you can teach the Sultan's horse to sing?" "Of course not," replied Nasreddin, "but I now have a year which I did not have yesterday; and much can happen in that time. The Sultan may come to repent of his anger, and release me. He may die in battle or of illness, and it is traditional for a successor to pardon all prisoners upon taking office. He may be overthrown by another faction, and again, it is traditional for prisoners to be released at such a time. Or the horse may die, in which case the Sultan will be obliged to release me."

"Finally," said Nasreddin, "even if none of those things come to pass, perhaps the horse can sing."

---

In the version of this I heard first, he was going to teach the horse to fly.

However, the general optimistic message of this is inescapably joyous.

This is Islam at its best.

 

[MrRenegadeRooster]

In case you're wondering who Sufis are and why they're interesting, one of my favorite Nasrudin stories. Nasrudin was a prominent Sufi mystic and stories involving him are generally somewhat like Zen koans.

This one has actually influenced my own thinking.

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Sufism/Nasrudin#Nasreddin_and_the_Sultan.27s_Horse

One day, while Nasreddin was visiting the capital city, the Sultan took offense to a joke that was made at his expense. He had Nasreddin immediately arrested and imprisoned; accusing him of heresy and sedition. Nasreddin apologized to the Sultan for his joke, and begged for his life; but the Sultan remained obstinate, and in his anger, sentenced Nasreddin to be beheaded the following day. When Nasreddin was brought out the next morning, he addressed the Sultan, saying "Oh Sultan, live forever! You know me to be a skilled teacher, the greatest in your kingdom. If you will but delay my sentence for one year, I will teach your favorite horse to sing."
The Sultan did not believe that such a thing was possible; but his anger had cooled, and he was amused by the audacity of Nasreddin's claim. "Very well," replied the Sultan, "you will have a year. But if by the end of that year you have not taught my favorite horse to sing, then you will wish you had been beheaded today."

That evening, Nasreddin's friends were allowed to visit him in prison, and found him in unexpected good spirits. "How can you be so happy?" they asked. "Do you really believe that you can teach the Sultan's horse to sing?" "Of course not," replied Nasreddin, "but I now have a year which I did not have yesterday; and much can happen in that time. The Sultan may come to repent of his anger, and release me. He may die in battle or of illness, and it is traditional for a successor to pardon all prisoners upon taking office. He may be overthrown by another faction, and again, it is traditional for prisoners to be released at such a time. Or the horse may die, in which case the Sultan will be obliged to release me."

"Finally," said Nasreddin, "even if none of those things come to pass, perhaps the horse can sing."

---

In the version of this I heard first, he was going to teach the horse to fly.

However, the general optimistic message of this is inescapably joyous.

This is Islam at its best.

Actually read about this in my philosophy class freshman year in college, this and stories like this are what i DO admire about the religion, very interesting sect, thanks for sharing! completely forgot about this story

 

[MarineTrainedTard]

Man, my Persian language teacher was a, like, 90-year-old Iranian Sufi and he was the chillest, friendliest motherfucker ever.

One day we were talking about Iran and he went off on the Iranian Government. "They're not Muslims! They're not Persians! They're not even Arabs! I don't know what they are." For some reason I felt like "They're not even Arabs!" is the sickest of burns in this context.

 

[Lefty's Revenge]

Imho I think in any situation a person will use their religious text to justify what they do. There's a lot of other examples of extremist attacks from other religious groups.

Yeah, alot of people seem to forget theres a shit ton of people that died at the hands of Buddhist back in the day too. It happens with every religious belief system even the lack of one as we saw in some communist states.

I don't know about Islam, in a word. As a Christian, I personally don't feel like I could be anti-Muslim immigrant and not feel like a hypocrite. At the same time, because of the teachings of Christianity, I'm not exactly in a rush to defend Islamic beliefs. I don't agree that Islam has no redeeming traits. Virtually all religions do. I also don't know if I agree that all Muslim or mostly Muslim countries are shit holes because Malaysia and Indonesia seem decent at least.

But the more I read up on ISIS and what Islamic experts have to say about it and the more I listen to rhetoric of some of these jackassy politicians here in the US, the more concerned I am that ISIS will spell the end of Islam. Speaking as someone who would probably, mistakenly, get called a bleeding heart liberal by alot of you, the immigrant crisis will do an incredible amount of damage on Europe. Maybe even culturally in some regards. This was probably part of the strategy of ISIS. There goal is to create a zero sum game with all the Muslims vs everyone else in the world. And even if its not ISIS it will be Al-Qaida or the Taliban or someone else.

My fear is that at some point someone will succeed in creating a situation where its every muslim vs everyone else. A tremendous amount of people will die regardless of the outcome and it will probably be the end of the Muslim faith.

 

[fuehrer_dessler]

@Lefty's Revenge ISIS' strategy is to flood Europe with refugees? That sounds too much like a harebrained conspiracy theory.