Guns good or bad

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Can you cite any credible sources or examples to support your position? Also, I'm pretty sure that a lot of people who seriously do want to do acts of extreme violence with a firearm are at least smart enough to shut the fuck up until after their background check goes through and they're off with the item. It's not always obvious to the average person if a particular individual is planning something, especially post-Columbine and 9/11, where pretty much any innocuous comment is treated in a ridiculously serious manner.

The most authoritative source that I could probably point towards would be the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), published by the American Psychological Association. The DSM lists neither psychopathy nor sociopathy as recognized mental disorders, but it does list antisocial personality disorder. There's a compiled list here of the conditions which are listed in the most recent addition of the DSM.

For what it's worth, I have never denied that there are people who could conceivably pass a mental health screening only to then go on a killing spree later. I do find it interesting that you seem to think that this is an argument worth putting forward though. Does something need to be perfect in order for it to be advantageous or at least worth considering? If so, then you could probably argue against just about any law or government policy.

One is a constitutional right, the other is not. Do you think it's fair to license people to allow them to post opinions on internet message boards?

In the United States, it is a constitutional right, although interestingly it is not one that originated in the US. The Second Amendment was in fact borrowed from the 1689 English Bill of Rights, and yet, guns are now virtually completely banned in the UK. Now, I'm certainly not suggesting that America should adopt such an approach, but this does at least speak to the fact that what we consider a 'right' depends largely upon societal and legal consensus. Simply declaring that something is a constitutional right isn't really an argument, unless you're limiting the conversation to an American legal context, which I am not.

Do I think it's fair to require people to have a license to post their opinions on the internet? No, but that's a hypothetical (and frankly hyperbolic) question that has nothing to do with the subject under discussion, which is gun laws.

Besides, treating firearms like we treat vehicles, with licensing, tabs, etc., is probably not a good idea, as governments have a vested interest in not allowing their subjects, er, I mean, "citizens," to be armed. This has been true of almost any government throughout history.

If this is true, then why do the vast majority of elected officials in the United States support the Second Amendment? I think you'll find that in reality, unless you're talking about tyrannical regimes, most governments largely reflect public opinion when it comes to gun laws. In the UK for instance, the vast majority of people don't own guns, and as such, they are fine with guns being largely banned. In the US, the gun culture is a lot stronger, and the law reflects that.

And what kind of European countries are supposedly "freer" than the US, firearm regs aside?

How about any European country without US levels of mass incarceration? On a less flippant note though, I think we really need to establish what we mean by freedom, because a lot of people seem to have disagreements about it without realizing. For me, freedom is best defined as the power that you have to make decisions over your own life, and along this line, there are several European countries that I think can be said to be more free than the US. The Netherlands for instance is one of the most open and permissive countries in the world, and they boast some of the highest levels of happiness.

Could you go rollerblading naked through a busy street with your Muslim transsexual lover while smoking marijuana in Texas? I don't think so. Checkmate!

The fucking UK? Pfff, they're actually convicting people of "hate crimes" for making idiotic videos of dogs saluting Hitler or posting "offensive" rap lyrics on Instagram. And the police had to struggle to find someone to pretend to be offended to get a conviction.

I think this is a separate issue from guns though, because I see no evidence that it would be any different if the citizens of the UK were allowed to have guns. The reason that you don't see these idiotic 'hate crime' cases in the US is because you have the First Amendment. If you didn't have the First Amendment, who's to say that the easily offended wouldn't try to pull this sort of thing in America? I certainly can't envision a scenario where Americans would take up arms against the government because some idiot got arrested for a dumb video, could you?

RKBA in itself is not the sole indicator of personal and political freedom in any given country or state, but it most certainly does have a strong correlation.

I just don't see the correlation. Yemen has high rates of civilian gun ownership, yet their society is far more repressive than any country in Europe.

One last exhibit: the states with the strictest gun control are generally lower on the personal freedom scale compared to other states, with California and New York being the two worst. The bottom five are also Democrat mainly, go figure. The bottom ten have Kentucky but that's about it for the non-Democrat states in that range.

https://www.freedominthe50states.org/

According to a libertarian think tank, perhaps, but as a former libertarian myself, I've come to reject the way that libertarians tend to define freedom. I certainly don't think that California and New York are less free than Alabama and Mississippi.
 
