Incel and Lonely Men Debate thread - Defend men giving up or tell them otherwise

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I mean, generally, there is little to disprove. Humans are animals, and animals have sexual selection. The selective sex is the one that puts the most "effort" into reproduction, and in the modern world where both men and women have to work full-time, the agony, effort, physical risk, and childrearing-obligation of motherhood is more taxing than siring a child. As a result, women are going to be more selective than men to at least some degree. (It's uncomfortable, but you can argue that women going to work made this situation far more extreme. Personally I think more women should be stay at home moms, but the option of not being one should never be taken away. But for that, we need a fairer distribution of wealth, better economy, what have you.)

Most people are pretty uninteresting and have extremely generic taste in men and women, but women have more of an ability to actually select for these preferences, with more men settling. So the incel "theory" of a bunch of women trying to go after a small group of conventionally highly attractive people is right to an extent.

The information age has obviously made this much, much, much worse by giving people far more "choices" than humans ever evolved to have. Stuff like Tinder has basically broken the sex economy in that way. I talked about this a couple pages ago and won't go into it here.

Now, I'm going to differ from incel doctrine with this particular advice. All the above applies to maybe 66-95% of men and women-- the kinds of people who are relatively generic. People within a standard deviation or two of the "mean" of humanity, mentally. When you get to people a standard deviation or two away from the mean, you get to the people who select for unexpected and highly individualistic things.

For example, take my brother and his wife. Both of them waited until their 30s to date even a single other person because they were only interested in dating someone else in their field of mathematics, despite being conventionally attractive. Then after years and years, they finally met each other and basically instantly paired for life. Or take one of my friends, who basically selects boyfriends based on how good at Smash Ultimate they are. She's an incredibly beautiful opera singer, and her current boyfriend had never dated anyone else, is overweight, has a recessed chin, and never goes outside. I know personally more women who are like this than not, just because I tend to be in very niche communities, but every time I see an incel thread I think about these kinds of women. This is personally how I meet 100% of the men I date, and I can assure you that the competition is not as strong as you'd think.

Basically my most earnest practical advice is that if you're not supremely handsome, you should try to be highly interesting in some niche way that will appeal to a woman in that niche. And then, you have to physically go to locations where this niche gathers. This could be a hobby, grad school, etc. If you are that and clean-kept, respectful, and not addicted to porn or drugs you will be leagues and leagues ahead of the other men you'd be "competing with" in these niches.

I sperged a while ago about how the internet is fucking over men, but here is some actually practical advice for someone who's struggling to date from my (admittedly specific) point of view. People find "incel theory" uncomfortable because it shows aspects of dating/sex that are true but reflect poorly on the majority of the population. It's a theory that (in its less schizo form) does model a big part of the sex economy well, but it's not the whole picture. My advice is that you can ignore this population and can get out this system entirely if you have the acumen.
Excellent post.

For myself, I (obviously) have an attraction to reading about incels, but I've never considered myself to be one psychologically or paid any mind to their writing. Incels are more than just men who are lonely or romantically challenged; they're a movement, a countercultural identity. It is a purely toxic one that does nothing to uplift them. They tend to suffer severe body dysmorphia, a pathological hatred of women. For me, I have mostly just been very passive in my life. I likely had what the world would describe as Aspergers growing up, but I was never diagnosed and I think that is a good thing; I hate how the modern world clinicalizes normal varieties of human experience. And I think that I largely outgrew it. I first outgrew it in college when I knew that I had to be proactive about meeting friends instead of taking my enjoyment in seeing the same people class after class (because that wouldn't be the case anymore), and I outgrew it again in graduate school when I was thrown into a social group with normalfaggots. They turned out to be douchebags and it made me miserable. Then I began to teach and I experienced a spiritual awakening and also felt like I aged twenty years in one. I felt like an adult, even started to feel like an old gentleman.

But I was just passive for most of my life, and most boys only learn to overcome fear of rejection and become good flirts and that sort of thing through trial and error. And with enough time these things naturally become less important to a person who doesn't obsess about them. No man approaching thirty should be regularly distressed about being single, and a person will start to feel like a monk-like acceptance of their (completely self-inflicted) situation.

I shared, in another thread, why I think I came to be so passive, and it was a very bad experience with my first/only girlfriend, and then a few sporadic disappointments after that. All subconscious.

