Islam

[Cosmos]

The UN is a joke.

The UN is basically the substitute teacher who just meekly stands at the front of the room and says things like "settle down" and "please be quiet," except that they sound more like suggestions than actual orders. And because they don't have much authority or even the will to be assertive, all of the troublemakers (read: Saudi Arabia and other shitshow countries) just keep fucking around and disrupting the class (read: the world).

As soon as fossil fuels become obsolete, Saudi Arabia will become irrelevant.
All the more reasons to switch to green energy, huh?

I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to that day. Not only because of how much it will save the environment, but because it will severely weaken all of the oil-rich countries that are allowed to get away with whatever they want. Also, Saudi Arabia has basically no sustainable infrastructure, especially in regards to people; Saudis, for the most part, have extremely limited skill sets. There are very few Saudi laborers (most Saudis in fact look down on manual labor and refuse to do it) because they just import manual laborers from poor South Asian/African countries and domestic workers from the Philippines. But there also aren't a ton of Saudis in high positions (such as doctors, pilots, scientists, etc) because they just pay Europeans and Americans tons of money to come to Saudi Arabia and work for them.

Saudi Arabia also has no other products it can sell. Oil (and Wahhabi Islam) are basically it. But the Royal Family seems to be under the impression that their oil reserves are endless so they can just keep burning money and importing everything they need without actually trying to work out a sustainable infrastructure. Reading about how much money and resources the Royal Family wastes (there are an estimated 20,000 members, btw, and all the princes just get handed money for being born who they are) is enough to make anyone's stomach twist. And that's before we even consider the devastating effects Wahhabism has had on the world. That's why I can't wait until Saudi Arabia either taps out their oil supplies or becomes irrelevant when better energy sources are discovered. They have absolutely no plans in place for when that happens, and seeing the fallout will be interesting to say the least.

 

[MrTroll]

I grew up as a pagan bisexual in rural Alabama. Think about that for a second.

I've lost track of the fights I've been in.

Bigots in rural Alabama: bully, pick on, socially ostracize people who don't look and act like them.

Bigots in rural Afghanistan: publicly stone and lynch suspected homosexuals, throw acid on little girls who attend school, mutilate women's genitals, etc.

All I'm saying is try to have a little perspective. It's just silly to pretend, even facetiously, that some of the worst people in existence could be preferable to your dumb southern jock tormentors. Any gay or bisexual man in a place like Pakistan (or even one of the "civilized" Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia) would probably consider the rural American south as a wonderland of tolerance compared to what they know.

 

[Datiko]

Islam seems complicated to say the least, I will admit most of what I know about the religion, is gathered from what I have read of the Quran, and from news reports. I think just reading the Quran, as a westerner, doesn't tell one everything about Islamic thought.

Of course and this is why Islam/Muslims are so fiercely protected by modern progressives. Most people only see "good" Muslims because they live in a country where there are so few of them. Less than 2% of the US and 7% of Europe are Muslims. The people you meet in those places are the outlier. The Muslims of the middle east, africa, and SE asia are the "real muslims". People seem to forget that the only reasonable countries that are predominantly Muslim had leaders like Ataturk who forced a secular society or were made secular as a condition of independence.

Malaysia is a good example. I have a friend who is chill as fuck. We play tabletop games, go watch movies, etc. He is like every other friend I had. Bring up religion and he becomes an absolute monster. He agrees with laws preventing the use of Allah for other religions, he went to Low Yat complex, and he put on his red bandanna to go protest against racial equality and meritocracy because he feels that "non-Muslims have a responsibility to prop up Malaysia but it is Muslims who must rule". That is the mentality you get when there are enough Muslims to actually influence anything.

