Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

[man_made_of_meat]

Now THAT's an actual plot line that could be interesting. It's all well and good that random sinner schumcks want go to the Hotel to get redeemed, or just want a free bed to crash at like Angel originally did. But the concept of redemption would actually be proven much more strongly if a seemingly powerful sinner like Zestial or Camilla or whatever can actually get convinced to give up their accumulated souls (and what is the pyschological implication of a sinner holding another sinner's soul to begin with? If the soul holder is an active piece of shit, do they hear the screams and cries of their victims in their dreams or whenever they're alone and vulnerable? Nope, it's just a little factoid about Hell, nothing all that much interesting), and as such, give up their power and associated stability and strength to risk actually trying to find hope, find valor in redemption?

Vivz, PLEASE, hire someone to actually think this shit out for once, even if only an glorified ideas guy. You already given up on your shows being anything resembling an actual comedy. They're now dramas. And good dramas *love* including implications hidden in their text for consumers of such text to mull over when not actively interacting with it. I know, give me the rainbows already

Do we really think that Al would ever give up his magnificent plan of climbing to the summit of Hells hierarchy? Lol, lmao even.

 

[The Nothingness]

And watch, the same will happen with HH: Viv has been sperging about this on her x account as well, about drawing the parallelism about poor babies of hell being raided by ice exterminators and how these poor sinners have a reason now to be angy at Heaven and Vox is LiTErAlly like orange man blablablabla

I would like to see her make that analogy, only for sane people to bring up that Vox is less like Trump and more like the Democrat politicians who are whipping up the leftist nutjobs to attack ICE agents. Although, it would be in vain since that won't matter to her audience.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

Bro the painter joke was right there

Or a writer joke.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

Now THAT's an actual plot line that could be interesting. It's all well and good that random sinner schumcks want go to the Hotel to get redeemed, or just want a free bed to crash at like Angel originally did. But the concept of redemption would actually be proven much more strongly if a seemingly powerful sinner like Zestial or Camilla or whatever can actually get convinced to give up their accumulated souls (and what is the pyschological implication of a sinner holding another sinner's soul to begin with? If the soul holder is an active piece of shit, do they hear the screams and cries of their victims in their dreams or whenever they're alone and vulnerable? Nope, it's just a little factoid about Hell, nothing all that much interesting), and as such, give up their power and associated stability and strength to risk actually trying to find hope, find valor in redemption?

An overlord wanting redemption would be an interesting plot line. People wanting to change for the better becauee they're having a shitty time makes sense, but what about someone who is doing great for themselves because of the terrible stuff they do? It's much harder to want to change if everything is going your way, and to be better would mean to give up a lot of the things that benefit you specifically. Don't mean to quote the Bible here but it's like Jesus said: "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God".

 

[sixuglymidgets]

An overlord wanting redemption would be an interesting plot line. People wanting to change for the better becauee they're having a shitty time makes sense, but what about someone who is doing great for themselves because of the terrible stuff they do? It's much harder to want to change if everything is going your way, and to be better would mean to give up a lot of the things that benefit you specifically. Don't mean to quote the Bible here but it's like Jesus said: "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God".

Viv really gave up any interesting ideas for her ships huh?

 

[man_made_of_meat]

Viv really gave up any interesting ideas for her ships huh?

Consistent with her analysis or problem solving incapacity. I have the feeling that, for example, for somehow the same reason she made Al asexual to reduce him to what we call a "macchietta" in italian in the main plot line, because she allegedly might not be able to contextualise or imagine how someone like him could manage himself in a relationship. Aside from the dark romance trope involving Charlie which makes me cringe even just at the idea (i just find it banal, sorry) plot Al was an explosion of full unadulterated potential, that got demoted as quickly as possible during the first season as well. Now he s just a silly, looney t(r)oons evil Al, that will be scheming but will fail, because hahah the raped.

Same with Vaggie, as already described in depth by everyone else in this discussion so far, full on wasted potential for plot and character development. Now she is the gf of charlie trope, that's it. Move on.

