Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

[InJailOutSoon]

Back on topic, that's what's likely going to be her arc for the season, assuming she has one, essentially meaning aside from Charlie, all the hotel females' characters are going to revolve around relationships. CherrixPentious, NifftyxBaxter, and VaggiexCharlie, though that was always the case with the latter. Granite the men aren't exactly any better. Pentious and Alastor have stuff going on for them, but we've hardly seen anything for Angel Dust and Husk, well besides bondage.

Pretty much all the female characters of these two shows only get development when a man is involved. Charlie is probably the only one spared by this because she is the main character so the show has to follow her.

And I guess Carmilla gets spared by this as well. It's funny; she gets not only two duets but her own song. Meanwhile Vaggie gets a duet, a reprise with her girlfriend that was Charlie's and Lucifer's song, and a line in a couple of ensemble songs. Why even have a VA that can sing if you're barely going to have her sing?

And it looks like the second season will be a similar ordearl; Vaggie will get one duet with her girlfriend and be a part of a lot of group songs.

 

[Friendly Primarina]

Im so embarrassed by the fact that a full team of animators didnt catch up on something like this in the first place

Speaking as a non-artist looking in from the outside, this seems like a mistake that is extremely easy to make. I've seen professional artists whose skill and talent I admire make this mistake. I take the stance that if they can fall into this mistake, even if very rarely, anyone can.

If what we've heard about Spindlehorse's working conditions are true, I'm not really surprised that a whole team of overworked animators didn't spot it, especially since it isn't the main focus of the shot. I'm not excusing the way Viv runs Spindlehorse, I'm just saying I can see how this might have happened.

 

[Strawberry Kiwi Propel]

Pretty much all the female characters of these two shows only get development when a man is involved. Charlie is probably the only one spared by this because she is the main character so the show has to follow her.

And I guess Carmilla gets spared by this as well. It's funny; she gets not only two duets but her own song. Meanwhile Vaggie gets a duet, a reprise with her girlfriend that was Charlie's and Lucifer's song, and a line in a couple of ensemble songs. Why even have a VA that can sing if you're barely going to have her sing?

And it looks like the second season will be a similar ordearl; Vaggie will get one duet with her girlfriend and be a part of a lot of group songs.

Saw a reddit post on r/CharacterRant that defended Millie, and when people bring up that her character is exclusively tied to relationships, the OP argued the same could be said about Blitzo and others.

What that user doesn't understand is the difference between Blitzo and majority of Hellaverse men for that matter vs. Hellaverse women like Millie is that relationships for the men enhance their own characters that would allow an in depth analysis on them as an individual. Any establishment of individuality towards a female feels sideline, or not as important as their relationship itself. Vaggie, for instance has elements that would make her her own person, like being a former Exorcist, and being judgmental towards about everyone, but those get undermined in favor of her being Charlie's girlfriend foremost. Angel Dust is a man who is broken over the fact that he's in a situation he can't escape and uses drugs to cope pretending he is okay despite that. He masks his trauma by over sexualizing himself as his defining personality trait, alongside his sass. His relationships with Valentino and Husk are integral to how his character develops, but they don't override the presence of his characterization to the point where he has little business being in the show if they weren't there.

 

[man_made_of_meat]

Speaking as a non-artist looking in from the outside, this seems like a mistake that is extremely easy to make. I've seen professional artists whose skill and talent I admire make this mistake. I take the stance that if they can fall into this mistake, even if very rarely, anyone can.

If what we've heard about Spindlehorse's working conditions are true, I'm not really surprised that a whole team of overworked animators didn't spot it, especially since it isn't the main focus of the shot. I'm not excusing the way Viv runs Spindlehorse, I'm just saying I can see how this might have happened.

Of course! And it has happened thousands times before also before computer animation was a thing (there is this very famous instance for example, in the original Snow White movie from 1937, where they did overdraw a third arm on her on a frame). Also, this specific frame is so busy, it s easy to overlook over something like this if you are not an animator and if you are not very versed about anatomy and proportions. But, like you also mentioned, there are several allegations regarding the team being overworked and underpaid, and i will still point out that, if in the 1930 redrawing an entire cel was a huge pain in the ass, on a tablet it would take you less than 1 min

(Funny fact, that worker that fucked up the Snow White's arm was consequently fired because of this)

 

[The Nothingness]

The Halloween merch this year is definitely a hit and miss, with some characters I understand why was chosen and others that I can't. An acquaintance of mine was able to give an explanation for why a character was chosen for this horror icon...except Wally. Maybe that's why he didn't get a poster like the rest of them.

