Culture Goodbye to the Vikings - Surprisingly rational revisionism

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There was no such thing as a ‘Viking’ in the medieval period. Use of the term emerged in the 19th century. The word wicing occurred in Old English and víkingr in Old Icelandic, but were used very differently, to mean something like ‘pirate’. Academics nod to this when we assert that ‘viking’ was a job description rather than an ethnicity, but we don’t always take on board the full implications of this distinction. In Old Icelandic víkingr could be applied to any pirate regardless of where they came from or when, or what language they spoke; they might be Estonians or Saracens, for example. It is also noteworthy that it is almost never used to describe the people who we today call ‘Vikings’. Many of the men labelled ‘Vikings’ in textbooks and popular histories were warriors led by kings on military expeditions with clear political objectives, such as the Great Heathen Army that fought Alfred the Great or the Norwegian force that accompanied Harald Hardrada to his death at Stamford Bridge in 1066. Calling such people ‘Vikings’ would be like calling 18th century British, French or Dutch naval officers ‘pirates’ simply because they wore vaguely similar hats and sailed vaguely similar ships to Blackbeard.

The word ‘Viking’ seems to have entered modern English in the early 19th century, when medieval Icelandic literature was beginning to be translated into major European languages. Initially it was used in the original medieval sense, but by the 1860s it was starting to be used to describe all early medieval warriors from Scandinavia. The final development, the ‘ethnicisation’ of the word that allows the use of terms such as ‘Viking farms’, ‘Viking towns’ and ‘Viking women and children’, is much more recent and has gradually crept up since the Second World War. This is insidious; by linking military prowess and savagery to an entire ethnic group, it encourages its appropriation by racial supremacists.

No such thing


The issue with the term is not merely semantic. This conception of ‘the Vikings’ seriously distorts our understanding of European history. We have tended to group almost all Scandinavian activity between the 790s and the mid-11th century together under the ‘Viking’ label, creating a distinct ‘Viking Age’ and an imagined ‘Viking’ culture and identity. The evidence, however, does not support this analysis.

First, the Scandinavian homelands were extremely varied in environment, social structure and history. Denmark is flat and fertile, its islands cleared, by the year 800, of predators for millennia. It had a complex settlement pattern that was at least as sophisticated as anything found in England. Danish soldiers and settlers coming into ninth-century eastern England found landscape and settlement patterns very like those with which they were familiar and people who shared very similar economic and social structures. They were not savage barbarians penetrating a more civilised realm. The Danish lands had the greatest capacity to sustain population in Scandinavia and it is likely that the majority of Scandinavians lived in Denmark in this period. Norway, whose western fjords provide the stereotypical backdrop to the ‘Vikings’, was a relative backwater with a tiny population and was most important as a route, the ‘North Way’, to the Arctic regions and the luxury goods, such as furs and walrus ivory, that they provided.

Heathens


The surviving textual sources for the period all come from outside Scandinavia, but some fairly consistent patterns emerge. In the late eighth and the ninth century Irish, English and Frankish chronicles generally refer to Scandinavian aggressors as ‘heathens’ and this, rather than any ethnic identity, seems to have been what struck the victims of these attacks as significant. The 793 raid on Lindisfarne, often said to herald the ‘Viking Age’, is described in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle thus: ‘The ravages of heathen men miserably destroyed God’s church on Lindisfarne with plunder and slaughter.’ In the following year the Annals of Ulster recorded ‘the devastation of all the islands of Britain by the gentiles’.

The previous two or three centuries had witnessed what seemed to be the unstoppable growth of Christendom, both East and West. This had been interpreted as part of God’s plan and its apparent reversal caused consternation among the ecclesiastical writers who have provided us with the record. As Alcuin of York wrote: ‘Never before has such terror appeared in Britain as we have now suffered from a pagan people, nor was it thought that such an inroad from the sea could be made.’

From the surviving evidence from Britain and Ireland it is, at first, quite hard to distinguish opportunistic raiding, to which the term ‘Viking’ might have been applied by contemporaries, from political action. The attack on Lindisfarne is often presented as an opportunistic raid, but in fact the force that executed it remained in Northumbria over the winter and was defeated in a pitch battle the following year, some of their ships having been destroyed by a storm.