 

[Billy of Hills]

Spoiler: Melodramatic, lengthy sperging

Islam is the largest singular threat facing the world today. Islam is an ideology masked in religion and culture which revolves around rigidity, authoritarianism, extreme punishment, persecution of minorities/women, and pleasing the sensibilities of insane dictators among other such unjust and cruel ideas.
Islam is far from the only ideology which promotes this, so why is it a threat? It spreads aggressively. Killing and raping those who dissent, exporting adherents and missionaries, encouraging a very high birthrate, so on and so forth.
Islam also works very efficiently as Islam exploits our psychology. Islam encourages a herd mentality in which all conform or are singled out and punished harshly. If this herd mentality weren't enough to justify such cruelty, religion factors in. God wants you to rape infidels, God wants you to execute atheists, God wants you to obey the Prophet's every word and carry out his will. Among Muslims, a "melting-pot" is encouraged so that Islam becomes the focal point of one's identity, rather than other factors such as nationality. This doesn't really work in practice, though.
Of course, it is important to remember that not all "Muslims" adhere to these tenets or behave like this. Those very westernized Muslims who act normally, are really Muslims in name only. They follow a religion derived from Islam. The same goes for those Muslims in the Islamic world who are lax in their adherence to Islam, those who are relatively normal.
The tenets and spread of Islam are called by many names, but ignored by most who would rather believe that those poor, oppressed Muslims can do no wrong and everything is the fault of us evil privileged Westerners. It's destructive self loathing encouraged by a media which cares only for clicks, views and sales but not for morals.
So, what is the solution? It is hard to say. In an ideal world, Islam would fade out or become moderate gradually and without violence. Realistically, the path to a reasonable world will be a treacherous one. In North America and Europe, we can either pursue Islam, avoid Islam, or submit to Islam. One addresses the problem with great costs, another hopes it should fade away, and another is capitulation; admitting it's a hopeless fight and taking the easy way out at your own expense.
If I were a world leader, I would do that which perhaps isn't entirely ethical but which would be highly effective at little expense to my own nation. I would play Islam against itself. Shi'ite vs. Sunni, tribe vs. tribe, class vs. class, so on and so forth. I would also encourage others to join in this effort. North America, Oriental Asia, India, Europe and Eurasia, Sub-Saharan Africa and South America could theoretically all find a common ground in that they are threatened by this external enemy force.

tl;dr - Islam is bad, everyone should hate Islam, @Billy of Hills is an autist who cares way too much

 

[Abethedemon]

I like Islamic architecture

Spoiler

 

[Wallace]

Already Saudi Arabia is feeling the sting of the plunging value of oil. I don't think the Saudis are going to take the enforced dose of austerity gently.

 

[Cosmos]

Already Saudi Arabia is feeling the sting of the plunging value of oil. I don't think the Saudis are going to take the enforced dose of austerity gently.

Thank God, it's about time. I'm so sick of seeing Western countries and the UN kiss Saudi Arabia's ass and call it a great ally when in reality it's the complete antithesis of what a Western democracy stands for. Plus, its role in financing and spreading terrorism and Islamic extremism cannot be overstated.

EDIT: Holy shit, read this article.

Last year alone there were 151 executions in Saudi Arabia, the highest number in 20 years. About half died for non-violent offences, and about half were foreigners. This year began on an even bloodier note, with 47 executions on Jan. 2, including that of a prominent Shia cleric who had spoken against the royal family.

One is that many of those put to death are foreigners (mostly poor migrant workers); another is that it executes people for "crimes" (like adultery or even sorcery) that are not considered offences in other countries; and the third is that its punishments — beheading, whipping, crucifying and stoning — are so shocking to Western sensibilities.

These actions make it difficult for Western allies to defend the kingdom, particularly because similar punishments are often cited as part of the justification for waging war on groups like ISIS and the Taliban.

And yet Saudi Arabia also appears uniquely impervious to outside pressure to change its ways, which are rooted in religion.

"Saudi Arabia has always been a very difficult country to push human rights change in," says Neve. "It's very resistant to external pressure, and it's been ruthless in crushing internal reform efforts."

One of the West's leading experts on the country, Gregory Gause, the head of the international affairs department at Texas A&M University, agrees that the Saudis are not feeling the heat.

"The more power a country has in the international system, the less they have to worry about human rights reports," he says. "And the Saudis have leverage because of oil."

But Gause says there is one area where the Saudis are very touchy, and that may have influenced the methods it used in the recent mass execution.

