Islam

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Most of the Muslims I have met in my country are very nice, very polite people. They really do appreciate you and your service. I complimented a woman on her hijab once and she was surprised that I even knew the proper name for it, I could tell she was thankful.
Muslims really do get discriminated against. I went to a Christian university and we did a lot of outreach, we did a Muslim awareness day with a group of Muslims and wore head coverings to see how people treated us differently and they really did. We got looks, whispers, stares, it was actually kind of sad. I noticed a decline in smiles and service, people were actually wary of us.
I don't want to view Muslims as enemies, I view them as brothers and sisters in faith. They too believe in a god, just different from mine and I can respect that. I admire their devotion but I can't get behind a lot of what they believe in because I've studied it and the history behind it. While Christians are allowed to do exegesis and examine the passages more thoroughly and question it, Muslims are not and are told to blatantly accept it.
 
Kitlen said:
Most of the Muslims I have met in my country are very nice, very polite people. They really do appreciate you and your service. I complimented a woman on her hijab once and she was surprised that I even knew the proper name for it, I could tell she was thankful.
Muslims really do get discriminated against. I went to a Christian university and we did a lot of outreach, we did a Muslim awareness day with a group of Muslims and wore head coverings to see how people treated us differently and they really did. We got looks, whispers, stares, it was actually kind of sad. I noticed a decline in smiles and service, people were actually wary of us.
I don't want to view Muslims as enemies, I view them as brothers and sisters in faith. They too believe in a god, just different from mine and I can respect that. I admire their devotion but I can't get behind a lot of what they believe in because I've studied it and the history behind it. While Christians are allowed to do exegesis and examine the passages more thoroughly and question it, Muslims are not and are told to blatantly accept it.
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Although it's really the same case with Jews and Christians, there is a lot of inexcusable shit in the Quran. So it's not Muslims I have a beef with, so much as their actual heritage, traditions, and beliefs, many of which are rooted in a legacy of violence and intolerance.

This is one thing the extremists have correct: you're not a true Muslim unless you do exactly what they are doing. That is Islam. ISIS is the truest, purest form of Islam, and that's exactly the problem. The "moderate", everyday Muslims you see arguably are not really following Islam, which is why I don't have a problem with them.
 
Kitlen said:
Most of the Muslims I have met in my country are very nice, very polite people. They really do appreciate you and your service. I complimented a woman on her hijab once and she was surprised that I even knew the proper name for it, I could tell she was thankful.
Muslims really do get discriminated against. I went to a Christian university and we did a lot of outreach, we did a Muslim awareness day with a group of Muslims and wore head coverings to see how people treated us differently and they really did. We got looks, whispers, stares, it was actually kind of sad. I noticed a decline in smiles and service, people were actually wary of us.
I don't want to view Muslims as enemies, I view them as brothers and sisters in faith. They too believe in a god, just different from mine and I can respect that. I admire their devotion but I can't get behind a lot of what they believe in because I've studied it and the history behind it. While Christians are allowed to do exegesis and examine the passages more thoroughly and question it, Muslims are not and are told to blatantly accept it.
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Honestly, I'm the exact same way. I've been criticizing Islam in this thread but that's all I'm criticizing; Muslims themselves are for the most part no different from everyone here. They just want to live and be happy like the rest of us and shouldn't be automatically judged for the faith they follow.

It's extremely important to differentiate between Islam and Muslims when discussing topics like this. There's a huge difference between criticizing Islamic ideology/tradition/beliefs/etc and generalizing over a billion people as violent, warmongering terrorists. I don't think I'll ever be able to respect and defend Islam, but I'll sure as hell respect and defend Muslims who just want to live peacefully like the rest of us.
 
KatsuKitty said:
The "moderate", everyday Muslims you see arguably are not really following Islam, which is why I don't have a problem with them.
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So what? Define that as Islam and people who would never agree not to be Muslims will act like that instead of acting insane.
 
KatsuKitty said:
This is one thing the extremists have correct: you're not a true Muslim unless you do exactly what they are doing. That is Islam. ISIS is the truest, purest form of Islam, and that's exactly the problem. The "moderate", everyday Muslims you see arguably are not really following Islam, which is why I don't have a problem with them.
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But every religion picks and chooses bits of their holy book to follow. Christians don't follow 99% of the batshit crazy rules in the Old Testament, but no one ever says "oh, they aren't real Christians."
 
Skeealator said:
But every religion picks and chooses bits of their holy book to follow. Christians don't follow 99% of the batshit crazy rules in the Old Testament, but no one ever says "oh, they aren't real Christians."
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Arguably, they aren't, and that's good because if they were they'd be just as bad as true believers of Islam.

