Incel and Lonely Men Debate thread - Defend men giving up or tell them otherwise

[YHWH's Strongest Soldier]

To feel they're being desired by others rather than having someone really interested in dating them?

Exactly that. By purchasing a prostitute, they deprive themselves of validation that comes with being desired for reasons other than money. They seek external validation through the opposite sex.

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

OK and why incels won't just hire one, then? I'd imagine there's pride (not paying for sex) or "it's not about simply getting laid" that keeps them hiring one but are these the only alternatives?

Perhaps they desire casual sex/relationships in a search for personal validation? To feel they're being desired by others rather than having someone really interested in dating them? You know, the thing most incels accuse women of.

Gee, people want to be genuinely loved rather than trying to compensate with empty sex? How awful.

 

[Celestial Peace]

By purchasing a prostitute, they deprive themselves of validation that comes with being desired for reasons other than money. They seek external validation through the opposite sex.

Doesn't seem to work that well in the long run.

Gee, people want to be genuinely loved rather than trying to compensate with empty sex? How awful.

In societies that overestimate sex and brainwashes people with post-Romanticism bullshit and performative shallow conservatism that overlooks the issues that comes with it over encouraging searching for matching partners with practical qualities and something in common I don't expect normies to be able to understand that.

That's why most normies take on incels such as "go out and touch grass bro" or its counterparts "hit the gym and get shredded", "join some activity where there's lots of girls" and whatever seem to be quite useless because these are places that have low tolerance for incels' autistic antics so there's not much room for growth.

I mean, even shrinks seem to have a hard time grasping that so it's an issue that still has a long way to go and perhaps it will linger on for decades. Just like drug abuse.

 

[cybertoaster]

My point is that maybe you're just not what the person you desire is looking for.

Pornsick incels have insane standards but among men they are a minority within a minority. Meanwhile the majority of women have unreasonable standards at best and impossible at worst, even matchmakers (female) tell them that.

Why does everyone, both men and women, have this gay retarded need to be someone else's emotional crutch?

I would say its the other way around hence all the complaining about "emotional labor", nobody wants to be anyone's crutch but want someone else to be their crutch.

 

[Qonas]

I

Pornsick incels have insane standards but among men they are a minority within a minority.

Incels, by the actual definition and not the slang media insult the word's become, are not a minority. Pornsick ones definitely are a minority though.

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

Perhaps they desire casual sex/relationships in a search for personal validation? To feel they're being desired by others rather than having someone really interested in dating them? You know, the thing most incels accuse women of.

Yes, they want to be Chad.

They want to be a man people respect and that women will go on casual flings with because they have value. That is why so many of them are big on "Looksmaxxing," "Workmaxxing" or any other type of buzzword. At top level, many of them want a genuine relationship.

If they pay a hooker, then they have no value. If a woman tries to have sex with them, even if it is because they have money/resources, that places them at a higher tier socially. We are dealing with a demographic that has either been largely scrutinized or ignored most of their lives, they want some form of validation and upwards mobility.

 

[Undead]

It is generally only western men who are obsessed with 'genuine attraction'. Rightly or wrongly men across the world use prostitutes to stop themselves going crazy because they have not been lied to about 'true love' or whatever their whole lives. I can't even imagine being a short male and feeling any sort of shame about using prostitutes, nor would I ever shame one for doing so. I have seen hundreds of times what women think of them, and other unfortunate men now the mask is off. The internet has lifted the lid on the romanticism bullshit, and seeking validation from women is borderline a symptom of mental illness. One thing that will come with the upcoming collapse is women whoring themselves out en masse. You should use that opportunity and not feel embarrassment about what women or some faggots try to shame you with.

 

[Qonas]

I can't even imagine being a short male and feeling any sort of shame about using prostitutes, nor would I ever shame one for doing so.

It's not about shame, and it's not about sex.

 

[Celestial Peace]

It is generally only western men who are obsessed with 'genuine attraction'.

The internet has lifted the lid on the romanticism bullshit

This is what I've been trying to put into debate: how much of this incel phenomenon is the byproduct of American mainstream media and how many incels there are worldwide as a relevant social phenomenon.

I can't even imagine being a short male and feeling any sort of shame about using prostitutes

I've always thought those who shame men who seek out hookers are either other men who do the same but won't admit to save face or women who feel like they're being sidelined but use the moralistic bullshit (one of the few moments that learned priggishness from le evul patriarchy is convenient for them) as an excuse to criticize them.