"They're extremely sensitive to the comparison to the Islamic State. Not many of the 47 were beheaded. Most of them were stood up in front of firing squads," a decision, Gause says, that was "probably" influenced by a desire to differentiate the kingdom from the self-declared Islamic State.

The ulama, the Saudi religious establishment, insists that no codified law is required because all that needs to be said about law and punishment can be found in the Qur'an and the Sunnah, the oral tenets of Islam that have been handed down over the centuries.

Consequently, Islamic court judges are free to improvise charges such as "predicting the future," "breaking allegiance with the ruler" or, in the case of the recently executed Shia cleric, "seeking foreign meddling."

Those charges are typically linked back to a broader category of offence that appears in the Qur'an.

Islam has no established clergy, and yet senior religious figures can issue edicts or fatwas that have legal force in Saudi Arabia. Among them are about 700 qadis or religious justices who can decide individual cases.

These judges are known for their conservative world views. In 2008, for example, one of the most influential of these Saudi qadis issued a fatwa against Mickey Mouse, warning that mice and other rodents were "soldiers of Satan." Other Saudi fatwas ban Pokemon cards, Barbie dolls, marking Valentine's Day or bringing flowers to a sick person in hospital.

The last grand mufti, Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah bin Baz, issued a fatwa that the sun rotated around the Earth, deeming it "lawful to kill whoever claims that the sun is static." Bin Baz only changed his mind in 1985 after Saudi Prince Sultan bin Salman went into space on the shuttle Discovery and returned to Earth to say that he had seen the planet rotating.

The prince also succeeded in persuading Bin Baz to drop his long-standing insistence that the world was flat.

The practices that shock Westerners, including the public beheadings and the public display of bodies all seem likely to continue. Advocates of more democracy will remain targets.

THE SAUDIS ARE OUR BEST FRIENDS, GUYS

 

[K>C]

The thing is with Saudi Arabia, the Saud monarchy is relatively liberal compared to the populace. IIRC when their king tried to legalize driving for women, the reaction was so bad he backtracked on it. The only two feasible options for a post Saud Arabia, is an overthrow from Saudis who think the House of Saud are western cucks or God forbid an Iranian takeover who would make the region implode.

 

[KatsuKitty]

Spoiler: Melodramatic, lengthy sperging

Islam is the largest singular threat facing the world today. Islam is an ideology masked in religion and culture which revolves around rigidity, authoritarianism, extreme punishment, persecution of minorities/women, and pleasing the sensibilities of insane dictators among other such unjust and cruel ideas.
Islam is far from the only ideology which promotes this, so why is it a threat? It spreads aggressively. Killing and raping those who dissent, exporting adherents and missionaries, encouraging a very high birthrate, so on and so forth.
Islam also works very efficiently as Islam exploits our psychology. Islam encourages a herd mentality in which all conform or are singled out and punished harshly. If this herd mentality weren't enough to justify such cruelty, religion factors in. God wants you to rape infidels, God wants you to execute atheists, God wants you to obey the Prophet's every word and carry out his will. Among Muslims, a "melting-pot" is encouraged so that Islam becomes the focal point of one's identity, rather than other factors such as nationality. This doesn't really work in practice, though.
Of course, it is important to remember that not all "Muslims" adhere to these tenets or behave like this. Those very westernized Muslims who act normally, are really Muslims in name only. They follow a religion derived from Islam. The same goes for those Muslims in the Islamic world who are lax in their adherence to Islam, those who are relatively normal.
The tenets and spread of Islam are called by many names, but ignored by most who would rather believe that those poor, oppressed Muslims can do no wrong and everything is the fault of us evil privileged Westerners. It's destructive self loathing encouraged by a media which cares only for clicks, views and sales but not for morals.
So, what is the solution? It is hard to say. In an ideal world, Islam would fade out or become moderate gradually and without violence. Realistically, the path to a reasonable world will be a treacherous one. In North America and Europe, we can either pursue Islam, avoid Islam, or submit to Islam. One addresses the problem with great costs, another hopes it should fade away, and another is capitulation; admitting it's a hopeless fight and taking the easy way out at your own expense.
If I were a world leader, I would do that which perhaps isn't entirely ethical but which would be highly effective at little expense to my own nation. I would play Islam against itself. Shi'ite vs. Sunni, tribe vs. tribe, class vs. class, so on and so forth. I would also encourage others to join in this effort. North America, Oriental Asia, India, Europe and Eurasia, Sub-Saharan Africa and South America could theoretically all find a common ground in that they are threatened by this external enemy force.