The Carolingian sources clearly distinguish diplomatic and military interaction between the Franks and the Danish kings from seaborne raids, over which the latter had little or no control. The Royal Frankish Annals record Charlemagne establishing a fleet and coastal defences against pirates in 800, for example. But by the later ninth century most of the recorded action in the British Isles seems to be political and led by kings looking to conquer territory.

The decades around 900 see polities established by Scandinavian dynasties in Britain and Normandy and the adoption of Christianity by their leaders at least. Contemporary sources cease to describe the attackers as ‘heathens’ and tend to name leaders and refer to armies by their place of residence, whether that be East Anglia or Dublin.

In about 903, shortly after the contested start of Edward the Elder’s reign, for example, the Chronicle tells us that his cousin and rival Æthelwold ‘induced the army among the East Angles to break the peace and they harried over all Mercia until ... they crossed the Thames’. Eventually they were pursued home and their king, Eohric, was killed. East Anglia was, at this date, part of the Danelaw. This group’s forebears had come to Britain from Scandinavia in 865 and they had been settled in East Anglia for more than 20 years, so it is likely that Eohric and most of his warriors had been born and brought up in England as Christians.

The ‘Viking’ dynasty that ruled Dublin and contested rule of Northumbria with the descendants of Alfred in the tenth century were descended from men who had left Scandinavia in the middle of the ninth century. On the maternal side most of them probably had local ancestors. They had very little in common in behaviour, genetics or belief systems with the raiders of the 790s. Indeed one of their greatest kings, Óláfr Cúarán, who had at times been king in Northumbria as well as Dublin, retired to the monastery of Iona in 980. At least one of his granddaughters was a nun.

Age old


What is usually seen as the final phase of the ‘Viking Age’, from the 990s to the 1070s, saw military and diplomatic relations between Christian kings in both the West and in Scandinavia. By this date Denmark at least had become part of Latin Christendom. Characterising a ruler like Cnut as a ‘Viking’ is nonsensical. He attended the imperial coronation of Conrad II in Rome in 1027 and founded and endowed churches across both his English and Danish realms. Similarly, Harald Hardrada, often termed ‘the last of the Vikings’, was the brother of a saint and spent much of his career in Byzantium. His invasion of England in 1066 was a political action in which he was supported by factions within the kingdom he was invading. Eleventh-century Scandinavian kings such as Cnut and Harald had far more in common with their successors in the 12th and 13th century than they had with eighth- and ninth-century heathen raiders.

Sporadic seaborne raiding on Britain and Ireland by small groups unconnected to any political or military action continued into the 12th century. Indeed, activity of this sort, classic ‘Viking’ behaviour, is perhaps more characteristic of this later period than it is of what we might consider the ‘Viking Age’ proper. These raiders originated from the Scandinavian diaspora in the Scottish islands. Hebrideans, and even Orcadians, like the infamous Sveinn Ásleifarson, plagued the coast of Ireland and western Britain for a century after the Norman Conquest; it was only the English invasion of Ireland that put an end to it. The Western Isles in particular had little capacity for supporting anything beyond subsistence farming and predation on rich lands was the key to local chieftains maintaining their position at home.

Goodbye!


The construct of the ‘Vikings’ conflates and blurs the distinction between eighth- and 12th-century pirates. Tenth-century kings based in Dublin and Christian rulers such as Cnut, all of whom lived in very different societies, had different belief systems and political and economic objectives. Each of these contexts needs to be dealt with on its own terms and not within a 19th-century construct that has more than a hint of racist essentialism to it. It is high time that historians, both academic and popular, ditched the Vikings as an outmoded and dangerous way of thinking. The Vikings never existed; it is time to put this unhealthy fantasy to bed.


Alex Woolf is a senior lecturer in History at the University of St Andrews.
 
Should probably be noted that Ibn Fadlan encountered these people in Volga Bulgaria and that they were Rus vikings. Just calling them swedes is actually confusing.
Fair, but its certainly true that the Eastern Nordics predominated among the Rus and had different burial customs than their Norwegian and Danish cousins, and while I confess I haven't read him in a while, I think my translation says Swedes.
 