The very traditions themselves are the problem; they are as intolerable and indefensible as Mein Kampf, yet only survive on the back of "tolerance". I'm not in favour of banning hate speech, but a compelling case can be made to classify religious text as hate speech because of their advocacy of putting gays and people of other faiths to death. How is it any different than a contemporary piece of intolerance?
 
The "moderate" Muslims do have a religious basis for their more tolerant views. The Hadith, the vast body of very nuanced literary and legal interpretation of the Quran compiled by Islamic scholars over the centuries, significantly moderates the Quran in the same fashion that the New Testament (with its loving, caring god) moderates the Old Testament (with its angry wrathful god). The "moderate" Muslims consult the Hadith for most of their real-world applications of religious strictures.

The extremists just conveniently cast aside those 14 centuries of humanistic interpretation and commentaries on the Quran and interpret the text literally in its basest, most violent form.
 
KatsuKitty said:
Arguably, they aren't, and that's good because if they were they'd be just as bad as true believers of Islam.

The very traditions themselves are the problem; they are as intolerable and indefensible as Mein Kampf, yet only survive on the back of "tolerance". I'm not in favour of banning hate speech, but a compelling case can be made to classify religious text as hate speech because of their advocacy of putting gays and people of other faiths to death. How is it any different than a contemporary piece of intolerance?
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The weight and comfort of History, Tradition, and Group Identification prevent us as a society from honestly looking at the Bible with the same critical eye. A passage like Hosea 13:16 is dismissed as being simply part of the Old Testament, not something that matters anymore, etc. It's easier to sweep it under the rug than to accept it and work through the ramifications.
 
I think Islam is a very interesting religion. I find sufistic practices to be fascinating, and a lot of Islam is quite pro-science. That being said, I am not a muslim (too monotheistic) and I feel like it's being used as an excuse to perpetrate horrible crimes.
*braces self for Islamic Content ratings*
 
millais said:
The "moderate" Muslims do have a religious basis for their more tolerant views. The Hadith, the vast body of very nuanced literary and legal interpretation of the Quran compiled by Islamic scholars over the centuries, significantly moderates the Quran in the same fashion that the New Testament (with its loving, caring god) moderates the Old Testament (with its angry wrathful god). The "moderate" Muslims consult the Hadith for most of their real-world applications of religious strictures.

The extremists just conveniently cast aside those 14 centuries of humanistic interpretation and commentaries on the Quran and interpret the text literally in its basest, most violent form.
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This is actually quite true. A lot of belief surrounding sexuality and such is similar to that of the typical Southern Protestant. For example, being a homosexual is not necessarily haram, however homosexual activities are. Having feelings and such is acceptable but they need to be suppressed. If you look at our society, many states still have old sodomy laws on the books. One thing to consider is that the religion and tenets are more of a vehicle for extremist behavior, and when people have nothing, any vehicle can rive them to kill.
 
millais said:
The "moderate" Muslims do have a religious basis for their more tolerant views. The Hadith, the vast body of very nuanced literary and legal interpretation of the Quran compiled by Islamic scholars over the centuries, significantly moderates the Quran in the same fashion that the New Testament (with its loving, caring god) moderates the Old Testament (with its angry wrathful god). The "moderate" Muslims consult the Hadith for most of their real-world applications of religious strictures.

The extremists just conveniently cast aside those 14 centuries of humanistic interpretation and commentaries on the Quran and interpret the text literally in its basest, most violent form.
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The hadith modifies the quran the exact same way the glossators modified the roman civil law- in both cases medieval lawyers added a ton of commentary to a core set of rules creating a byzantine mess that can be used to defend or oppose just about any position.

When this happens and the code becomes too complex for easy use the simpler, less interpretive, reading of the source almost always wins out.

Not a problem when the source is a well thought out and tested book of roman law, a massive problem when it is essentially an imperial cult designed for conquest and managing the conquered.
 
Vitriol said:
The hadith modifies the quran the exact same way the glossators modified the roman civil law- in both cases medieval lawyers added a ton of commentary to a core set of rules creating a byzantine mess that can be used to defend or oppose just about any position.

When this happens and the code becomes too complex for easy use the simpler, less interpretive, reading of the source almost always wins out.

Not a problem when the source is a well thought out and tested book of roman law, a massive problem when it is essentially an imperial cult designed for conquest and managing the conquered.
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Exactly so. The revisionist Wahabbist interpretation that ISIS and the Gulf State Muslims are trying to push on other Muslims only calls on about 100 years worth of very ideologically fire-and-brimstone commentary that just parrots the Quran without any amelioration.
 
millais said:
Exactly so. The revisionist Wahabbist interpretation that ISIS and the Gulf State Muslims are trying to push on other Muslims only calls on about 100 years worth of very ideologically fire-and-brimstone commentary that just parrots the Quran without any amelioration.
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Speaking of Wahhabism, I'd like to talk about it. I think most people are aware of Wahabbism as "radical Islam" but don't know the specifics.