We already have more than enough laws here in the US. The problem is that the people who are supposed to enforce them often drop the ball on it.

Putting gun owners on double secret probation or making illegal things more illegal isn't going to change anything. But people insist on "more laws" every time without knowing what the fuck they're talking about. And this stuff costs money to enforce. Which leads to a higher prison population in the first place.

Talking up 2A is good for winning political office in the short run. Most politicians don't truly care, Donald Trump, a guy born and raised in NYC, probably doesn't either but he sure knows it's good for his image. A lot of people are trying to change our attitude towards firearms and they're not the type who should be near any kind of office.

A lot of our legal system and traditions, even RKBA, was from English common law. It's ironic that they pretty much eliminated English common law yet the colonies adopted it in large. And if your government is jailing people for stupid videos you're pretty much fucked. People are pissed off in the UK about that and rightly so, but it needs to get worse before any kind of hypothetical insurgency could possibly get off the ground. But .gov is doing itself zero favors there.

Actually the Netherlands has been cracking down on pot tourism by foreigners, as the stuff is tolerated and not actually legal. I supposed if firearms are outlawed in the US, they may not be able to confiscate most of them, let alone they may end up in a similar quasi legal status. I think Yemen is like this? They haven't had a stable or functional government for a long time. People need to rely on themselves for protection and not some underfunded or practically nonexistent government entity. The whole point of different states is to allow for experimentation, sure, there's a lot of Bible humpers in the South but at least it's more rural so you don't have to deal with them. People's attitudes do change over time. Public nudity is still looked down upon throughout the US so that ridiculous scenario would not be acceptable anywhere here. Other than that I doubt anyone would care that much. I just love how Europeans think we're ass backwards everywhere, but not so. Pot isn't even a crime in my state, it's a $50 fine at most, but that may not last. You reallly shouldn't smoke weed anyway, but it's none of my business what you put in your body.

California government is retarded to the point where they paint the fucking streets white because it feels good to be "fighting climate change." They are hardly a positive example to look towards. High population density is also a major roadblock to personal freedom due to the perceived need to sacrifice it for the "betterment of society."

And one more thing before I call it quits on this thread, there already are people trying to get rid of or curtail the First and Fourth Amendments, often in the name of "fighting terrorism" or " social justice." The easily offended are also deluded into believing that this makes them heroes, and, like the gun control advocates we have here, have absolutely no cares about how things will go in the long run. They would trade away essential liberties for good feels in a heartbeat just because they can. These kinds of people need to be told off every chance. Might be too late for the UK and perhaps Europe, but America can still save itself at this point.

The water is already there, but the horse just ain't gonna drink.
 
We already have more than enough laws here in the US. The problem is that the people who are supposed to enforce them often drop the ball on it.

If that is the case then this is merely a matter of enforcing existing laws rather than proposing new ones, but the substance of the discussion is still the same. It is still ultimately a debate about the merits of a particular policy when/if that policy is actually put into practice.

I should probably stress at this point that I am not coming at this from an American angle (you might have guessed), and so I am not particularly invested in what America in particular does regarding it's guns. My interest in this is much more general, and as somebody who lives in Britain but who has American family (from the Deep South no less) I think I might have a unique perspective on this subject that others here might not have.

Having been exposed to both British and American gun culture, I've come to the conclusion that this ultimately comes down to trade offs. In America, you have the freedom to own and keep firearms with relatively minimal restrictions (which is cool and all), but this comes at the cost of higher gun deaths, inner city gang shootings, and an increasingly militarized police to help deal with all of it. In the UK, there are very restrictive gun laws (which I admit for some people can be quite a drag), but with this restriction comes the positive trade off that the UK is able to maintain a largely unarmed police force, doesn't have anywhere near the level of gun violence as the US, and is generally a much safer place to live.

Where do I stand on this issue? I would say somewhere in between. I don't favor the level of restrictions that the UK government places upon guns, but on the flip side, I wouldn't want to see the UK become as lax as the US. I take the view that the government does have a legitimate role in mitigating negative externalities, and there are many potential negative externalities associated with guns getting into the wrong hands.

The UK is certainly embarrassing itself with it's overzealous political correctness and Orwellian crackdowns on 'hate speech', but I would reiterate that this is an entirely separate issue from guns. California would most likely go much, much further down this road than the UK has if the First Amendment didn't stand in their way, and it just isn't realistic that the citizenry of California would abandon their comfortable lives to take up arms against the government over something like that. It's a fanciful notion, frankly.
 