Going off your advice, I had recently come to realize that there is a type of woman who I'd probably be happy with, and it's the sort of woman that does crafts and participates in historical reenactments, historical societies, things like that. I have an interest in traditional Southern cooking. I have an interest in quilting. I used to do these elaborate symmetrical, geometric "drawings" on graph paper as doodling in classes, and at some point I realized that my artwork was very similar to quilt patterns, just for more ornate. Quilting would be a more culturally meaningful and constructive way to do that, and I've wanted to learn a visual art/craft. I am learning to square dance. I realized that the "pioneer" kind of woman does exist, but they're going to be found at "pioneer days" events making pottery and paper for children, at contra dances, at things like that. She probably has to be fairly religious, for purposes of being like-minded about abortion and faggotry and possibly praying too, which is a concern for me as I am not a doctrinaire Christian. Only a deist and a cultural Evangelical. The culture is sick.

I used to think that being interesting was the way to compensate for being overweight (not a killer in and of itself: I have a lineman's physique, tall and broad-shouldered, if I put on muscle there are plenty of women that love bear-like men). What I came to realize was that what most people consider interesting is very narrow because most people are themselves uninteresting and uninterested in anything outside of their experience. Most people don't like music; they like a genre of music and they wear it as a fashion statement. Most people do not do crafts or play instruments and it doesn't rate any higher in their eyes if someone else does. Moreover, I came to question if I was ever really that interested in these things or if it was the self-image of being a Renaissance man that I liked. I used to be proactive, always trying new things, trying to fill my day with "productive" activities, and I can't say as I was any genuinely happier. Maybe I was just chasing after the wrong things.

When I was younger I had an overwhelming fear of being alone when my parents died, and I also wanted to have children for when they were young enough to enjoy that. They didn't push it on me; I pushed it on myself and they never understood it. I also wanted kisses and pussy. Now I don't know that the woman matters, but the kids still do, and I feel like time is just slipping away.

The two most attractive women I have known recently. One, and I don't feel I can say as much about her without power leveling, but she was a very plain young woman (notably younger than me), heavy set and had a very dry sense of humor. Only ate chicken and only ate ones she raised and killed herselves out of devotion to her anti-animal-cruelty principles. It impressed the hell out of me. She leaned socialist and could get excited over switchblades and other knives. Was awesome. I liked to imagine her as some butch farmwife with calloused hands. I felt giddy when I got to talk to her, and that stood out to me because I knew it was NOT physical attraction. The other was a Muslim woman I met, an activist type, who wore the hijab and was very sweet and feminine that is rare to see these days except among old women. She was my age and was probably the first woman in nine (?) years to give me a glowing feeling, and while we never had a formal date we had a long ride together that very much felt like one. She only courts, though, and that means only Muslims.

I'm gonna kill myself over singleness I think
No you won't.
Also, gay.
 
I never seriously considered suicide, but the few times I toyed with the thought I always came to the conclusion if I was desperate enough to do it, I'd rather do something exciting and radical with my life regardless of circumstance or possible risks.

And by that I don't mean perpetrating a mass shooting. More something like selling everything you have and moving to Iceland to work on a fishing boat.

Might give you a new outlook on life and it can't be much worse than what you have now if you're considering the KYS option.
That's a (and I mean this genuinely) nice thought and I can't say as it's bad advice either, but that's not how suicidals think. People that are sincere with the idea - beyond it just flitting through like it does for everyone at some time or another - are often so drained that they can't get enjoyment out of life. Wouldn't be suicidal otherwise! It's a disease of demoralization.
 
Shitty gatcha games, bottom tier animu like fate, wasting their lives on 4chan, what else? they still doing that night walking shit?
Those are NEETs, not incels.

What kinds of hobbies are incels most likely to have anyway?
They like rom-com manga/anime, videogames, and not much more beyond that. Some are into those weird gymmaxsing/looksmaxxing shit, but idk if that counts
 
Yeah, but your idea of "fun" involves degeneracy. And then you be like "ZoOmErS WaTcH tOo MuCh PoRn! ZOMG!"
I don't give a rats anus about porn. It's other Farmers who think banning porn will lead to solving all of their problems. I don't buy it. I frankly don't give a shit.

Yeah, a lot of that fun was degeneracy. I had a good time. It also didn't affect my personal and business life in any long standing way. Sorry you didn't get to experience that. Go be sour grapes about having a wasted youth elsewhere.
 