Basically, Wahhabism is cancer. Pure, unadulterated cancer. We could talk for years on end about the pros and cons of Islam itself but Wahhabism has literally no redeeming qualities. In fact, Wahhabism can be linked to almost every single Islamic terrorist organization, most notably ISIS. I'll try to break it down.
  • Wahhabism was founded a douchebag guy named Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab in the region that would eventually become known as Saudi Arabia during the 1700s. Wahhab was deeply affronted by the direction Islam had taken. It had incorporated many spiritual elements from other religions such as Christianity and Hinduism, which included the veneration of holy sites and people. To Wahhab, this was a big no-no. You see, in Islam, the greatest sin of all is shirk, or polytheism. In extremely literalist sects like Wahhabism, even showing reverence to something like Muhammad's grave is considered shirk. In other words, absolutely no fun allowed. Wahhab demanded a purge that would return Islam to its "pure" state; according to Wahhab, the only way to do this was follow the Quran and hadiths to the absolute letter, with no liberal interpretations allowed.
  • This deserves its own bullet point because it's extremely significant. Wahhab ended up forming an alliance with a local leader Muhammad bin Saud, promising loyalty in exchange for Saud propagating Wahhabism. Saud ended up conquering much of the surrounding areas and founded the House of Saud, all while spreading Wahhabism. Saud's descendants would later establish Saudi Arabia and become the royal family. Even in 2015, the alliance between Wahhab and Saud still stands; Wahhabism is the official state religion of Saudi Arabia .
  • As for the beliefs and tenants of Wahhabism itself, it's basically the Westburo Baptist Church on a terrifyingly large scale. As I mentioned before, it is an extremely strict, fundamentalist version of Islam. They refuse to acknowledge anything from Shiites and Sufis (especially Sufis; Sufis are actually, by and large, the most peaceful and spiritual of Muslims and stress having a personal connection to God as opposed to following texts to the letter like Wahhabists demand) and basically want them wiped from the Earth for "perverting" Islam. Wahhabists also thoroughly reject any form of modern interpretation and debate about Islamic practices and theology.
  • Wahhabism is almost single-handedly responsible for Saudi Arabia being the backwards shithole it is now. Everything is based on Islamic law. This means that homosexuals and adulterers (or even just two unmarried people hanging out) are whipped or stoned, women are not allowed to leave the house without a male family member and must cover everything but their hands and eyes (they also can't drive), non-Muslims are prohibited from practicing their faith in public (no churches or temples exist in Saud Arabia), Muslims who choose to leave Islam (either by converting to another religion or by just becoming non-religious) are imprisoned for life (sometimes whipped or executed), and any speech that could even be remotely considered critical of Islam and its Prophet can net you decades in prison and/or public whippings. Imagine if the United States brutally enforced the laws of the Old Testament instead of taking a secular approach. That's pretty much Saudi Arabia.
  • Now, here's the most important part. I didn't call Wahhabism a cancer to be funny. It's literally cancer; it spreads uncontrollably and infects healthy areas, just like a disease. Saudi Arabia uses the billions of dollars it earns from selling oil to export Wahhabism. This is often done by building a mosque or madrassa (Islamic school) in a foreign country; in most cases, these are built in poorer areas that do not have the money to construct their own buildings. The Saudis will then assign imams to these mosques/schools that preach Wahhabism so they can slowly radicalize the populace. This has been a devastatingly effective method. Saudis also pay for the education of thousands of teachers and preachers so they can further spread Wahhabism. Their radical, backward, hate-filled version of Islam ends up overwhelming and suppressing any benign versions of Islam that existed before.
  • Literally billions of dollars have been poured into exporting Wahhabism over the past few decades, all funded by petro-dollars. The sad thing is that Western governments shamelessly bow to Saudi Arabia and allow them to pump Wahhabist propaganda and hate speech into their countries. No one wants to stand up to Saudi Arabia while they still control so much of the world's oil.
Again, there's literally nothing redeemable about Wahhabism. Islam at large can undergo a revolution like Christianity did and become more focused on personal, spiritual matters. But it can't do that as long as Wahhabism continues to hold it back.
 
The thing with Saudi Arabia it really only went ultra Islamist after the grand mosque seizure and Iranian revolution by giving the Saudi Arabian clergy a fuckton of influence in the country in exchange for not going against the king. The gender segregation and other nuttery is due to this.
 