tl;dr - Islam is bad, everyone should hate Islam, @Billy of Hills is an autist who cares way too much

I'm going to doubt the notion that Islam is "the largest singular threat" facing the world today. I would argue that religiosity in general is a problem, but be aware that Islam is number 2 only to irreligion as the fast growing belief system. Overall, the world is becoming less superstitious.

 

[MarineTrainedTard]

Yeah, the problem the Saudis have is they have to sort of walk a fine line between making gestures to appease reformers and throw shitloads of money at the populace, lest the people get angry and attempt to overthrow the royal family, while at the same time appease the insane hard-liner fanatics, lest the fanatics get angry and attempt to overthrow the royal family.

Since what they want most is to retain their wealth and power, this is going to be Saudi Arabia for a while, though all of the current king's brothers, who are next in line for the throne, are very old. When all of them are dead there's a good chance it's going to be a fucking shitshow as the various princes' many, many, many sons struggle for the throne.

 

[Asandy31]

From what I've seen here, a lot of people are opposed to Muslim immigrants. I don't know much about this ideology. All of the Muslims I have met have seemed moderate.
Why is there such opposition to muslim immigration in Europe? Is Islam really a problem or is it just like any other religion?

Yes, they seem to be moderate, but I've heard so many horror stories from a female friend of mine who used to work as an "assimilator" about how they stalked and harassed the hell out of her to the point she had to get a restraining order, and I heard these stories way before this was becoming a big issue. A Syrian student also appeared on our local Television station, he had all Fs and Ds, a few Bs and claimed that a community college discriminated against him for being Syrian, and how he was going to be a doctor, then he went on a horrible tirade about how the male instructor responsible for this was inept because he worked with a bunch of "Fat Black and White Women"

I take the same stance on illegal immigration, if there's even a chance that 10 to 100 might be killed, raped, or beaten, I say close the doors NOW, it's just common sense. Liberal idiots want to bring people who have contributed and contribute to nothing into countries that may not be here in 50 to 100 years because said people were allowed in.....

Spoiler: 1+1 still = 2

 

[Doctor Professor Timon]

Rate me down all you want, but I found an interview with the former Green Beret who's an MMA fighter getting death threats from ISIS. Alex Jones got to interview him.

He goes on later to give his views on Islam, having experienced it first hand in the Middle East - the areas where the United States are at war in. It's near the end of the video. He goes on well to explain terrorist / islamic mindsets that he's seen in his thirteen years of service. He also explains what's going on with immigration as well.

There's a full hour interview with the guy (42 minutes). I'll link it if people want it. He goes on to explain even more in that.

 

[Functional Animal]

Rate me down all you want, but I found an interview with the former Green Beret who's an MMA fighter getting death threats from ISIS. Alex Jones got to interview him.

He goes on later to give his views on Islam, having experienced it first hand in the Middle East - the areas where the United States are at war in. It's near the end of the video. He goes on well to explain terrorist / islamic mindsets that he's seen in his thirteen years of service. He also explains what's going on with immigration as well.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=PINMdYFCAxw
There's a full hour interview with the guy (42 minutes). I'll link it if people want it. He goes on to explain even more in that.

I'd love to see the full video, as much as Alex Jones tends to taint things with his insanity it seems like it'd be interesting. Also, is Alex Jones seriously selling his own brand of water filter now?

 

[Doctor Professor Timon]

I'd love to see the full video, as much as Alex Jones tends to taint things with his insanity it seems like it'd be interesting. Also, is Alex Jones seriously selling his own brand of water filter now?

He's sold that for years - a lot of years.

 

[KingGeedorah]

He's sold that for years - a lot of years.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=yQ3SbZ5v7Zo

Yeah totally not a plug for this guy selling his merch from Ranger Up.

