Islam

[Cosmos]

It does not surprise me the slightest that the Burmese oppose Islam so fiercely, seeing how their fellow ASEAN members are caught in a mire.

I mean, the Burmese treatment of Muslims is really shitty and I don't support it at all, but it makes sense at least. They've seen what happens when formerly Buddhist/Hindu/Christian countries are Islamized and the results aren't pretty. They want to avoid being treated as minorities in their own country. And let's be honest, Muslim nations have a fucking atrocious track record when it comes to religious minorities (inb4 "b-but Muslim nations tolerated Jews and Christians 200 years ago").

I've mentioned it in this thread before, but I really think what makes Islam so poisonous nowadays is its political ambition. If Muslims make up a large enough portion of the population, Islamists and other hardliners start to demand the application of sharia law and the abolishment of the separation between church and state. Countries that are governed by sharia law (or even just incorporate sharia into their laws in some way) are predestined to devolve into utter shitholes because secularism is actually a really good idea.

But whereas most religions are totally fine with not pushing their laws onto everyone (in fact, a key Biblical verse that was used to advocate the separation of church and state was "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's," which basically states that Christians must follow the law of the land), Islam demands to have political power. In fact, Islam states that Muslims cannot be good Muslims if they're governed by manmade laws. Politics and authority are so central to Islam its doubtful we're going to see an end to Islamic theocracies anytime soon.

 

[Alex Krycek]

I kind of observe the phenomena of Islam in a culture by culture basis. A lot of Central Asian Muslims and Tatars had a law distinct from Sharia before their conversion to Islam - The Yassa of Genghis Khan and Islam was heavily syncretized with Tengriism, Buddhism, and later Burkhanism. One of the demands of the Yassa was religious tolerance. Elsewhere no such provision existed and Muslims often spread their religion violently and quickly. Yes in the Levant and Northern Iraq they did often peacefully lord over their subjects, but you had some rulers like Timur (who though he was Central Asian lost faith in the Yassa probably because of his Persian tutors that espoused the Ultra-Conservative Shaafi school in this era) came in and slaughtered all the Christians he could find and reduced the Church of the East from the Church with the largest geographic area, to Northern Iraq, the island of Socotra*, a handful of communities in India, and possibly a few isolated pockets in Mongolia and China. There were many Timurs, throughout history and though his descendants returned to the Mongol rule of religious pluralism, Timur probably has the biggest kill ratio in human history relative to the population he lorded over.

Mind you I kind of think this is a conditioned behavior among Arab Muslims. The Shia Fatimids were extremely tolerant of religious minorities and espousing that very tolerance caused their Sunni subjects to ultimately rise up and overthrow them. Then again though the Shia were never the ones who violently spread their faith unless you count the Qizilbash in Iran/Iraq back in the 16th Century, but arguably that was the result of a religious community tired of constant persecution by Sunni Muslims - a persecution that persists to this very day in places where Shia aren't the majority. In Saudi Arabia Shia have trouble doing virtually anything but being peons their entire lives for example.

That being said, I don't hate Islam as a whole and think it has every right to be practiced. The second any mosque or Imam starts calling for attacks or spouting Anti-Patriotic Propaganda though, measures need to be taken.

*Socotra would go on to conquered by the Mahra Sultunate which espoused a Conservative form of Islam. Christians retreated to the interior of the island and gradually lost all knowledge of Christianity by at least the 19th Century.

 

[MrRenegadeRooster]

I Know this is late, but we should remember that Turkey and Indonesia are incredibly progressive and moderate islamic states. Turkey even having 3 heads of states in the last couple of years.

I do not believe it is a problem with Islam i believe it is a middle east problem. All of the war, uprooting, constant flux of change the destabilization in many of those countries is incredible.

The change needs to be cultural and the actions described in many posts above should be condemned but that does not condemn all of islam either, Im not even religious but all the ignorance in the world is absurd.

However i feel like this video sums up my thoughts and maybe you guys will enjoy it, find it enlightening, or maybe you'll disagree, regardless papa bless

 

[Holdek]

I Know this is late, but we should remember that Turkey and Indonesia are incredibly progressive and moderate islamic states. Turkey even having 3 heads of states in the last couple of years.

I do not believe it is a problem with Islam i believe it is a middle east problem. All of the war, uprooting, constant flux of change the destabilization in many of those countries is incredible.

The change needs to be cultural and the actions described in many posts above should be condemned but that does not condemn all of islam either, Im not even religious but all the ignorance in the world is absurd.

However i feel like this video sums up my thoughts and maybe you guys will enjoy it, find it enlightening, or maybe you'll disagree, regardless papa bless
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Bwdhib-bZ-s

60% of Indonesian Muslims support honor killing (sauce: Pew polling)

Don't buy into Reza Aslan's bullshit. (Fast foward to 8:38 if you want to get to how this weasle lies about Islam).

