Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

[Castoreum]

My husband and I were watching a new anime. A few episodes in, we discovered we got tricked into watching fujo bait. My husband just blurts out, "Man, you can just feel the fujo reluctance to world build." I laughed so hard cuz I thought of HB/HH.

You know what I find to be really funny? When not only defenders but Viv herself say that you can only truly appreciate and enjoy Helluva Boss when the story is completely finished. Not only is that a weak way to deflect criticism (a bad episode is still a bad episode), but it actually works against Helluva Boss. The show is much worse and the flaws become way more noticeable when you watch the episodes all together. For example, the whole "love" that Stolas and Blitzø feel for each other just come out of complete nowhere all of sudden, and essentially the build up to it is happening in between the break of the first season's episode 6 and episode 7; not in the actual show itself.

Ngl, that just sounds like a desperate attempt at retaining an audience that is hemorrhaging viewers.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

Ngl, that just sounds like a desperate attempt at retaining an audience that is hemorrhaging viewers.

If anything, it was the catalyst that started losing viewers. That, and episode 8 being stuck in production Hell.

 

[FK009]

You can find the fan comic it's referencing here (NSFW)

Thanks but I was more thinking of a TLDR of the premise. I would rather not read a comic that would make Lovecraft himself think the writer had issues.

 

[Friendly Primarina]

Thanks but I was more thinking of a TLDR of the premise. I would rather not read a comic that would make Lovecraft himself think the writer had issues.

Sorry, I handled it poorly.

Too late, now, but here's a TL:DR:
Artist Dracreloaded created a troll r34 comic in which Moxxie gets brain damage and Millie has to cope with caring for her now vulnerable husband. A different artist (lizards0ck) wanted to do "a gentler take on the Moxxie brain damage concept" (his words).

 

[GoodWinSon]

"a gentler take on the Moxxie brain damage concept"

Ah yes the classic "My spouse was reduced to a babbling, diaper wearing mess" trope. Perfect for wholesome family-friendly stories about killing Epstein and murder suicides.

 

[ssaneenah]

Whats the comic referencing? I am legitimately curious at this point.

Comic dump and Drac discussion start roughly pars this post.

 

[ChiliChumper]

Something that frustrates me about Vizzie, and creators like her, is how it just feels like they have all this talent and motivation, but seem to half ass everything.

Visually, I like her style. There are aspects of the show where I will give her her flowers and say she has creative ideas. I like her palettes. Some of her designs are unique and fun. She has a good grasp on her style and I'd be lying if, at the very least, it didn't draw me in. The show stands out.

What I can't fucking stand is her writing. It's damn near the exact same problem I had with stuff like the MCU; creative directors who don't know if they want to make something heavy and serious, or full of stupid quips and fart jokes. It's absolutely infuriating and all you get is a shitty jumbled mess that steps on it's own toes every 10 minutes, falling flat on it's face and breaking it's nose.

It's also so unbelievably obvious she panders to her fanbase of retarded, lonely Hot Topic womanchildren in the worst way possible, stuffing relationships and petty little romance drama and tragic backstories into characters who don't need them. Why does Fizzaroli, some gay little tertiary jester, feel like he has more development and relevance to the story than Millie? Why has it become the Blitzo and Stolas Ass Eating power hour? Woman what the fuck are you doing?

These exact same issues dragged down shows like Rick and Morty and Adventure Time. Shows that should've been stupid little romps to laugh at for teens and preteens respectively suddenly got torpedoed by this insistence to shoehorn in "mature topics" like a dysfunctional family, sexual consent, and "the complexities of relationship." What the fuck? Shut the fuck up, put the fries in the bag, and stop trying to be something you're not.

Equally hilarious when I think back to my childhood and consider all the media, MADE FOR KIDS, that handled heavy topics with tons of class. Land Before Time, Fox and the Hound, Bridge to Terabithia. And as far as adult animation, I don't even think South Park was this needlessly crass.

Her work, and the fanbase that cultivated it, just reek of people who want to be perceived as mature adults that discuss nuanced topics, but they just remind me of tumblr teens and kids on xbox who think topics like rape and running around screaming cock and faggot make them seem "grown -up."