Ranger Up seems like a legit store, but Ranger Up is getting threats and Ranger Up needs stand its ground. Ranger Up promoting American Freedoms.

Ranger Up.

 

[DirkBloodStormKing]

Well, to bring some humour to this discussion, I will present to you this video that pretty much summarizes how much of a misogynistic shithole Saudi Arabia is.

On a more serious note, Islam really does need a reformation like Christianity had a few hundred years ago.

 

[Doctor Professor Timon]

Something I think may be related and something I foresee for a lot of other European countries.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/01/18/the-...ch-president-declares-economic-emergency.html

"
PARIS (AP) — French President Francois Hollande pledged Monday to redefine France's business model and declared what he called "a state of economic and social emergency," unveiling a 2-billion-euro ($2.2 billion) plan to revive hiring and catch up with a fast-moving world economy.

The measures he proposed, however, are relatively modest, and he said they would not "put into question" the 35-hour workweek. With his country under a state of emergency since extremist attacks in November, Hollande did not seek to assume any new emergency powers over the economy.

In an annual speech to business leaders, Hollande laid out plans for training half a million jobless workers, greater use of apprenticeships, and aid for companies that hire young workers.

"
I'm willing to bet most native citizens aren't going to see much hiring. I've been hearing news that employment rates aren't very good in Britain, France, Germany, and Spain. Any Kiwis from those areas that can confirm or is it just fear mongering by the U.S. Press? A lot of welfare (for immigrants), with less jobs to support it can't be good news.

 

[Cosmos]

I'm just gonna rant a bit, don't mind me.

I've noticed that a lot of Muslims just cannot handle criticism of Islam. Almost every time there's an article that's even remotely critical of Islam, there are people in the comment sections parroting any of the following phrases or concepts:

Spoiler: Shit Muslims say

• "Christians kill too," "but what about the Crusades," "Christians have killed more people than Muslims," etc. They constantly try to deflect blame onto other religions (Christianity being the biggest example) but ignore the fact that the biggest Christian atrocities happened hundreds of years ago and there is no religious terrorism in the world today that comes even close to Islamic extremism.
• Accusing people of cherrypicking violent verses in the Quran and Hadith or accusing them of taking things "out of context." Maybe they should be telling that to the terrorists and extremists who gleefully abide by those same verses?
• Another common excuse is "You must know Arabic to understand the Quran." If Islam truly is the perfect, universal religion, than Allah would not have dictated its contents in a language that is untranslatable.
• "Muslims are only meant to fight in self-defense" Except that Muhammad himself conducted dozens of raids on pagan Arab tribes, Christians, and Jews for the sole purposes of spreading Islam (through violent means, obviously) and looting villages to fund further jihad.
• "Those aren't true Muslims" By Muslim ideology itself, a Muslim is just someone who believes Allah is the only God and Muhammad is His messenger. ISIS are Muslims. Al-Qaeda are Muslims. Boko Haram are Muslims. That doesn't mean that all Muslims are terrorists, of course, but it's very disingenuous to pretend that terrorists aren't following Islamic ideology because they are.
• "Islamaphobes/Islamophobia..." The concept of Islamaphobia doesn't even mean anything anymore. Moreover, criticizing an ideology is not and will never be racist.
• "'Islam' means 'peace'" Actually, Islam means "submission." More specifically, it means submission to Allah and Muslim practices or submission to Islamic rule.
  
• "Those violent Muslims are a small minority, and they don’t represent real Islam." Except that quite large percentages of Muslims hold extremist views even if they don't act upon them.
• "Islamic civilization is responsible for blah blah blah" I won't deny the impact the Islamic Golden Age had on civilization, but what irritates me is that Muslim apologists have a bad habit of (1) acting like Muslims were responsible for all the achievements in the West (some apologists actually claim that without Islam the West wouldn't have found democracy... yeah, right) or (2) constantly bringing up achievements from literally hundreds of years ago because the Muslim world has made very few contributions to our knowledge base in recent years. The fact that they constantly have to point to such old accomplishments really demonstrates how far the Islamic world has fallen behind.
• "It's the West's fault that the Muslim world has lagged so far behind" Except that I'm pretty sure homegrown Islamic extremists are who are holding everyone back by insisting on living in the stone ages.
• "Islam is tolerant of other religions," "religious minorities have always flourished under Islam." This one angers me so much I'm just going to link to this explanation instead.
• "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said that..." Muhammad wasn't a very nice person, I wouldn't be quoting him to try to dispel arguments.