 

[Ruin]

60% of Indonesian Muslims support honor killing.

Don't buy into Reza Aslan's bullshit. (Fast foward to 8:38 if you want to get to how this weasle lies about Islam). https://youtube.com/watch?v=E9RmAo6XVAA

Basically this. Muslims are only peaceful until they reach a majority of the population. Then the fascist shit comes out in full force.

 

[Doctor Professor Timon]

Basically this. Muslims are only peaceful until they reach a majority of the population. Then the fascist shit comes out in full force.

S'what I said on the first page.

More information for you all!

Taqiyya - Muslims in some sects are allowed to lie about their beliefs in order to preserve their own lives or trick non-Muslims.

And the Quran actually has rules on contradicting verses within itself. The later verse takes the precedent.

So, if you mix these two, what do you get exactly?

 

[MrRenegadeRooster]

60% of Indonesian Muslims support honor killing (sauce: Pew polling)

Don't buy into Reza Aslan's bullshit. (Fast foward to 8:38 if you want to get to how this weasle lies about Islam). https://youtube.com/watch?v=E9RmAo6XVAA

This is very interesting, and i will surely take what Reza says with a grain of salt, I still have a hard time seeing how this is an innately islamic problem and not more of a culture of these places problem.

I just don't think we should let ourselves be scared of any people who thrive on fear, christian, islamic, buddhist, atheist whatever their denomination. Many islamic people in the western world are some of the nicest most level headed people you could meet, you have to keep in mind the conditions of these countries their past, culture, historical views on how society should be run, on woman etc. before you just summarize its an wholly islamic problem.

 

[Philosophy Zombie]

OdinText, a company that analyzes literary text, recently published its textual analysis of the Quran and the Bible in relation to eight major emotions.

The publisher himself admitted that the usefulness of the results is very limited due to the superficiality in using software to quantify whether a text is "violent". This is what NY Magazine had to say about the results

I understand why Anderson and his company would see value in this exercise — and why shouldn’t someone who is an expert at textual analysis, well, analyze important texts? But despite the caveats Anderson littered throughout the piece, it’s inevitable people will use these findings, which have picked up some media coverage, to make whatever point they want to make. That would be a mistake.

The road that leads from the textual content of these holy books to the behavior of human beings in 2016 is long and winding and forks off in a thousand directions. For reasons that are extremely complex or hidden to us entirely, during that journey minor lines have been blown up into dictates of cosmic importance, while entire themes have been relegated to the status of footnotes. Think of a really religious person you know and some rule they find quite important — perhaps one they even organize their life around to a certain point. Then check exactly how much their holy book says about the behavior in question. In many cases, you won’t find all that much.

In other words: There just isn’t a tight, straightforward connection between the quantity of certain sentiments in these books and what people do as a result of them. On a basic level, it doesn’t mean anything, except in the literal sense that software understands meaning, to say the Koran has “five times more love” than the Bible. To think it does is to take the mistake people in the Islam-is-violent camp make — acting like any of this stuff is straightforward or that a quick peek at these texts reveals something meaningful about the behavior of those who believe in them — and then to simply flip it on its head and treat it like a new and important insight.

 

[K>C]

The only Islamic republican regime with any sort of staying power is Iran, the rest like Pakistan or Egypt are the military appealing to the populace with demagogic Islam. Saddam Islamized Iraq in the 90s as a way to stay in power, inviting Zarqawi in the country and giving him a base. Besides honor killings are not just controlling women, they control men as well like if someone dissed you, you have to kick him to maintain your honor.

 

[AnOminous]

This is very interesting, and i will surely take what Reza says with a grain of salt, I still have a hard time seeing how this is an innately islamic problem and not more of a culture of these places problem.

I'm not shy at all about talking shit on Islam or its child molesting founder, but there's nothing inherent in Islam that turns you into an insane criminal.

There are plenty of Muslims in the United States who are no more criminal than Presbyterians. We just have this amazing idea that when people emigrate here, they shouldn't be terrorists and shit.

Is this that radical?

 

[fuehrer_dessler]

The only Islamic republican regime with any sort of staying power is Iran, the rest like Pakistan or Egypt are the military appealing to the populace with demagogic Islam. Saddam Islamized Iraq in the 90s as a way to stay in power, inviting Zarqawi in the country and giving him a base. Besides honor killings are not just controlling women, they control men as well like if someone dissed you, you have to kick him to maintain your honor.

In Iran, it's Revolutionary Guards, who don't directly run the state, but are a force to be reckoned with in Iran.

 

[Marvin]

This is very interesting, and i will surely take what Reza says with a grain of salt, I still have a hard time seeing how this is an innately islamic problem and not more of a culture of these places problem.

I just don't think we should let ourselves be scared of any people who thrive on fear, christian, islamic, buddhist, atheist whatever their denomination. Many islamic people in the western world are some of the nicest most level headed people you could meet, you have to keep in mind the conditions of these countries their past, culture, historical views on how society should be run, on woman etc. before you just summarize its an wholly islamic problem.