 

[Vyse Inglebard]

Saw The Devil's Rejects for it's 20th anniversary earlier this week. How is it that Rob Zombie made a bunch of regular humans more demon-like than an actual bunch of demons in a black comedic adult cartoon? The difference between the Firefly clan and IMP is that the Fireflies are unambiguously bad people. Period. Their only purpose in life is to torture/kill as many people as possible. And they're just as venomous toward each other as they are to their victims. By picking a lane and sticking to it, Rob created a batch of people that you love to hate. Viv, being a SJW, isn't willing to depict truly awful things, so IMP are actually very very good people deep down! Moxxie and Millie really love each other, uwu! Blitzo is a dedicated dad to his adopted wolf furry-bait daughter, tee-hee! Stolas and Blitzo totally aren't in a toxic relationship, what are you talking about, you fucking homophobe?!

 

[ThisIsGonnaBeGood]

View attachment 8012604
Saw The Devil's Rejects for it's 20th anniversary earlier this week. How is it that Rob Zombie made a bunch of regular humans more demon-like than an actual bunch of demons in a black comedic adult cartoon? The difference between the Firefly clan and IMP is that the Fireflies are unambiguously bad people. Period. Their only purpose in life is to torture/kill as many people as possible. And they're just as venomous toward each other as they are to their victims. By picking a lane and sticking to it, Rob created a batch of people that you love to hate. Viv, being a SJW, isn't willing to depict truly awful things, so IMP are actually very very good people deep down! Moxxie and Millie really love each other, uwu! Blitzo is a dedicated dad to his adopted wolf furry-bait daughter, tee-hee! Stolas and Blitzo totally aren't in a toxic relationship, what are you talking about, you fucking homophobe?!

One of my favorite lines from Devil's Rejects is where the guy tries to get the jump on Otis, and he says, "You know, I was gonna take it easy on you, but you just had to be a hero!"
That's how you write a truly humorous, violent psychopath. The Fireflys are basically the Vees if Viv actually knew how to properly mix comedy with shock value rather than Val flip-flopping from being the worst thing ever to an uwu cutesy boy.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

Viv really gave up any interesting ideas for her ships huh?

Yeah because the idea of an overlord attempting redemption is right there with Alastor. You already got him at the hotel, for his own "mysterious" reasons. Now you just have to have his very strong beliefs of Sinners not being able to be redeemed be challenge by Charlie's beliefs. A good writer would take these concepts and slowly work their way through the show of Alastor becoming a different person than he was at his introduction by the end of the story.

But Viv doesn't really want her main charcaters to change. She like them how they are. She wants the world around them and circumstances to change for them. It's why Charlie herself is a stagnant character. She doesn't grow or learn throughout season 1; she was always right. It's solely the world around her that is at fault and anyone who challenges her is automatically 100% wrong. The one lesson she does learn is to forgive Vaggie for not telling her the truth and that's it. She doesn't use this as an experience of why it would be difficult for some people to forgive another. She doesn't even learn why Vaggie wants to be a "better'" person than she was before. It's something that Katie Killjoy from the pilot brings up:
Charlie is still very ignorant to the fact of what being "good" actually entails. She just wants Sinners to be "good" so they can get to Heaven and not be exterminated. If the exterminations were to stop, would she still try to attempt to redeem Sinners?

 

[Aib Ld]

Semirelated to the whole convo but I hate how media lately is like 'what if the devil was good?". Dude was the corrupter. He was the obstacle in Jesus' path. The demon is behind the dangerous sin to have. That thing was behind all the bad things behind humanity, the source of all evil, and people still want to play him up as 'uwu cutesy boy that did no wrong'.
Hell (lol), an interesting topic on that question would be trying to redeem him for the very last, since he is the biggest sinner and is the fallen angel. But Viv would rather make Lucifer Stolas v2 than making an interesting topic and making Charlie question herself. And I barely know shit about Helluva Boss.

It just seems weird to have Adam be a fallen angel going from what I hear about leaks when Lucifer is right there since the start.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

It just seems weird to have Adam be a fallen angel going from what I hear about leaks when Lucifer is right there since the start.

That's just a popular fan theory. Adam probably won't become a Sinner in the actual show because that would mean Viv would have to make him a complex three dimensional character instead of one-dimensional douche that is supposed to be a representation of her ex-boyfriend. It's why Adam supposedly dislikes his son Abel. It's why it will probably be revealed that Adam tricked the poor misguided seraphim Sera into signing off the exterminations. He's just the bad guy that you want the good guys to beat.

 

[Red flaming panda]

This entire show was fucked since day one. The whole premise of the show revolves around forgiveness, yet the creator is a woman who clearly harbors a seething hatred for people. You guys have seen the way Viv interacts online, the type of shit she believes, and whatnot.