I really hope, in her merger with Amazon, somebody will whoop her/her teams ass and right the ship, but I heavily doubt it.

 

[cryptidoof]

you can only truly appreciate and enjoy Helluva Boss when the story is completely finished. Not only is that a weak way to deflect criticism (a bad episode is still a bad episode)

Counterexample: Avatar: The Last Airbender.

Remember Avatar Day?
Everyone hates Avatar Day. Second most-skipped episode after The Great Divide.
But you know? Even the FILLER EPISODES of Avatar do more legwork than any one episode of a Vivziepop IP.

At the very least, Avatar Day sets up that people can, and will, hate the Avatar for reasons beyond Aang's control. There's nothing he can do about it. It's life. Not everyone is going to love you right off the bat, especially if they're wary of past actions from you or your ancestors.

The Great Divide gives us insight into Aang's problem solving skills. Even if he's pulling shit out of his ass he makes it sound just believible enough to get by. He's smart with his words when he has to be, and can make up shit on the fly.

Vivziepop crumbles where Avatar shines: concrete worldbuilding that draws you into the world, solid character motivations that leave room for further development and (gasp) fun side adventures! Which I can assume, is what Viv wanted from her world. Something beloved and easily remembered. Characters doing wacky shit because "they're muh characters". Maybe set up the FUCKING WORLD FIRST?

My point is, even a beloved show has shit. But at least the shit is fun and makes attempts at giving people a reason to watch.
Vivziepop fails at basic storytelling and it's so disappointing to see play out at this scale. What are people getting attached to? What fictional world do you want to live in? Why? Flimsy writing destroys good stories .. not that Hazbin was ever good in the first place.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

What I can't fucking stand is her writing. It's damn near the exact same problem I had with stuff like the MCU; creative directors who don't know if they want to make something heavy and serious, or full of stupid quips and fart jokes. It's absolutely infuriating and all you get is a shitty jumbled mess that steps on it's own toes every 10 minutes, falling flat on it's face and breaking it's nose.

It's also so unbelievably obvious she panders to her fanbase of retarded, lonely Hot Topic womanchildren in the worst way possible, stuffing relationships and petty little romance drama and tragic backstories into characters who don't need them. Why does Fizzaroli, some gay little tertiary jester, feel like he has more development and relevance to the story than Millie? Why has it become the Blitzo and Stolas Ass Eating power hour? Woman what the fuck are you doing?

Vivziepop crumbles where Avatar shines: concrete worldbuilding that draws you into the world, solid character motivations that leave room for further development and (gasp) fun side adventures! Which I can assume, is what Viv wanted from her world. Something beloved and easily remembered. Characters doing wacky shit because "they're muh characters". Maybe set up the FUCKING WORLD FIRST?

My point is, even a beloved show has shit. But at least the shit is fun and makes attempts at giving people a reason to watch.
Vivziepop fails at basic storytelling and it's so disappointing to see play out at this scale. What are people getting attached to? What fictional world do you want to live in? Why? Flimsy writing destroys good stories .. not that Hazbin was ever good in the first place.

I am reminded by something my scriptwriting teacher once told a class: because a lot of people know how to write, many try to be writers; only a few are actually good at it.

 

[FK009]

I am reminded by something my scriptwriting teacher once told a class: because a lot of people know how to write, many try to be writers; only a few are actually good at it.

The worst part is when the people that aren’t good at it still go all in and flounder trying to make it. It’s depressing to hear and read about on blogs. Doesn’t help that thanks to fanfiction, some people actually think that because some bozos liked their work online, that they can pursue a writing career, and then they wonder why their shit manuscript isn’t getting picked up.

I remember taking a few writing classes in college(One based professor said that most of us would not be writers, but we were more than welcomed to send him our published books if we decided to prove him wrong), because I was in STEM they required us to take some form of other classes. I was adequate, enjoyed it, and my family, the liberal members at least, said that I should give it a try if I had the passion. (My conservative aunt said that if I did pursue the written word, to have a day job to pay the bills because many of the greats did not make it big until after they were cold in the ground) I said to them that I had the heart of a writer, the soul of a writer, the issue was I didn’t have the talent of one (that and I’m a straight white christian male, no publisher would touch me) Instead I went the corporate STEM route, and I impart my knowledge to others: know yourself, and know how good you really are, then act accordingly.