So, the substantial difference I see between Islam and Christianity is that the Koran is super literal about its rules.

The bible talks in parables and riddles. It's up to the reader to interpret what they mean, and two different readers can interpret the same parable in very different ways.

Islam is very explicit. "The punishment for X is Y." or "You can eat X and Y animals, but only if you prepare them in precisely the right way."

This inflexibility is cool when it makes charity mandatory. But it's not very cool when it comes to subjugating women or amputating thieve's hands.

I'm not an expert on Islam, and I don't know how significant this inflexibility is in practice. I would imagine that most muslims can integrate with western democracies easily enough. But I would also imagine that muslims have to work harder to resolve conflicts between what the Koran says and modern liberal values. Like, it's probably easier for a muslim growing up in a ghetto to become radicalized and blow stuff up, compared to non-muslims that grow up in ghettos. They just turn to ordinary, non-religious crime.

Edit: Or, not just the Koran. Just Islamic jurisprudence in general.

 

[K>C]

Most of the Sharia comes from the Hadith and how to interpret them, think of the Hadith as similar with the Talmud, now a big issue in Islam is how to interpret said Hadiths.

 

[Holdek]

This is very interesting, and i will surely take what Reza says with a grain of salt, I still have a hard time seeing how this is an innately islamic problem and not more of a culture of these places problem.

I just don't think we should let ourselves be scared of any people who thrive on fear, christian, islamic, buddhist, atheist whatever their denomination. Many islamic people in the western world are some of the nicest most level headed people you could meet, you have to keep in mind the conditions of these countries their past, culture, historical views on how society should be run, on woman etc. before you just summarize its an wholly islamic problem.

Sure, but religion is a part of culture. Islamic values inform the general culture moreso than the other way around because of how fundamentalist it still is.

Islam hasn't been subject to the modernizing pressures of a Renaissance or Enlightenment (well, it was, but the Golden Age of Islam was relatively short-lived and stamped out pretty thoroughly).

 

[WhoopieDoo]

The bible talks in parables and riddles. It's up to the reader to interpret what they mean, and two different readers can interpret the same parable in very different ways.

Islam is very explicit. "The punishment for X is Y." or "You can eat X and Y animals, but only if you prepare them in precisely the right way."

It almost sounds like you never even read either the Bible or the Qur'an. Go read the book of Leviticus and come back and tell me again how the Bible is not "very explicit". Specifically, you example of dietary laws is just stupid, as they're almost a direct copy from the Bible (as is, by the way, much of the Qur'an).

Islam hasn't been subject to the modernizing pressures of a Renaissance or Enlightenment (well, it was, but the Golden Age of Islam was relatively short-lived and stamped out pretty thoroughly).

Much of the current bullshit and nonsense in Christianity is borne from the reformation; which occurred pretty much during the renaissance. Remember, the Catholic church recognizes evolution, the big bang (which was first described by a Catholic priest), and so forth. All the Young Earth Creationism and "Evolution leads to cannibalistic Nazis" etc. is all a protestant thing. This is why it's so much more prevalent in the states, which is where all the protestants went leaving the Catholic in the old country.

The point is, things can move forwards, and things can move backwards. They can also move in both ways at the same time and sideways and sometimes even diagonally.

 

[Marvin]

It almost sounds like you never even read either the Bible or the Qur'an. Go read the book of Leviticus and come back and tell me again how the Bible is not "very explicit". Specifically, you example of dietary laws is just stupid, as they're almost a direct copy from the Bible (as is, by the way, much of the Qur'an).

Leviticus is not treated as binding by most Christians.

 

[Ruin]

Leviticus is not treated as binding by most Christians.

Don't you get it? In social justice land Christians being big meanies about gay marriage is totes the same thing as gang raping toddlers and stoning homosexuals.

 

[WhoopieDoo]

Leviticus is not treated as binding by most Christians.

So verses from Leviticus are never used as arguments in, say, same-sex marriage?

And how it istreated was not the point, you said "the bible talks in parables and riddles". Well, sometimes, yes, but far from always. Leviticus is one boring set of rules, but there are many more, even in the New Testament.

 

[WhoopieDoo]

Don't you get it? In social justice land Christians being big meanies about gay marriage is totes the same thing as gang raping toddlers and stoning homosexuals.

That is one of the most profoundly stupid and dishonest straw mans I have seen in my life. The discussion is about the writing style of holy books and how that may or may not affect people's beliefs.

 

[Ruin]

That is one of the most profoundly stupid and dishonest straw mans I have seen in my life. The discussion is about the writing style of holy books and how that may or may not affect people's beliefs.

With all due respect who gives a damn? Do Christians believe some wacky thing? Yes absolutely, but adherents of Christian and Jewish theology aren't causing massive amounts of death and destruction around the globe like Islam is.