Also I do find it funny that Vassagio, who is supposed to be a more focused character in season 3, didn't get merch while a background character and canonically dead guy did. My guess is that the parrot didn't get a lot of his merch bought in the other runs.

The lack of horror icons from the Universal or Hammer films is kind of disappointing. Rolando as the Gill-man or Moxxie as Lon Chaney's Phantom are no-brainer choices while Fizz could have been the Christopher Lee version of Frankenstein's monster.

I can't wait to nitpick about animation errors and why shots looks off. You know what I'll start right now. This is why you have to be careful when you decide to do different line art color with characters.
View attachment 7997133
Also those wings aren't angled right and they don't even looked attached to Emily.

The head shape and smiles of Emily and Charlie are exactly the same they might as well be palette swaps.

It's astonishing how much more chemistry Charlie has with Emily than Vaggie. She can pout in the background all she wants whenever they hold hands. It's not gonna make her more interesting.

Back on topic, that's what's likely going to be her arc for the season, assuming she has one, essentially meaning aside from Charlie, all the hotel females' characters are going to revolve around relationships.

I can picture how this upcoming season goes for Vaggie. She becomes jealous of Charlie spending time with Emily, leaving Vox to corrupt and later brainwash Vaggie. Then you get the trope in the season finale battle where Charlie doesn't want to hurt the woman she loves

 

[Smity Werbenjagermanjensen]

Meanwhile Vaggie gets a duet, a reprise with her girlfriend that was Charlie's and Lucifer's song, and a line in a couple of ensemble songs. Why even have a VA that can sing if you're barely going to have her sing?

And it looks like the second season will be a similar ordearl; Vaggie will get one duet with her girlfriend and be a part of a lot of group songs.

It's really obvious by now that Viv never had any real set plans for Vaggie, she was going to be Angel's girlfriend, before Angel was made gay and Vaggie became a close friend of Charlie instead (Entirely excusable, these were in ancient times before the pilot was even a rough series of ideas), then the pilot crew started pairing Charlie and Vaggie as a couple which Viv made official halfway through production (That combined with her not really standing out all that much caused a good amount of people to think they were just friends from watching the pilot alone, but hey the pilot had a ton of stuff it needed to cram into 30 minutes, some characters were bound to get the short end of the stick, and tons of things change so early into a show's production, such as how Jessie originally going to die at the end of Breaking Bad's first season.)

But finally Viv decided to throw out Vaggie's backstory of being a Sinner who was a prostitute from El Salvador and turned her into a former Exorcist because of it being a popular fan theory, all while giving Vaggie nothing to do outside of helping Charlie and even skipping over all the character drama that could ensue from her backstory because nobody gives a shit she killed thousands of Sinners and only Charlie cares about how she lied to her.

Even tiny arcs the show gives her are ignored, like what @Strawberry Kiwi Propel said, Carmilla dramatically loosens her hair during their sparring session to teach Vaggie a point, only for Vaggie to have a ponytail at the season finale and now the second season.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

I can picture how this upcoming season goes for Vaggie. She becomes jealous of Charlie spending time with Emily, leaving Vox to corrupt and later brainwash Vaggie. Then you get the trope in the season finale battle where Charlie doesn't want to hurt the woman she loves

From the leaks that we saw, it seems like Lute is going to try to kill Vaggie to get back at Charlie, which is so disappointing as this could be a perfect foil for Vaggie to overcome. But instead she is just a stepping stone for Lute to get to the real person she absolutely despises which is Charlie now. Not Vaggie who she has a longer history with. Not the exorcist she stabbed the eye out and ripped the wings off of. Not the one that left her trapped under a buidling where she had to tear her own arm off to escape from and that probably prevented her from getting to Adam in time.

Like, how much more interest would it be for both Vaggie and Lute if Lute attempted to kill Charlie instead? Not only because that's the princess of Hell, but it would be Lute's last one-up on Vaggie? She would win this imaginary contest of being better than Vaggie because you better believe she absolutely hates the fact that Vaggie was once Adam's "top girl".