If there is one toxic thing that needs to be tempered in today’s age, its the follow your dreams message. Too often, there are people that do so and end up in a dark place. For every Viv, Glitch, and Lackadaisy, there’s 1000000 Johns and Janes that weren’t so lucky

 

[ChiliChumper]

The worst part is when the people that aren’t good at it still go all in and flounder trying to make it. It’s depressing to hear and read about on blogs. Doesn’t help that thanks to fanfiction, some people actually think that because some bozos liked their work online, that they can pursue a writing career, and then they wonder why their shit manuscript isn’t getting picked up.

I remember taking a few writing classes in college(One based professor said that most of us would not be writers, but we were more than welcomed to send him our published books if we decided to prove him wrong), because I was in STEM they required us to take some form of other classes. I was adequate, enjoyed it, and my family, the liberal members at least, said that I should give it a try if I had the passion. (My conservative aunt said that if I did pursue the written word, to have a day job to pay the bills because many of the greats did not make it big until after they were cold in the ground) I said to them that I had the heart of a writer, the soul of a writer, the issue was I didn’t have the talent of one (that and I’m a straight white christian male, no publisher would touch me) Instead I went the corporate STEM route, and I impart my knowledge to others: know yourself, and know how good you really are, then act accordingly.

If there is one toxic thing that needs to be tempered in today’s age, its the follow your dreams message. Too often, there are people that do so and end up in a dark place. For every Viv, Glitch, and Lackadaisy, there’s 1000000 Johns and Janes that weren’t so lucky

I don't want to get too metaphysical, but I've always felt that part of this stems from the fact that alot of modern audiences, but specifically artists, do not respect writing.
Art is just sooooo hard. You have to learn so much. You have to draw so many sketches and have to slave away countless hours on shitty doodles to improve your craft. Do you know how much time I've put into this?
Writing? Any monkey could write. "It's just words." "How hard could it be." There's this really serious and frustrating sense of smugness and condescension I see from alot of people who are good at art/drawing/etc. Because, at least to some degree, the words are already there. You aren't making anything new you're just rearranging them in a different way. Fuck prose. Fuck style. Fuck subtle literary symbolism, motifs, and nuance narratives and dialogues. I'll just get ChatGPT to do it! It's just letters and words!

And I feel that sort of thinking have created these fart-sniffing dipshits like Vizzie who DO have some level of talent with art, but think that that automatically makes them able to know how to write a good, solid story and characters.

What's worse is that alot of the audience of these types of people absolutely validate that sort of thinking. Who cares if the writing sucks! Look at the pretty pictures move! Look at the colors!

Alot of these kids and 20-30somethigns masquerading as adults wouldn't know good writing if it bit them right in the ass. They engage with slop like A Court of Thorns and Roses and think that's the pinnacle of literature. Fuck these simpletons.

 

[Outer Space Traveller]

And I feel that sort of thinking have created these fart-sniffing dipshits like Vizzie who DO have some level of talent with art, but think that that automatically makes them able to know how to write a good, solid story and characters.

What's worse is that alot of the audience of these types of people absolutely validate that sort of thinking. Who cares if the writing sucks! Look at the pretty pictures move! Look at the colors!

Alot of these kids and 20-30somethigns masquerading as adults wouldn't know good writing if it bit them right in the ass. They engage with slop like A Court of Thorns and Roses and think that's the pinnacle of literature. Fuck these simpletons.

Good point. Worldbuilding is necessary and I would risk saying it is something you got to have done before you even have your story ready. At the very least, where the story takes place.

I will give an ounce of credit on the team: I believe Vivianne did write about Hell and Heaven. She needed to flesh it, and how it would affect our world. Furthermore, does it work as a "Alice In Wonderland"/Narnia setpiece? Meaning, parallel world to ours, where there's interactibility? Of course. But what about humans who want to access Hell and do things in it? Take a concept from Doom, where Argent D' Nur, where you have a hellish landscape. Using "demonic" energy to solve an energy crisis on Earth. There is potential.