Incels are more than just men who are lonely or romantically challenged; they're a movement, a countercultural identity. It is a purely toxic one that does nothing to uplift them.
great observation, what being an incel is to being unfortunate in love is what being a flag-waving pride parade faggot is to being gay. sure, you're weird either way, but you don't have to go full psycho
 
For myself, I (obviously) have an attraction to reading about incels, but I've never considered myself to be one psychologically or paid any mind to their writing. Incels are more than just men who are lonely or romantically challenged; they're a movement, a countercultural identity. It is a purely toxic one that does nothing to uplift them.
You are overthinking this way too much. You want to understand why men turn to the red pill/MGTOW? It's very fucking simple. They're afraid of getting a divorce. The Sex Revolution changed women's behavior radically. Some men understood this, but it was largely esoteric knowledge. Now that men have the internet and the means to communicate- they have started to talk and they've identified patterns and behaviors that women display that make them likely to divorce you.

They have a right to be afraid. Divorce in America is absolutely fucking BRUTAL towards men. Most of the world does not have this problem. Divorce in America is a multi billion dollar industry that's exploited out the ass to use men as a wallet. It's also nearly impossible to change. Women and the government benefit from divorce and do not want divorce laws to change. So you have half the population who wants change and half who does not. The internet has brought this argument to the front page of everyone's minds, and many Zoomers and millennials have divorced parents or are divorced themselves. That's why dating is in such a death spiral. That's it.

For younger men and teens, it's very easy to understand. Teens see this stuff, see women in their schools behave like the women they're warned about and figure out where they stand. They'll notice whether they're the guys who get girls or the guys that don't and they'll either handle it well or not. But expecting teens to not be retarded is a fool's errand.

On a side note, I don't buy most men who say they're MGTOW, are truly MGTOW. The only men who I believe swear off women are divorcees who already got burned. The rest will fold when the right poon comes along. They always do. Look at Think Before You Sleep.

She leaned socialist
Bro dis ain't it..

She only courts, though, and that means only Muslims
As good as that might've been, you don't want to tolerate a Muslim family. Trust me.
 
Incels are more than just men who are lonely or romantically challenged; they're a movement
Nah there's no movement unless you count shitting on each other on 4chan or discord a movement, they never get anything done.
Only ate chicken and only ate ones she raised and killed herselves out of devotion to her anti-animal-cruelty principles. It impressed the hell out of me. She leaned socialist and could get excited over switchblades and other knives
Sounds like a bipolar loonie who's gonna cut you up, go for it.
and a person will start to feel like a monk-like acceptance of their (completely self-inflicted) situation.
IDK if being born like most of these incels its self inflicted, as in fugly, manlet, poor, autistic or a combination of all those. The amount of incels I seen that I can truly say "how the fuck you aren't getting any?" is reaaaaally small, can't think of any right now. With genetics we now know that as much as 70% of all men who ever existed never reproduced so this isn't news, what changed is that many men are aware of this now so they are no longer under the illusion they have a chance.
Those are NEETs, not incels.
Something something venn diagram, one circle.
They have a right to be afraid. Divorce in America is absolutely fucking BRUTAL towards men. Most of the world does not have this problem
Plenty of kiwis from overseas have stated its just as bad if not worse over there, even those in third world countries.
 
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Plenty of kiwis from overseas have stated its just as bad if not worse over there, even those in third world countries.
Divorce sucks everywhere. However, there's only a handful of places that allow:

1. Permanent Alimony
2. Alimony based on potential income
3. An easy ability to completely remove contact from the child.

Other places will at most have some combination of the above. The US is the only one with all 3. Even so, the process is still vastly different. The US has a vastly skewed system and there are judges who will look at you, see all of your assets and rip them away from you sheerly because they're feminists and feel bad for the woman. It's absolutely fucked in America.
 
Haha fuck no, plenty of countries have all of those PLUS shit like in France and Germany where you will go to jail if you get a DNA test done to see if the kids are yours, I shit you not.
They're hellish in their own right but France and Germany have limits on potential based alimony. The US does not. In America, if I make 90k, and a judge deems that in 10 years, I'm making 130k, he can allocate alimony based on the 130k. You know what they do when you say you can't pay without becoming homeless? The judge will laugh and say get a better job.
 
Sorry you didn't get to experience that.
I don't feel sorry for not doing shit I would regret later in life or grant me AIDS.
I would say that the ability to do that is quite vital to your personal wellbeing
You only gotta be hearing that midlife crisis knocking on the door to feel nostalgic about that shit.

Guess what, ma'am, I've done that too when I was younger and what did I get? A bunch of assholes for friends whom I don't to talk to anymore who would do shit behind each other's back while pretending they were the good guys or gals. And a blackout at a party.