It's not about shame, and it's not about sex.

What are you talking about?

 

[Qonas]

What are you talking about?

Incels are not concerned with shame and if sex were the main crux of the issue, yes prostitutes would help the situation. They are not a solution because despite the definition, the core issue is not the involuntary celebacy; it's the failure to be a participant in dating. It's the failure to do what everyone else has been shown to be doing except them - be in a relationship. Have a connection with a woman. This failure makes them feel outcast, lesser-than, wastes of space. Paying for sex doesn't resolve that.

 

[Undead]

This is what I've been trying to put into debate: how much of this incel phenomenon is the byproduct of American mainstream media and how many incels there are worldwide as a relevant social phenomenon.

The incel phenomena is worldwide, and a result of women being able to pick for reasons outside of survival. America, and other western nations were just first. If women can choice, they will pick the best they can, settle later if they don't get first pick, or just live single if they can afford to keep themselves afloat.

You have to really define incel though. Because if incel is extended to men who's partners/wives are not attracted to them, but give them duty sex a few times a year, then the incel rate I think is over 80%

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

Right. I see it's time to talk about the Harry Harlow again.

Back in the 60s-70s when shrinks had some hair on their chest and a flexible sense of ethics, there was this guy named Harry Harlow. Harlow did a number of sociopathic but fascinating experiments on monkeys related to social bonding. Today I'm only going to talk about one: The Cloth Mother and the Wire Mother.

Harlow made two dummies. The first, the Cloth Mother, who was covered in soft fabric, but had no food. Then the Wire Mother, who was made out of rough metal wire, but had food. Then he starting putting monkeys in with them. The monkeys overwhelmingly preferred the wirecloth mother.

But he wasn't done. He the separated the mothers, and tested on two different groups on monkeys. The ones he put with the cloth mother were more or less normal. The ones with the wire mother were socially stunted and generally fucked up.

And that's MONKEYS. Now imagine what it's like in a more socially sophisticated species like, oh, I don't know... humans.

The feeling of intimacy is literally more psychologically important than food, and we have entire swathes of society not only completely deprived of it, but brutally shamed for even expressing the desire. But they're icky and that makes it okay.

EDIT: Typo that made the exact opposite point I was trying to make.

 

[Celestial Peace]

Incels are not concerned with shame and if sex were the main crux of the issue, yes prostitutes would help the situation. They are not a solution because despite the definition, the core issue is not the involuntary celebacy; it's the failure to be a participant in dating. It's the failure to do what everyone else has been shown to be doing except them - be in a relationship. Have a connection with a woman. This failure makes them feel outcast, lesser-than, wastes of space. Paying for sex doesn't resolve that.

I've heard that before in this very same thread, but seriously that's a point that's quite useless to think about because incels are perennially or permanently fucked in the "seeking a girlfriend" department.

Even if you put an incel in the shrink ward and stuff him with meds he would still be an incel because you know what else turns off a woman? A man having to take pills to face another day. Even if women themselves do that in a higher frequency than men. With meds, an incel is at best a numbed sperg, without them, he is a sperg. And as I've said before, most social gatherings have little tolerance for their lack of social skills. Not to mention the bullshit that dating apps are.

So, yeah, they don't have many options.

Most of them are the result of toxic parents and shit household environment and are set for a lonely life due to psychological hindrances that they can't get rid of while dealing with these "women only want Chad" dilemmas which either makes them convince themselves they can be as much "Chad" as Chad himself or, when not suppressed by their subconscious, makes them realize they're set for a lonely death.

Another thing that's kinda funny to think about is while incels indeed have unwarranted and unrealistic standards for women, if we are to take them seriously which I believe is kinda moronic to do, how many normies of both genders don't have ridiculous expectations of their partners which can't be fulfilled?

One must think it might be Natural Selection in action, toxic parents spawning psychologically stunted beings in a society that keeps them at bay where their fate is to be found dead after days when decomposition is at an advanced stage and the stench is too much to ignore because they have no one that gives a fuck. One can think this is kinda of fucked up only for not conforming to what women feel entitled to. Of course, I'm not including incels who go Postal.

But, hey, how many sub-groups in society don't face similar fates simply by being different? That's society in a nutshell.