Even if it seems "boring", the writing has to be developed. I'm sure on GRRM's case, he didn't have Essos done by the time A Game of Thrones was published - just Westeros and the Free Cities of the Narrow Sea. "Essos" got its name only after A Feast of Crows was released, by 2008. So there is some leeway here and there. Yet you must absolutely need to have cultures, ideas and certain things laid down, even if you want to do "L.A. but gayer and written by a fujoshi".

 

[FK009]

Alot of these kids and 20-30somethigns masquerading as adults wouldn't know good writing if it bit them right in the ass. They engage with slop like A Court of Thorns and Roses and think that's the pinnacle of literature. Fuck these simpletons.

Want to know how my Prof knew some of us weren’t going to make is as writers? Most girls in the class fucking LOVED Harry Potter, thought it was amazing. He all but said ‘Y’all need to read better books’. I tried reading HP for the first time recently, and cringed at the opening, the prose was so bad. It is almost criminal that JKR has made billions off of HP, but I can’t blame a woman for cashing in on an idea. I can’t help but feel like it’s Lord of the Rings a bit, as the movies did bring in a much wider audience than the books alone.

But it’s not only that they think it’s easy, they truly think that they are good at it. And from limited attempts I’ve made, I can’t think of anything harder, you need to constantly be asking why X is the way X is or why would Y do Z in moment W. Writing can be easier when you’re in a group, but still damn hard. In my school days, I’ve seen teammates get swelled heads because they added something good, to someone else’s idea, and thought they were the gift to the team. No, Person A gave us the base, you just added a wall, you were able to improve what was there, you did not come up with the entire idea.

It’s why I tacitly respect Viv and people like Thomas Austruc, they may be shitty writers, BUT they can come up with a good base. If they got someone more detailed oriented to iron out the finer details, and weren’t such huge ideologues that needed spread their shit ideas, likely these threads wouldn’t exist.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

If there is one toxic thing that needs to be tempered in today’s age, its the follow your dreams message. Too often, there are people that do so and end up in a dark place. For every Viv, Glitch, and Lackadaisy, there’s 1000000 Johns and Janes that weren’t so lucky

It's definitely a mix of luck, talent, luck, money, and luck. You got to be in the right place at the right time with the right thing. And it will usually take multiple tries to achive that. It's just that most people don't have the luxury to spend the time and money to even get such a chance. Especially nowadays, since the market is oversaturated with everyone trying to be the next big thing.

 

[FK009]

It's definitely a mix of luck, talent, luck, money, and luck. You got to be in the right place at the right time with the right thing. And it will usually take multiple tries to achive that. It's just that most people don't have the luxury to spend the time and money to even get such a chance. Especially nowadays, since the market is oversaturated with everyone trying to be the next big thing.

Exactly this, especially with the Luck and Money aspect. Someone talented can easily be overlooked, or will need to turn to something else, because well, life is life, and people to need to actually survive and produce something that people will buy. And publishers don’t care about talent, because like JKR showed, hell like, 50 Shades showed, you apparently don’t need to be talented be successful, you just need the right idea.

 

[invisibult plus+]

*snip*

Part of the problem is that people like Viv see characters as dolls and stories as playing pretend with extra steps. They don't care about who their characters are as people, they just want to act out the same drama over and over again. To them, that's fun, even when it's not. Worldbuilding can be boring and tedious, especially to anyone uninterested in how worlds evolve. It's the story behind the story (which is why I can see why people like deepest lore to some extent). Researching Ars Goetia and voodoo doesn't mean a whole lot when you can't tie that information together, or you just ignore it once it gets inconvenient. So why not just make it LA and call it a day? That way, you have a perfectly functional doll house.

They don't really think or care about writing because, ultimately, they don't have anything to say. There are plenty of artists who respect writing as a craft (Genndy Tartakovsky, Brad Bird, etc), but they understand that ideas aren't just visual. They know that a subtle glance can communicate intent, like a highlight communicates light direction, or that foils can communicate ideas like values communicate space and form. Some people have a harder time with this transition, or vice versa, because that's just how people are wired. Others don't care, and they don't have to. Some think they never will, until they find that no one wants to play with them anymore because they made their stories too empty.

 

[ChiliChumper]

I tried reading HP for the first time recently, and cringed at the opening, the prose was so bad. It is almost criminal that JKR has made billions off of HP, but I can’t blame a woman for cashing in on an idea.