But finally Viv decided to throw out Vaggie's backstory of being a Sinner who was a prostitute from El Salvador and turned her into a former Exorcist because of it being a popular fan theory, all while giving Vaggie nothing to do outside of helping Charlie and even skipping over all the character drama that could ensue from her backstory because nobody gives a shit she killed thousands of Sinners and only Charlie cares about how she lied to her.

It's like they thought just having an this one idea for Vaggie would just be enough for her character. Yeah, we know Vaggie is an exorcist...and that's it. How did she feel about being an exorcist? Were her feelings for Adam and Lute always as it was now, or was it different before she got cast out? How does she feel about the other exorcists? Does she feel bad for having to fight them? Why did she spare that one sinner when she did? Does she have any remorse for killing who knows how many countless souls in Hell? Why was she so afraid to reveal to Charlie that she was once an exorcist? Why did she keep it a secret from her for over three years? And there's even more questions that can be asked, but are never given any answer and never will.

And that's a shame really because Vaggie should be one of the most interesting chatacters of the cast. But instead they give her nothing, except a rushed character arc that had nothing to do with her. "Vaggie, you need to fight for love, not vengeance". Bitch, she was already doing that. She had no interest in wanting to fight the exorcists. She's only doing it BECAUSE of the woman she loves. Don't pretend like this is some groundbreaking development for her.

What is it going to be for season 2? How she should trust Charlie because she loves her? Great. I can't wait for Vaggie to learn the lesson that she is already applied in her life because everything Vaggie does is for Charlie. She really is the Millie of Hazbin. Actually...no. Cause Millie got at least a little something else that didn't rely solely on her husband.

 

[Smity Werbenjagermanjensen]

It's like they thought just having an this one idea for Vaggie would just be enough for her character. Yeah, we know Vaggie is an exorcist...and that's it. How did she feel about being an exorcist? Were her feelings for Adam and Lute always as it was now, or was it different before she got cast out? How does she feel about the other exorcists? Does she feel bad for having to fight them? Why did she spare that one sinner when she did? Does she have any remorse for killing who knows how many countless souls in Hell? Why was she so afraid to reveal to Charlie that she was once an exorcist? Why did she keep it a secret from her for over three years? And there's even more questions that can be asked, but are never given any answer and never will.

Hence why Viv is an absolute moron for, we know what the proposed first season was, it was almost entirely character focused, and the extent of Heaven's involvement was going to be Charlie being told by Adam at the start of the season that they missed their killing quota and the next extermination will be in six months, nothing further.

I said it like a year ago ITT, but if Viv wasn't an absolute moron you could have waited for Heaven to be relegated to S2, had the episode where they go to Heaven be the third or fourth episode, and have easily dedicated the next two episodes entirely around Vaggie, diving deeper into her time as an Exorcist, the consequences of her lies, and especially have it to where the other characters treats her like the plague, a mixture of hatred and fear to where absolutely nobody will talk to her assuming they don't drive her out of the hotel entirely, which is only encouraged by Alastor since he views Vaggie as the biggest roadblock in his attempts of manipulating Charlie.

She is eventually forgiven by the end of the season of course, but it would make her past actually matter.

 

[ThisIsGonnaBeGood]

I can picture how this upcoming season goes for Vaggie. She becomes jealous of Charlie spending time with Emily, leaving Vox to corrupt and later brainwash Vaggie. Then you get the trope in the season finale battle where Charlie doesn't want to hurt the woman she loves

Nah, that would actually be somewhat entertaining, and everything involving her character is vanilla squared.

 

[Outer Space Traveller]

Is this season a ripoff from the plot of (Ultimate) Mortal Kombat 3? Shao Khan & the Outworld army invading Earthrealm? I mean, crackpot aside, it made me think so. But Satan should be Shao Khan, not the faggot television.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

Hence why Viv is an absolute moron for, we know what the proposed first season was, it was almost entirely character focused, and the extent of Heaven's involvement was going to be Charlie being told by Adam at the start of the season that they missed their killing quota and the next extermination will be in six months, nothing further.

I said it like a year ago ITT, but if Viv wasn't an absolute moron you could have waited for Heaven to be relegated to S2, had the episode where they go to Heaven be the third or fourth episode, and have easily dedicated the next two episodes entirely around Vaggie, diving deeper into her time as an Exorcist, the consequences of her lies, and especially have it to where the other characters treats her like the plague, a mixture of hatred and fear to where absolutely nobody will talk to her assuming they don't drive her out of the hotel entirely, which is only encouraged by Alastor since he views Vaggie as the biggest roadblock in his attempts of manipulating Charlie.