I just stopped here because I tired of recalling all this bullshit. I am so weary of all the excuses made for Islam, both by Muslim and non-Muslim apologists alike. Islam will never reform and advance until Muslims can stop being so fucking defensive and resistant to criticism. Islam is not perfect (contrary to what Muslims say) and it is in desperate need of a reformation.

And Christians have done some horrible shit, but at least many Christians are willing to own up to atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. And at least those atrocities really didn't represent what Christianity is about; Jesus was a peace-loving hippie who forgave the people who tortured and murdered him and lived as a poor carpenter. Muhammad was a warlord, often lashed out at the people who criticized him, looted and raided defenseless settlements, forced people to either join his new religion or pay him a tribute tax, and said Muslim masters are entitled to rape their female slaves (as well as being a slave trader himself). In other words, it's pretty easy for Islamic extremists to find excuses for their behavior. Their role model offered a lot of them.

 

[Asuka]

Two things:

• I agree with Cosmos in that I really hate how Western countries only tolerate Saudi Arabia because of their black gold. Seriously, if that shit wasn't there right now we would have finished this fight a long time ago. I've noticed that the extremists use this to their advantage: the Middle East hated the shit out of the Soviets and were so afraid of their reign, so when the West showed up and said "Hey dudes, we can establish democracy here so you won't succumb to awful Communism!" you could see the strings being put into place. Although Muslims didn't like that notion, they used our world police stance as our own downfall: we gave them weapons, propaganda that spread corruption and greed, and put in rulers that only were puppets to our Western ideals which gave conservative Muslims reason to repel and have such bloody revolutions. Ever notice how groups such as al-Qaeda and ISIS plan attacks on the allies who helped them fight off the Soviets, but never dare attack (or at least plan large scale attacks) on countries such as Russia or China? That's because they view us as soft and suckers (you don't want to make fucking Putin mad, haha). As long as we keep asspatting them for oil, they have the leverage to do whatever the fuck they want and spread more radicalist thought. Makes you wonder if we took an isolation standpoint after WWII if the '93 WTC bombing or 9/11 would still occur.

• I'm sorry, but when Muslims try to say that their religion is "of peace" I just roll my eyes. I'm an atheist myself so I don't take to kindly to organized religion, but if the Islamic faith is all about trying to convert "infidels" to their own ideals it just makes me think of them as self-entitled crybabies who fight for something they don't even know exists or not. Extremists/terrorists dying in the name of God is a disgusting excuse.

 

[Roosechu]

Malaysia is a good example. I have a friend who is chill as fuck. We play tabletop games, go watch movies, etc. He is like every other friend I had. Bring up religion and he becomes an absolute monster. He agrees with laws preventing the use of Allah for other religions, he went to Low Yat complex, and he put on his red bandanna to go protest against racial equality and meritocracy because he feels that "non-Muslims have a responsibility to prop up Malaysia but it is Muslims who must rule". That is the mentality you get when there are enough Muslims to actually influence anything.

Malaysia and, on a lesser note, Indonesia are ripe for an islamist takeover.

The first has a draconian judicial system, and muslim courts have the same authority and span of action as normal ones (more, actually, since muslim courts can issue the beating of a woman too).

Indonesia suffers from overextension and the farther you go from Jakarta, the more people are let to themselves, and stuff like the Poso religion wars happen (Poso city was Christian once, but attack after attack, the tables turned).
To make the situation worse, the westernmost province of Indonesia, Banda Aceh, is authorized to use sharia law, because the government isn't man enough to crush the rebels (who are probably backed by the Saudi).

It does not surprise me the slightest that the Burmese oppose Islam so fiercely, seeing how their fellow ASEAN members are caught in a mire.