That's why saying "if they would do X or Y they would get a girlfriend" sounds naive or even suggesting they could "find love" sounds condescending. When someone says "incels must die" or something like that at least sounds more honest or, dare I say, compassionate. It would be better than to live a life where you see damaged people enter into relationships all the time but for some reason you are left out because you don't conform to some Romanticist view of women or because you don't have enough charisma to avoid the friendzone.

And for much shit incels/redpills get they've managed to do something: get attention from female TikTokers, lifestyle coach grifters and other parts of society telling them they're not "men" for failing to find a partner or refusing to find one through conventional means. And some might frame them for the declining birthrates in the future because if "single men epidemic" is really a thing then the government will have serious issues with less people being born and a workforce that only ages meaning less people paying taxes.

It'll be hard to put into words why but, for incels, seeing society collapsing like that would be a bigger satisfaction than getting pussy/a girlfriend. After all, there's not much for them in life.

a result of women being able to pick for reasons outside of survival. America, and other western nations were just first. If women can choice, they will pick the best they can, settle later if they don't get first pick, or just live single if they can afford to keep themselves afloat.

The "best" that they want to pick usually is way outta their league and even if they managed to live alone I highly doubt they can stand the loneliness and the mental toll that'll come with it.

And it's quite hypocrite to expect someone that is the exact opposite of what you are. If you don't have nothing to offer then what makes you think you're entitled to shit? If you're full of mommy/daddy issues, thinks a man should earn more than you, likes to play hard to get, thinks someone normal fits you but you yourself are fucked in the head, what the fuck makes you think you can expect a "good man"? Not different from incels.

The feeling of intimacy is literally more psychologically important than food, and we have entire swathes of society not only completely deprived of it, but brutally shamed for even expressing the desire. But they're icky and that makes it okay.

Think of it as some great social reset. Only this time people will drop the romantic bullshit and be less abstract and more practical in their search for a partner.

No more people thinking they can "fix him/her", no more people thinking courtships are the end and not a mean, no more people wanting others to fit their asinine expectations, no more people encouraging or enabling toxic behaviors and some other retarded bullshit we have in current society. Just people dropping the fucking pretense and building a family/society/community (whatever the fuck you want to call it) for continuity of a healthy existence.

In the long run there's some irony of post-Romanticism seeking to give more emphasis on the individual rather than the fixed and collective notions of Rationalism, which resulted on collective hedonistic tendencies becoming the norm for some groups in society, which came from resentment and not from a will to improve issues, and afterwards to the rest of society.

Obviously, incels are the epitome of resentment but, they came after so many things happened in society. Using The Supreme Gentleman as the poster boy for them only placed them as a scapegoat when, in reality, they are the symptom of a disease.

It's not like he had nothing to do with it though. Elliot has been dead for over a decade but he became the spark to a powder keg.

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

Think of it as some great social reset. Only this time people will drop the romantic bullshit and be less abstract and more practical in their search for a partner.

No more people thinking they can "fix him/her", no more people thinking courtships are the end and not a mean, no more people wanting others to fit their asinine expectations, no more people encouraging or enabling toxic behaviors and some other retarded bullshit we have in current society. Just people dropping the fucking pretense and building a family/society/community (whatever the fuck you want to call it) for continuity of a healthy existence.

Right, right. I'm sure Harlow's monkeys were just tricked by Hallmark's marketing department into thinking they actually wanted intimacy rather than food. Monkeys and humans in nature view socialization as a sterile business transaction, as God intended.

In the long run there's some irony of post-Romanticism seeking to give more emphasis on the individual rather than the fixed and collective notions of Rationalism, which resulted on collective hedonistic tendencies becoming the norm for some groups in society, which came from resentment and not from a will to improve issues, and afterwards to the rest of society.

I'm sorry, WHAT? If anything, it's rationalism that tried to boil everything down vague notions of maximizing utility by trying to use sex as a substitute for real love, and we're still paying the price several generations later. People are just starting to recognize the damage that's been done but we still haven't figured out how to deal with it. It's made worse by the dating app monopoly is trying to fight any solution every step of the way so relationships can remain a commodity to be bought and sold rather than being a genuine connection.

 

[Celestial Peace]

Monkeys and humans in nature view socialization as a sterile business transaction

If you think searching for a partner who doesn't use people as emotional crutches, who doesn't enable toxic behavior, who doesn't engage in toxic behavior, has no issues with herself and others is "sterile business transaction" then you might as well go spend time with a BPD wretch thinking you can "help" until your mental health goes to shit and you feel like offing yourself everyday.