Extreme Wahabbism also spread as a result of Western powers funding, via Saudi Arabia, mujahadeen to fight the Soviets in central Asia. Communism terrified the Saudis just as much as it terrified the West, and conservative religious Muslims have no more love for Communism than conservative religious Christians do. Of course, it seemed like the right idea at the time, and I don't know if Reagan, Thatcher, et al could've possibly known what would become of the anti-Soviet mujahadeen once they no longer had Soviets to fight. But once the mujahadeen returned to Saudi Arabia, they found no jobs there (chronic unemployment is a big problem in many Gulf countries as their economy is based almost entirely on oil, and other menial jobs are performed by South Asian immigrants). So you have deeply religious men who spent much of their formative years learning to fight in the name of their religion, now without an enemy to fight and nothing else to occupy their time or allow them to make a living, and,well, that's bad news.

EDIT: It's worth noting that Saudi fears of Communism were not unfounded; there were relatively popular Communist parties in Iran, Iraq, and other Islamic countries, and if I remember correctly the Egyptians and the Syrians had relatively warm relations with the Soviet Union.
 
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Yeah, South Yemen, right on the the Saudis' southern border was a straight up one-party Soviet dictatorship for twenty years
 
I'll go ahead and put in my two cents here. I don't honestly care which of the thousands of gods you believe in, or why. And it's common knowledge that the Islamic, Judaic, and Christian God is one and the same. So to me, a Muslim is simply a different breed of Christian.

That being said, the separation of cultures is horribly apparent when these three types of the same religion converge. Now, I'll be the first to say that I don't understand many aspects of an Islamic life, just as I don't understand the intricacies of Judaic life. However, the Muslims I have met have been degrees more polite than those christians and jews. Not saying that they are inferior, but simply stating what I have experienced socially.

As for immigration, I really am against mass influxes of immigrants. It damages every aspect of a country's infrastructure and economy. Also, a collision of belief is a strong kickstart to racism and bigotry, which I know is not as rampant as tumblrites would like to believe.

I suppose the point is that everyone is a dick, and I'm tired and why am I still awake
 
Islam seems complicated to say the least, I will admit most of what I know about the religion, is gathered from what I have read of the Quran, and from news reports. I think just reading the Quran, as a westerner, doesn't tell one everything about Islamic thought, because there are also the Hadith volumes, and interpretations of the Quran by Muslims probably vary, as much as interpretations of the Bible do. I don't see anything wrong with criticizing the religion though, and I hate the term Islamophobia, because that term makes it sound like criticizing the religion at all is bigotry. But I think people need to be careful with angry rhetoric. The Muslims I have met were all wonderful people, and I wouldn't want people like them lumped in with fundie extremists.
 
Picklepower said:
Islam seems complicated to say the least, I will admit most of what I know about the religion, is gathered from what I have read of the Quran, and from news reports. I think just reading the Quran, as a westerner, doesn't tell one everything about Islamic thought, because there are also the Hadith volumes, and interpretations of the Quran by Muslims probably vary, as much as interpretations of the Bible do. I don't see anything wrong with criticizing the religion though, and I hate the term Islamophobia, because that term makes it sound like criticizing the religion at all is bigotry. But I think people need to be careful with angry rhetoric. The Muslims I have met were all wonderful people, and I wouldn't want people like them lumped in with fundie extremists.
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Yeah, I agree with you. It's important to remember that people from every religious group interpret their faith differently; that's why in the United States we have Christians who march in LGBT parades and the Westburo Baptist Church.

But you bought up a very important point: the usage of the word "Islamophobia." Islamophobia is complete and utter bullshit for the most part. Islamophobia has been a term that's accurately described the discrimination Muslim-looking people have undergone since 9/11 (a big example is how people who aren't even fucking Muslim- like Indians or Sikhs- getting insulted or even assaulted just because they "look" Muslim). But I really feel like it's gotten way out of hand in recent years.

Criticizing Islam in any way is Islamophobia. Wanting someone to remove their burqa when they take an ID photo is Islamophobia. Asking that mosques that are rumored to host radical preachers who spread hate speech be monitored is Islamophobia. Not wanting sharia law to be implemented in a secular country (even just in family courts) is Islamophobia. Time and time again Islamophobia has been used as a way to shut down discussions about the dangers of radical Islam and Islamism (Islam as a political force) and I'm so tired of it. Nothing will change if we can't even discuss how to change.

That being said, I'm not denying people being discriminated against, because they are and it's terrible. But "Islamophobia" has become much more about race than religion now, which has led to any criticism of the Islamic religion or Islamism being branded as inherently racist. We can denounce bigotry, racism, and prejudice against Muslims or Arabs while still being able to criticize certain Islamic beliefs that pose a threat to Western society.
 
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