I should probably stress at this point that I am not coming at this from an American angle (you might have guessed), and so I am not particularly invested in what America in particular does regarding it's guns. My interest in this is much more general, and as somebody who lives in Britain but who has American family (from the Deep South no less) I think I might have a unique perspective on this subject that others here might not have.
You don't have a unique perspective. What perspective does "having family" from the US provide you? I have family that owns farmland, doesn't mean I have any better insight on the price of alfalfa than anyone else because I'm not working that farm.
 
Guns...
Guns are like the internet or a sword or a pen about to write a book. They are an extension of the soul. Stop guns if you like, but it's the same human intention that causes men to use the previous mentioned items in also negative ways.
People only care about something after it's demonstrated it's a direct threat to themselves. The problem is not the what being used, but why.

With guns I pew-pew
On the internet, pew-pew
My soul is a blade.
 
You don't have a unique perspective. What perspective does "having family" from the US provide you? I have family that owns farmland, doesn't mean I have any better insight on the price of alfalfa than anyone else because I'm not working that farm.

It's not merely having relatives that live in the US that provides me with more perspective. It's the fact that I have been exposed to both US and UK gun culture in a way that most people here probably haven't. Contrary to popular belief, the UK does have a gun culture (albeit a small one), and as someone who comes from a rural background myself, I do have some first-hand experience with it.

The point I'd like to stress here is that there is a debate to be had about the proper relationship that people should have towards firearms that exists outside a wholly US context, and I'm not sure if you really appreciate that. I also think it's interesting that you decided to question my perspective rather than address my arguments.
 
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I also think it's interesting that you decided to question my perspective rather than address my arguments.
I'm not gonna argue with you anymore because you've got your mind made up and nothing I say is going to change it. I've made what arguments I'm willing to make in the past few pages and you're free to read them at your own leisure.
 
I'm not gonna argue with you anymore because you've got your mind made up and nothing I say is going to change it. I've made what arguments I'm willing to make in the past few pages and you're free to read them at your own leisure.

If my mind was really so impervious to other points of view, why would I willingly seek them out and address them on the merits of their arguments? Why would I approach this discussion with the explicit consideration that I see it as a matter of balancing trade-offs when I could have instead just evangelized about the merits of one position? I have no interest in continuing this exchange if you don't, but I don't think it is I who is being closed-minded here.
 
You have to be careful saying a thing like that- there's no nuance with some people, and the dumbest of anti-gun activists will call that a loophole.
They call everything a loophole. Take the assault weapons restrictions here in CA; They banned pistol grips, detachable magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, collapsible stocks, forward grips, and muzzle brakes on rifles, ostensibly because these features by themselves are somehow bad or dangerous. When the manufacturers turn around and make rifles without these features, instead of recognizing it as compliance with the law and claiming victory, the same politicians call it a "workaround" or a "loophole". That's very telling. It's basically an outright admission that getting rid of those features was never the actual goal. The goal was to get rid of as many semi-automatic rifles as possible, so they targeted defining features of the most popular and numerous rifles in circulation.

Basically anything that allows any manufacturer to keep selling guns is a "loophole" to anti-gun activists.
 
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Let's be honest here: gun control folks want to ban all guns. That's their ultimate goal. They don't like hunting, self-defense, or even the idea of people not relying on the government from womb to tomb. Freedom scares these people because freedom is dangerous. That's why they want to ban speech they disagree with and don't want anyone to voice any opinion that runs counter to their ideology.

That's why they use bogus statistics like "96 percent of Americans want more gun control." as if that makes it valid somehow. We were never a democracy for a reason. Democracies are mob rule where the minority is at the whims of the majority.

So yeah, everything is a loophole with them. That's why I personally refuse to compromise (read: concede) with any more of my rights since they will never be satisfied until everything that can be a weapon is banned.
 
I recommend everybpdy to educate themselves on guns

americangunfacts.com


There should not be any kind of regulation on guns whatsoever. Including recognizing the right to own semi and fully automatic firearms and laungeable explosivs.