If your image of "real love" is to deal with the types I've mentioned above and in my previous comment than no wonder society is fucked.

Me personally would rather let these types in the mental ward to get medicated and preferably keep them the fuck away from me.

You want thrill, dude? Go ride a roller-coaster or use drugs. I seek stability and consistency. That's how societies/civilizations are made of.

And, seriously, do you think the monkey experiment wasn't a transactional one? If we are to consider what the experiment achieved the whole thing was basically "what option benefits me?" to baby monkeys.

You think you can have a relationship without providing anything in return? You want to use others for comfort but you gotta give something in return. "You get what you give" has always been the standard instead of this phony-ass altruism where people pretend they're just helping others without expecting shit back. It has been like this since mankind started to form hunter-gathering societies.

That's how human nature works.

What would an incel offer to a woman besides his complete lack of sex appeal, lack of social skills and fucked up thoughts on women? He has nothing a woman could benefit from regardless if we were to reduce things into a materialistic POV, an objective POV or even a psychological POV.

Can't offer support? Off to the margins of society you go.

I'm sorry, WHAT? If anything, it's rationalism that tried to boil everything down vague notions of maximizing utility by trying to use sex as a substitute for real love, and we're still paying the price several generations later. People are just starting to recognize the damage that's been done but we still haven't figured out how to deal with it.

Romanticism overrated the individual to the point of borderline narcissism and was used and abused by mainstream media slop to shape popular opinion into thinking what relationships are and how you form them standardizing them into a fabricated model which lead to lots of social issues.

Abusive relationships, for example, are a byproduct of romanticizing certain people or behaviors.

Not to mention, the "using sex as a substitute for love" is peak individualism and living for emotions which are Romanticist ideas.

It's made worse by the dating app monopoly is trying to fight any solution every step of the way so relationships can remain a commodity to be bought and sold rather than being a genuine connection.

That's just capitalization on your so-called "real love". This has always been a thing but now technology made it more widespread and accessible.

 

[Neodanthril]

I guess im the resident trucel, being black and autistic has killed any chance of true love. So there's resentment and satisfaction seeing women who rejected me end up single moms and bad relationships. I guess not being a "pookie" or "rayray" or any negative caricature isn't attractive.

Start nigmaxxing

 

[⋖ cørdion ⋗]

Gee, people want to be genuinely loved rather than trying to compensate with empty sex? How awful.

I'd honestly forgotten how important it was not to be a virgin. I barely see it mentioned anymore, if ever, even by youths. Is it just completely irrelevant now? I mean, most amateur porn and those who rush to partake in it at 18 do portrait-mode SFW tier shit. They put on a thong and wiggle slightly in a room full of LEDs. You know for sure those thots are virgins cause they only look serviceable in one specific angle; the angle they record all their videos in.

I think there's a great market for "the loser getting the super popular streamer girl who's actually a boring normie off-camera". And I'm sure I've seen doujins that covered that angle. Nevermind.

If your image of "real love" is to deal with the types I've mentioned above and in my previous comment than no wonder society is fucked.

People who thought lowly of themselves would rather help fix someone far beneath them than to hope they can land someone a step above them. Sadly, today, those 'below' them are obese women who still think themselves queens worthy of an OF audience, or whatever the male equivalent of that is. I come across so many people who are clearly of low worth; the obese fat nerdy girl who had to lose weight to land a balding fatty, who is now instead a desired SSBBW on Twitch. The unloveable and genuinely vile people who're instead labeled "brats".

It's all about enabling and boasting about bad things to different people, except it's bad when it's a dude and great when it's a woman. I recently read a discussion on beastly males in female-targeted smut novels. Women want the best of the best, so they get a knotted knight. Men want the bare minimum so they get a ragged ex-slave gobbo. And people wonder why everything is skewed.

 

[WhimsicalTrolli]

Incels are not concerned with shame and if sex were the main crux of the issue, yes prostitutes would help the situation. They are not a solution because despite the definition, the core issue is not the involuntary celebacy; it's the failure to be a participant in dating. It's the failure to do what everyone else has been shown to be doing except them - be in a relationship. Have a connection with a woman. This failure makes them feel outcast, lesser-than, wastes of space. Paying for sex doesn't resolve that.