She is eventually forgiven by the end of the season of course, but it would make her past actually matter.

It is weird how almost everyone reacts the same way to the reveal of Vaggie being an exorcist. It would have been more interesting if we got different reactions from each one, with everyone coming the their own terms on the situation. But because we have to speed run to the the epic battle between Heaven and Hell, we just have to have everyone be fine with it. And the only one get to have process the fact that Vaggie is an exorcist is Charlie, and how its done is...off to me.

I would have had Charlie been almost overly positive about it. Like make it a fact that she isn't bothered by it at all, and constantly reassuring Vaggie that she is fine. Then when she's alone, that's when she breaks down. Because she does feel hurt by this. She is upset that Vaggie never told her the truth, but she hates even more that she is feeling this way. And have Charlie learned that it's okay that she feels negatively about it. She shouldn't have to hide that, especially from her girlfriend. I feel like that would have been a much more interesting conflict for Charlie's character of being this constant overly positive person with a satifising conclusion of her being able to tell the people she's close to when something does upset her.

Also, I just realized that the rest of the hotel cast didn't get the same musical reveal like Charlie did of Vaggie being an exorcist so...that must have been an awkward conversation when they got back from the club.

 

[Strawberry Kiwi Propel]

Hence why Viv is an absolute moron for, we know what the proposed first season was, it was almost entirely character focused, and the extent of Heaven's involvement was going to be Charlie being told by Adam at the start of the season that they missed their killing quota and the next extermination will be in six months, nothing further.

I said it like a year ago ITT, but if Viv wasn't an absolute moron you could have waited for Heaven to be relegated to S2, had the episode where they go to Heaven be the third or fourth episode, and have easily dedicated the next two episodes entirely around Vaggie, diving deeper into her time as an Exorcist, the consequences of her lies, and especially have it to where the other characters treats her like the plague, a mixture of hatred and fear to where absolutely nobody will talk to her assuming they don't drive her out of the hotel entirely, which is only encouraged by Alastor since he views Vaggie as the biggest roadblock in his attempts of manipulating Charlie.

She is eventually forgiven by the end of the season of course, but it would make her past actually matter.

Heaven is a weird case, because Viv said in the past before the show got picked up that it was always going to be a central focus of the story, and yet she kept making everything about it a mystery or give vague info about its aspects. Hence, the audition sheet leaks were legit for the fact we didn't know who Adam was prior to them. That's one thing about the show's production I yearn for a confirmation: if the general from the original Overture was supposed to be an early version of Adam or not. They both have beards, the general sported a smugged smile that Adam would have, but the main difference between him and Adam's pilot silhouette is their horn shapes.

Look at Owl House. In the original pitch, Belos didn't exist. His role as emperor was given to this larvae-like abomination who had 3 councilmen speaking for him, with one of the councilmen serving Belos' antagonism towards Luz, and relationship with Lilith. I wonder if that's what Viv originally intended. Adam just carried out the exterminations, and a separate character managed them, only to merge the two for series Adam.

And there's the whole war with Heaven plot line as the basis of it stems from the revelation that they can be killed. If Lute's audition sheet were anything to go by, it was supposed to have been common knowledge that Exorcists can be harmed with their weapons. Angels had the upper hand due to being more powerful than demons. Never mind the contrivance behind canonizing Carmilla's involvement with her cameo in the pilot. You're telling me she killed the Exorcist, ran to shelter, was allowed access, said shelter having spare clothes for her (I mean she could've been wearing clothes underneath her combat outfit I guess), and was chillin after the Extermination's over, not immediately rushing out to make sure her daughters are still alive. Will forever puzzle me why Viv decided to expand her of all characters, especially when she only had 8 episodes to work with, and she and her fans constantly yap about the staff not knowing if they were getting a Season 2.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

Never mind the contrivance behind canonizing Carmilla's involvement with her cameo in the pilot. You're telling me she killed the Exorcist, ran to shelter, was allowed access, said shelter having spare clothes for her (I mean she could've been wearing clothes underneath her combat outfit I guess), and was chillin after the Extermination's over, not immediately rushing out to make sure her daughters are still alive. Will forever puzzle me why Viv decided to expand her of all characters, especially when she only had 8 episodes to work with, and she and her fans constantly yap about the staff not knowing if they were getting a Season 2.