If you dont agree youre a cuck btw
 
Throughout my life I've come to notice that the people who are vehemently anti-gun are usually the least informed about weapons in general. Everyone who owns guns, understands them, has shot them, etc. is generally okay with their existence, and people seem to realize they're less scary and the owner is in full control of the firearm. If these gun owners/users call for anything, they perhaps call for minor adjustments on tighter regulation, but nothing very radical. People who call for their ban are often the least informed on how to operate them, their utility, what different general types (shotgun, long rifle, pistol) are good for in various use cases.

For example, you commonly hear "well you don't need anything more than a shotgun to defend yourself." There isn't just one single type of gun that is "the shotgun." Shotguns, like every other firearm, come in various sizes of munitions (measured in gauges) and rounds have different grain, muzzle velocity, and there's also stopping power differences per round when you consider things such as slugs vs buckshot. The action varies as well: semi auto, pump, double barrel, single shot, etc. Saying "you really don't need more than a shotgun" doesn't make you sound like an educated Washington Post reader, it just makes people realize just how clueless you are about firearms in general, and therefore how little your opinion should realistically be valued concerning firearms. Do you want someone who has never driven or been inside a car to tell you what car you should buy? No? Exactly.


Here's another test I like to do on people. Which gun would you rather have in your community?

M1 Garand:
gun1.png


Armalite-style 5.56 rifle:
gun2.png

If you chose the wooden stock gun because it's not black and doesn't "look as scary" (racist) then congratulations, you're a moron, because that wooden stock gun (M1 Garand) is actually a more dangerous gun due to problems like hairtriggering, clip-feeding issues causing thumb injury (look up Garand thumb), etc. and also the fact that it shoots a larger caliber round (30.06). However, everyone just wants to ban guns for the most idiotic reasons imaginable (such as what they look like) and people can't even get THAT right. One in my recent memory is this article for example, the writer says that a tiny semi-automatic bullpup is a "sizeable automatic weapon." Give me a break. Modern guns are actually far safer with additions like safeties and 2-stage triggers. The push to make guns operate more simplistically and also increase their safety and reliability is something that most manufacturers strive for. They have lots of practicality and use cases and they're not being built to some standard of trying to help muslims get high scores. Anyone who thinks so has not done their homework.

tl;dr Most people who don't like guns couldn't tell you a single correct thing about guns, and probably can't even tell you why they don't like them or what they want to change in gun legislation.
 
Semi-auto rifles are lightweight, easy to manaveur and tend to have lower recoil than a shotgun or battle rifle (which are a giant pain in the ass to use indoors) and have a higher capacity than pistols/revolvers/shotguns. If a gang of people are coming at you or say you have a riot in your area, you want to have as many rounds as you can in a magazine. Why limit it to shotguns and revolvers if you don't have to? I like shotguns and revolvers but if I need to grab my AR or AK for a large group of attackers, I'd be very glad I had it.

Here are cases of people using AR15's to defend their homes

https://youtube.com/watch?v=mDVcidBGaJ4https://youtube.com/watch?v=5zfysHwGVJohttps://youtube.com/watch?v=QLhp6OGq2ko

A fortified door is also useful. You don't want them to even get in to your house at all. I would agree about needing an automatic to survive a a home invasion.. but you want to prevent things from even getting to that point.
 
Guns are bad because fuck you. The boot of the state will crush you and you will enjoy it.
Guns are actually ok if they are put into the right hands, you wouldn't trust a criminal with a gun. Guns are useful in that the police don't come right away, you need something to defend yourself in the moment, the police travel at light speed.
 
Guns are good boys who dindu nuffin.

Besides, how else are people supposed to give lead-based reparations payments to POC in need?
 
Maybe the question is more what makes someone snap instead of guns.
In Switzerland there is a strong gun culture ala Murika, but you don't see any mass shootings there. In my country, there are a lot of hunters with rifles that only use their guns to hunt animals.
I love America, but, the division produced by the mass media, extreme individuality and violent gangs make guns look like the source when instead they would be a symptom.
Guns don't kill alone, people use them to kill.
 
Guns are perfectly fine and good, the problem is that we have a large urban underclass who are constantly killing each other over drug money, this group is largely already prohibited from owning firearms for prior serious offenses, typically, yet they get firearms anyway because one of their dumbass relatives/friends/girlfriends buys them a gun. This problem would be solved by actual, serious enforcement of straw purchase laws, not the NFA, "assault weapon" bans, pistol registries or other assorted nonsensical bullshit. Spree killings are statistical anomalies and largely aren't worth worrying about.
 
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