How can someone like her produce a show about forgiveness in good faith? And how am I supposed to buy into this idea of forgiveness when all these characters come off as completely useless retards or assholes with how poorly written they are?

TL;DR: Shit show that wasted acting talent on a whores garbage fanfiction.

 

[Random Internet Person]

Don’t think anybody posted this.

 

[ThisIsGonnaBeGood]

If the exterminations were to stop, would she still try to attempt to redeem Sinners?

We know from that leaked script page that Emily's VA posted that there will come a point where she and Charlie will try to get the denizens of Hell to redeem themselves, while explicitly mentioning that Heaven now supports the idea.
Of course, that could just be a fake leak considering the source, but this series has proven how it has worse opsec than Steven Universe.

 

[make_it_so]

Interesting video that dives into the topic of morality of HH and its main problem, the lack of consistency

This line from that last section of that video really sticks out to me: "I grew up with it, but, I realize now, that it didn't grow up with me."

I wonder how many Zoomers or early Gen Alphas were drawn in to Hazbin excited at the prospect of seeing complex and heavy subjects addressed in a medium they all loved (comedic animation), only to be severely let down by the final product. Going by just how many Hazbin critique videos have been put out by these kids, there certainly seems to be quite a few.

View attachment 8012604
Saw The Devil's Rejects for it's 20th anniversary earlier this week. How is it that Rob Zombie made a bunch of regular humans more demon-like than an actual bunch of demons in a black comedic adult cartoon? The difference between the Firefly clan and IMP is that the Fireflies are unambiguously bad people. Period. Their only purpose in life is to torture/kill as many people as possible. And they're just as venomous toward each other as they are to their victims. By picking a lane and sticking to it, Rob created a batch of people that you love to hate. Viv, being a SJW, isn't willing to depict truly awful things, so IMP are actually very very good people deep down! Moxxie and Millie really love each other, uwu! Blitzo is a dedicated dad to his adopted wolf furry-bait daughter, tee-hee! Stolas and Blitzo totally aren't in a toxic relationship, what are you talking about, you fucking homophobe?!

Eh, I can understand Viv not wanting to go in that direction, though. For the majority of viewers, IMP acting like the Fireflies would move them from merely being bad guy protagonists to full on irredeemable monsters. Especially since at the end of the day, for the IMP crew the whole killing humans thing is just a job.

What should be explored more I think is that Blitzo and company being Hellborne should have a pretty alien morality system when it comes to killing humans. Remember, being creatures originating from the afterlife and based on their interactions with Sinner souls, to them humans should be these eccentric and volatile creatures who wholly outlcass Hellborne like themselves in terms of both social hierarchy and power level, but who also go through this weird squishy phase of their existence where they're immensely vulnerable. So in a weird twisted way, knowing that the people they kill either wind up in paradise or wind up in Hell where they can become powerful Overlords, the crew should probably view themselves as doing their targets a favor or giving them a power boost.

Semirelated to the whole convo but I hate how media lately is like 'what if the devil was good?". Dude was the corrupter. He was the obstacle in Jesus' path. The demon is behind the dangerous sin to have. That thing was behind all the bad things behind humanity, the source of all evil, and people still want to play him up as 'uwu cutesy boy that did no wrong'.
Hell (lol), an interesting topic on that question would be trying to redeem him for the very last, since he is the biggest sinner and is the fallen angel. But Viv would rather make Lucifer Stolas v2 than making an interesting topic and making Charlie question herself. And I barely know shit about Helluva Boss.

You're addressing something that was brought up in another video I saw awhile back, and this issue applies not just to Lucifer but also to all the other Deadly Sins we see in Helluva Boss. Mainly, that their characterization and how they're used makes no sense.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

Semirelated to the whole convo but I hate how media lately is like 'what if the devil was good?".

To play devil's advocate. The reason a lot of media has been doing that lately is an attempt to be edgy for the most part. But in most cases, it's more of a response to how so many people use religion (like Christianity given in the West it's the most predominant religion) as a justification for horrific acts or as an abuse of power.

Thats also why we see gay people say they'll embrace Hell since it's more of spite towards zealotry.