You know why people quit doing that? It's something called "growing up" and/or not wanting to become an alcoholic.

As for "vital": Cut the bullshit. No one develops social skills acting like a moron.

This "you gotta do stupid shit which might fuck you up for the rest of your life to have friends" mindset is pure juvenile thinking.

Might be vital as to learn how not be an irresponsible rebellious prick. Other than it doesn't amount to anything.
 
You only gotta be hearing that midlife crisis knocking on the door to feel nostalgic about that shit.

Guess what, ma'am, I've done that too when I was younger and what did I get? A bunch of assholes for friends whom I don't to talk to anymore who would do shit behind each other's back while pretending they were the good guys or gals. And a blackout at a party.

You know why people quit doing that? It's something called "growing up" and/or not wanting to become an alcoholic.

As for "vital": Cut the bullshit. No one develops social skills acting like a moron.

This "you gotta do stupid shit which might fuck you up for the rest of your life to have friends" mindset is pure juvenile thinking.

Might be vital as to learn how not be an irresponsible rebellious prick. Other than it doesn't amount to anything.
Have you considered that your negative stance towards having fun might be wrong? When I look at your other posts, it doesn't seem to working out too well for you. Admittedly, my stance towards this has its origins in Hesse's Siddhartha and it was further influenced by personal experiences. It's not particularly intellectual.

Being able to take act like a dummy without a care in the world is healthy most of the time. Personally, I made some good, permanent friends when getting shitfaced as lowering your social boundaries is an express path towards bonding with people. Also, taking yourself seriously all the time and becoming an ascetic is not part of growing up at all in most cases and seems rather juvenile to me. In fact, most teetotalers that I know are 20-somethings who have built up zero social skills and are currently suffering the consequences of their risk aversion. No girlfriend or social network to speak of with suicidality as the cherry on top.

Besides, life is not made solely for responsibility and being a complacent drone will not earn you any admiration or love. Live a little and worthwhile people will flock to you.
 
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Have you considered that your negative stance towards having fun might be wrong?
If by "negative" you mean "quitting stupid behavior that brings you senseless harm because you're one dumbass youngster" then, yeah, I'm as negative as the average motherfucker.
When I look at your other posts, it doesn't seem to working out too well for you.
I'm gonna let you discourse about that. Really curious to know what you have to say.
Being able to take act like a dummy without a care in the world is healthy most of the time.
'Till consequences hit you and you have to face them. Do you really have to try and stick a fork in an outlet to know what is the outcome?

Typical philosophy of a teenager that complains her parents are too annoying and boring when they call her out on her immature antics.

Also, most lolcows here act just like you describe and still their karma comes in full effect when the time is due.
Also, taking yourself seriously all the time and becoming an ascetic
If you want people to take you seriously it ain't acting like a doofus that you're gonna make it. And where exactly did I talked about being ascetic? IIRC I've never even suggested that.
is not part of growing up at all in most cases
Let me tell you what makes part of growing up: Not acting like a carefree idiot. Especially not getting hammered and making a scene. Talking from personal experience. There are things you do that you shouldn't be proud of. Laugh at it to make it comical if you will.

Another thing that makes one grow up: Realizing that true friendship is not going out for a drink. It requires mutual trust and respect which is something I am yet to see in most people.
and seems rather juvenile to me.
You're the one who thinks acting like a complete retard even when it isn't age-appropriate no more is a "healthy way to live life".
In fact, most teetotalers that I know are 20-somethings who have built up zero social skills and are currently suffering the consequences of their risk aversion. No girlfriend or social network to speak of with suicidality as the cherry on top.
Weak-ass bitches. Let them perish.
Besides, life is not made solely for responsibility
Unless you have a stable life and stable income that doesn't bring you stress I'd argue most people's lives are made of carrying out their duties between brief moments of distraction.
and being a complacent drone will not earn you any admiration or love.
As if I need anyone to tell me "Oh, you're a good person" or some other NPC-tier jargon straight outta a Psych2Go article.

Carry on relying on others nice words and see how they fall flat.
Live a little and worthwhile people will flock to you.
Worthwhile people flock to those who have something to offer that isn't thoughtless habits or cheap philosophy. It's like making a deal. People won't make a deal with people who have nothing to offer.
 
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I can assure you that any woman who would be interested in me is not someone you'd want.
Can you describe them for me?

I clicked on this thread by accident, but as a lesbian, I'm very intrigued by your statement. Do any of them wear pantsuits? Like, are they sorta crazy, but not criminally crazy or BPD crazy?
 
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