Let's also not forget the five or so other exorcists that were there when Carmillia killed one. They just let her get away with that. They couldn't even give Adam a description on who killed one of them. Also, I guess Carmilla was lucky enough that it was only her and daughters in that vicinity. No other sinner was there to witness what she has done.

And the whole motive of why she doesn't want to reveal that she killed an exorcist to others makes no sense. She's an arms dealer that produces and sells ANGELIC weapons. The only thing that can permanently kill Sinners. If she wants to keep the people she cares about safe and not lose souls she owns (because that's basically the one thing overlords have to worry about during extermination day), why wouldn't she try to keep all angelic weapons she find hidden deep away where no one can get access to and find a way to permanently destroy them. Carmilla is probably the most developed of the female cast besides Charlie, but that doesn't automatically mean that she's a well written character.

 

[AnOminous]

And the only one get to have process the fact that Vaggie is an exorcist is Charlie, and how its done is...off to me.

It's because it's a bunch of bullshit and comes from nowhere. Who cares? She just ruined the only lesbo relationship in the show to turn Vaggie (still a stupid name) into something she never was. Vivz is a goddamn idiot. In the good version of what this show should have been, Charlie was Don Quixote. Vaggie was Sancho Panza, the sensible one who knew Charlie was a complete idiot but wanted to protect her anyway.

Instead we got this dumb shit.

 

[Smity Werbenjagermanjensen]

Carmilla is probably the most developed of the female cast besides Charlie, but that doesn't automatically mean that she's a well written character.

To be fair it is very difficult to find a well written character in either Hazbin or Helluva, regardless of their gender, and like how S2 of Helluva smashed any potential every character had to bits, I have a hunch the same can be said for S2 of Hazbin, one known example being that Sir Pentious' reason for being in Hell is extremely lame.

 

[Strawberry Kiwi Propel]

Let's also not forget the five or so other exorcists that were there when Carmillia killed one. They just let her get away with that. They couldn't even give Adam a description on who killed one of them.

All the more reason why the Exorcists whose names aren't Lute are plot devices that only exist to perform the Exterminations. It'd be nice to know what they're like the other 364 days of the year. If Vaggie's former look is any suggestion, the Exorcists all sported the same hairstyle, and if they still wear their battle gear sans helmet like Lute does, then how do they appear themselves to the rest of Heaven?

Not asking for much, just a little more meat to their bare bone existence. Another thing regarding Lute's audition lines is that there was a chain of command between the Exorcists as one of them had the rank of Major, and was threatened to be demoted. Final product and Lute's pretty much the only authoritative figure after Adam as Vaggie was merely referred to as one his "top girls". The trial scenes in S1E6 and S2E2 could have more weight on the Exorcists' duties in Heaven if more were present, but they're more than likely only going to appear when they getting ready to depart and enter Hell.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

Look at Owl House. In the original pitch, Belos didn't exist. His role as emperor was given to this larvae-like abomination who had 3 councilmen speaking for him, with one of the councilmen serving Belos' antagonism towards Luz, and relationship with Lilith. I wonder if that's what Viv originally intended. Adam just carried out the exterminations, and a separate character managed them, only to merge the two for series Adam.

The Owl House pretty much did what Hazbin Hotel should have done in its first season: focus on establishing the characters and setting before making the second season more about the conflict with the main antagonist.

That show's creative team knew they needed to take their time with their first season in 19 episodes, while Vivzie's team thought they could rush the plot in 8 episodes.

 

[GoodWinSon]

"By God, It's St. Michael with the steel chair!"

It is said that the Undertaker and Kane could easily take over Hell, but neither wants to rule the world's largest gay bar.

 

[ThisIsGonnaBeGood]

All the more reason why the Exorcists whose names aren't Lute are plot devices that only exist to perform the Exterminations. It'd be nice to know what they're like the other 364 days of the year.

All of them except Lute seem to just be mindless yes-women who do whatever the person in charge says.
They intentionally gave them stereotypical dumbass voices for the one time they talked.

 

[man_made_of_meat]

I remember Vivzie mentioning she was planning at least 6 to 8 seasons of Hazbin Hotel, if they keep speed running through all major points of conflict as a neverending escalation, what s left? What comes after heaven and hell being openly on the battlefield? When the shows keeps evolving at this speed, they will be done potentially in 4 seasons, I would estimate...