In the case of Hazbin Hotel, Viv just thinks it's quirky and edgy while also having a liberal view on things like how institutions are only bad because the mean people are in charge and them being replaced with someone nicer will mean things will be better (not happened yet but notice how Heaven is much nicer only because of Adam's death and Pentious arriving in Heaven. Hell Adam, Lute, and his whole crew are the only bad people in Heaven aside from "Lilith")

 

[SpiderBitch]

Semirelated to the whole convo but I hate how media lately is like 'what if the devil was good?". Dude was the corrupter. He was the obstacle in Jesus' path. The demon is behind the dangerous sin to have. That thing was behind all the bad things behind humanity, the source of all evil, and people still want to play him up as 'uwu cutesy boy that did no wrong'.
Hell (lol), an interesting topic on that question would be trying to redeem him for the very last, since he is the biggest sinner and is the fallen angel. But Viv would rather make Lucifer Stolas v2 than making an interesting topic and making Charlie question herself. And I barely know shit about Helluva Boss.

It just seems weird to have Adam be a fallen angel going from what I hear about leaks when Lucifer is right there since the start.

I mean, its an annoying thing that media does with plenty of characters that are supposed to be evil villians. 'Oh actually Cruella was the good guy all along', 'oh actually orcs have been innocent all along' fuck offfffff
And they dont even do it in a 'hero in their own story but the villian in plenty others' way, the narrative almost always expects us to 100% believe theyre actually in the right. As far as ive heard only the penguin show actually has a villian protagonist without completely destroying the character.
Doing it with the literal devil himself is at least a lil funny in an ironic sense.

That vox song isnt great but still a decent amount better than most hazbin songs. In general the villian songs are stronger, i dont even remember any of the 'good guy' songs except for loser baby.

Also one thing i do really like about the worldbuilding is that the hellborn appear to not have (immortal) souls while humans do. Reminds me of those older fairytales, with mermaids living longer than humans but turning into seafoam when they die instead of getting an afterlife while (good) humans go to heaven.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

We know from that leaked script page that Emily's VA posted that there will come a point where she and Charlie will try to get the denizens of Hell to redeem themselves, while explicitly mentioning that Heaven now supports the idea.
Of course, that could just be a fake leak considering the source, but this series has proven how it has worse opsec than Steven Universe.

What I'm trying to get at is that Charlie still has a very rudimentary understanding of being good and redemption. We can see that with how she goes about her "exercises". She has a simplistic worldview on how and why people should be better, and doesn't understand that this is not going to work with every person she comes across.

If this was just a character flaw that she has to work on, that would be fine. But it really seems like the show won't address that as a character flaw.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

I mean, its an annoying thing that media does with plenty of characters that are supposed to be evil villians. 'Oh actually Cruella was the good guy all along', 'oh actually orcs have been innocent all along' fuck offfffff
And they dont even do it in a 'hero in their own story but the villian in plenty others' way, the narrative almost always expects us to 100% believe theyre actually in the right. As far as ive heard only the penguin show actually has a villian protagonist without completely destroying the character.

The Maleficent movie straight up turning King Stefan into a psychotic, genocidal, power-hungry scumbag that mutilated Maleficent and turned her ""evil"" genuinely pissed me off.

Like it started out interesting because he seemingly did it to fake her death and also become king, which not only protected her from the last kings orders that she had to be killed, but also enabled him to stop the kingdoms invasion of fae land. But no he was just power-hungry and evil and she fuckin kills him at the end.

Why? Why is the only way writers can make villains sympathetic is to straight up make them not villains? Either the heroes are the reeeeeeeeal villains or there was some other unmentioned, even worse villain that makes the titular villain not looks so bad, like in Cruella.


The Penguin was a massive outlier because it never actually whitewashes Ozwald. Sure he has a sob story and hopes and dreams, but he's always shown to be a manipulative conniving opportunistic little shit that kills anyone who gets in his way, friend or foe, from episode 1 to the finale. You understand him, but he's still the villain.

It's about his rise to power as a kingpin from the gutters, and part of you is rooting for him because he's the protagonist, but he's still a horrid irredeemable person. He reminds me of a less principled Tony Soprano, more or less.

By the end of the show you're just waiting for Batman to show up and beat the shit out of him, which was the intention. Hell the final scene of the show is literally this;

 

[ThisIsGonnaBeGood]

By the end of the show you're just waiting for Batman to show up and beat the shit out of him, which was the intention. You understand him, but he's still the villain.

I'm just gonna use this opportunity to shill the Japanese live-action Death Note film trilogy. They do a much better job at keeping Light firmly as the villain whereas the anime starts almost fanboying him after a while, and the ending is way better.