The one point I'll say is that it IS a series for children and preteens. I think on that front it's perfectly serviceable. The problem more stems from people usually women, cough cough who never progress past Harry Potter. You can see it in my aforementioned disdain for A Court of Thorns and Roses by Sarah Maas. You dislike Harry Potter? Try Harry Potter written by a white horny wine aunt. And people women eat this shit up. It was flying off the shelves at my local bookstore.

Vizzie's feels like she's in a similar boat. She never grew from the standpoint of literary knowledge.

Part of the problem is that people like Viv see characters as dolls and stories as playing pretend with extra steps.

You put this perfectly. You know what really cheeses me off about Helluva Boss? How genuinely schizophrenic and distracted the writing feels.

It's like you make a character or some little group, so you say okay I'll write a story about them. And then smack dab in the middle of the story you go "nah, I'm bored with this now, I want to play with this new toy now." It really feels like that's what she did with characters like Stolas and Fizz. She noticed the positive attention they were getting so she made them the focus. Or oops ya know what, I want to play with Millie now so let's just randomly make her pregnant, because that's new and exciting. It's like of halfway through Lord of the Rings, Tolkien said "nah fuck Frodo, fuck the Fellowship, let's talk about Galadriel's sex life for the rest of the book."

What's even lamer is that you absolutely can hop perspectives/focus among your characters. Lots of books and shows do it. It makes the world feel bigger and more alive, and that your main characters don't exist in a narrative vacuum.

Not with Vizzie. As you said it's all just dolls to her. She picks them up and puts them down not to flesh out the world or her grander ideas.

No she just get's fucking bored.

 

[FK009]

people usually women, cough cough who never progress past Harry Potter

Yeah, there’s a reason the Prof wasn’t putting bets on any in his class making it. Fun guy though. The girls thought it had great world building, so I asked them to explain the magic system, the exact world building, anything, and I became the most hated guy in the class. What is it with chicks and Hogwarts?

A Court of Thorns and Roses, is it bad in the sense that you literally can’t read it, or bad in the sense of HB/HH and it’s a slow motion train wreck you can’t look away from?

Not with Vizzie. As you said it's all just dolls to her. She picks them up and puts them down not to flesh out the world or her grander ideas.

No she just get's fucking bored.

Honestly, if this wasn’t backed by an actual company, I wonder if these would have ended up like Zoophobia.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

Well, this ought to be interesting. I'll admit that the hatedom for this show can be just as unhinged as the fandom, but I'm also curious to know if Sai actually thinks that Helluva Boss is a good show or not.

 

[didelphigina]

Well, this ought to be interesting. I'll admit that the hatedom for this show can be just as unhinged as the fandom, but I'm also curious to know if Sai actually thinks that Helluva Boss is a good show or not.

I'm already not liking this video and it hasn't even premiered yet. How many dollars you bet her "homophobic" takes are her reasonable criticisms, or better yet, her daring to question that Stolitz is an unforgivably toxic relationship that became one of the major reasons behind the show's decline in popularity and relevancy that even the most dedicated, strongest Stolitz soldiers are starting to agree upon? Criticizing the ship that made many people leave the show is not "homophobic". Is she homophobic because she's not glazing Stolitz to the high seas? Is she homophobic because she dare to say anything mean about poor, dindu-nuffin wrong Stolas? Is she homophobic because of her complaints about him prioritizing an imp he only sees through a sexual and then manipulative lense over his daughter numerous times? Heck if I know.

I've watched through Artiece's HB videos. They weren't just blatant hatred for the show (at least, at first) but slowly did become such a thing by the time Seaosn 2 ended. Yeah, the hatedom for the show is as ridiculous and filled with easily sensitive genderspecials like with the defenders, but at least over here in KF, we can all express our anger and straight up exhaustion with the show without being dogpiled for it. The hatedom outside of KF is the opposite of that, really.

And we all know that "Unhinged queen" just translates to "She crashed out about the show prioritizing an unnecessary ship over an actual, engaging story and world.". Assuming here, though. We'll see in six hours on what her opinions are in the rant. I have a strong feeling she's either gonna defend the show till no end or don't like the show but