Doesn't help & only exasperated the issue when you are told not to approach women and women view you as a rapist sleeper agent for the past 15 years and now the psst 5 to 8 years you can get swatted/arrested for approaching women.

So it's kinda a don't piss on my leg & say it's rain because they want to acknowledge the male loneliness pandemic but also want to blame men for their own solitude.

 

[Celestial Peace]

I'd honestly forgotten how important it was not to be a virgin.

Yeah, until last decade, being a virgin for men and women after a certain age was a thing to be ridiculed, like, a lot.

Let me tell you one thing: I don't know how hook-up culture is where you live but here, until mid 2010s, nightclubs were a popular meeting place for hook-ups for men to hit on women while paying drinks for them.

Said women in its majority were hired indirectly by the clubs (through agents who were called "promoters") to get men's attention and make them pay for the drinks to chat with them as if they were regulars instead of working for the venue so they would earn their finder's fee from the promoters and the venue would profit from the drinks (among other things obviously).

However they wouldn't get laid with these women since they were there only to make these schmucks pay for drinks, unless said woman was an "escort" (id est, prostitute).

The whole thing was setup to make it look like simps were paying drinks for thots and trying to get laid with them. If that was the case, at least it would be more natural.

But the whole thing was a scam and the amount of idiots that would attend nightclubs hoping to score with some girl was huge. They would spend the night there and in the next day they would be penniless and not have had any.

Women who were into nightclubs would usually prefer to go to male gay clubs so they wouldn't be bothered by straight men hitting on them as it would happen in regular clubs.

Nightclubs stopped being a thing after the rise of dating apps and the final blow would be delivered by the COVID pandemic. And, of course, Gen Z isn't into nightclubs.

Nowadays you see even DJs who worked at such venues admitting the whole thing.

The takeaway is: many things involving hook-up culture are fabricated rather than organic because there's always someone who'll profit from it. But I doubt most people back in the day would see through the overestimating of sex.

Incels and redpills are perhaps aware of this but, for incels, this won't solve their loneliness issues.

They could learn a lesson from it and stop trying to take this whole hook-up bullshit seriously and see it for what it really is: a waste of time. That's why they should hire some call girl or whatever as a workaround for their lack of sexual activity. It would be better than to be terminally online in some forum.

And, of course, not bother with this silly feeling of "I'm paying to get laid". People don't have to know anyway but I suppose they would be too autistic to not tell anyone. They're autistic enough to overestimate people anyway.

However, they would still be too much of a sperg for women to handle so, yeah, no GF for them.

You know for sure those thots are virgins cause they only look serviceable in one specific angle; the angle they record all their videos in.

So they LARP as thots?

I think there's a great market for "the loser getting the super popular streamer girl who's actually a boring normie off-camera".

Who would've guessed a common trope in romantic comedy movies would turn into a profitable thing, huh? I mean said losers still get none but that won't stop them from cooming.

And I'm sure I've seen doujins that covered that angle.

Would you mind sharing it? Thanks.

People who thought lowly of themselves would rather help fix someone far beneath them than to hope they can land someone a step above them.

Of course they would. It's far easier to say some bogus useless advice to someone who's knee deep in the shit and feel better about oneself for that.

You can go beyond and pretend you're fighting the good fight using people more fucked than you as self-promotion just like any other government. That's the standard for altruism in society anyway.

Sadly, today, those 'below' them are obese women who still think themselves queens worthy of an OF audience, or whatever the male equivalent of that is. I come across so many people who are clearly of low worth; the obese fat nerdy girl who had to lose weight to land a balding fatty, who is now instead a desired SSBBW on Twitch. The unloveable and genuinely vile people who're instead labeled "brats".

Doesn't help & only exasperated the issue when you are told not to approach women and women view you as a rapist sleeper agent for the past 15 years and now the psst 5 to 8 years you can get swatted/arrested for approaching women.

These two quotes above explain the reason why redpill content creators are getting so much traction today. Especially when you have TikTok thots complaining men are not hitting on them anymore.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

It is generally only western men who are obsessed with 'genuine attraction'. Rightly or wrongly men across the world use prostitutes to stop themselves going crazy because they have not been lied to about 'true love' or whatever their whole lives.

Around the world non-Western men are animals fit only for the fields and mines. The Western concept of love is one of the finer parts of this culture.