Why do some people worship the vikings so much? They were a bunch of inbred, mushroom-piss drinking savages who raided unarmed villages and monasteries because they got their guts stomped in when they faced a real army, and eventually cucked out to the Catholic Church when they got offered land that wasn't in a frozen hellscape.

Some "fearsome warrior culture" they were, basically just being the Medieval-era's version of Somali pirates.
And rapists, they would rape a lot of women in their raids. Fuck the Vikings, how are they any different to England than a bunch of pakis? show up in numbers, rape our women and girls, feed off our nation whilst providing nothing in return, and bring their Godless culture with them. At least we fucked the Vikings off, the middle eastern issue is a work in progress.

Scotland saw them off though, couldn't handle the mad Celts, fucking losers. (although the real reason was Scotland is nowhere near as fertile for farming as England, so the hard fight would be for land that is little better than the shithole they came from, but eh, wrecked by drunk druids)
 
Nobody worth anything calls the middle ages "the dark ages" any more. The idea that the age was dark, merely because there were no philosophers prancing about on the head of a pin, is the worst sort of intellectual elitism. It's all Petrarch's fault; he saw the classical era as "light" and his own as "dark", and the term stuck. Later it was justified as a lack of written records, but that was kicked into touch as well once enough contemporary accounts came to light. Historians almost never use the term "dark ages" to refer to any period of the middle ages these days, not least because it is insanity to try and boil down a millenia of history, of the entire continent of europe, into a simplistic, judgemental moniker, is a ludicrous proposition.

I'm just glad none of you fuckers wheeled out The Chart.
 
Nobody worth anything calls the middle ages "the dark ages" any more. The idea that the age was dark, merely because there were no philosophers prancing about on the head of a pin, is the worst sort of intellectual elitism. It's all Petrarch's fault; he saw the classical era as "light" and his own as "dark", and the term stuck. Later it was justified as a lack of written records, but that was kicked into touch as well once enough contemporary accounts came to light. Historians almost never use the term "dark ages" to refer to any period of the middle ages these days, not least because it is insanity to try and boil down a millenia of history, of the entire continent of europe, into a simplistic, judgemental moniker, is a ludicrous proposition.

I'm just glad none of you fuckers wheeled out The Chart.
It realistically is a little more complex than that. Yes, an age of darkness didn't descend for a thousand years, but there was noticeable societal simplification and a period of lost skills that had been gradually occurring since the Crisis of the Third Century. The roman world wasn't completely destroyed, but people stopped building monumental feats of architecture and engineering, the centralized structure and administration was gone, and a lot of the classical scholarship was destroyed during that period both through decay and willful destruction. While new technologies like the scythe and stirrups were introduced that would radically change society, a lot of old te hnologies were lost for millennia.

tldr: it wasn't a dark age, more of a twilight
 
>The Northman comes out.
>Soy-ridden academic says these men were not real
>Autistic Highlander is officially the strongest man on earth. Again.
>Cope, Seethe, etc.
 
Because 1,000 years later we're still talking about them and their exploits from African to North America. Even Rus, the root word of Russia means Men Who Row.

PS, nobody will remember your name.
More accurately: 1,000 years later soyboys are fetishizing them, while everyone else sees them as the savages they were.

And not for nothing, but...why should I care if I am remembered or forgotten? Most people are forgotten after 4-6 generations. To be remembered throughout history in any form is an anomaly.
 
Even me asking you to go into excruciating detail about them suggests that they're not that important, since if they were they'd clearly be at least as well known to educated secular people as Paul, St Augustine, or Aquinas.
Fucking imagine using your own ignorance about historical figures as an argument for why they aren't important... because you (a demonstrable retard) haven't heard of them. You started that exchange asking for Zero to educate you, he did (quite well I might add) and then you go "pft well they can't be that important, I never heard of them."

Yeah, no shit you mong, that's what started all this. And it's totally valid to hold your "certain slip ups" against you, as it clearly shows you have no clue what you're babbling about. This is an absolute clinic on how to btfo someone in an internet argument.
 
And Socrates borrowed heavily from philosophers before him, yet there's a reason why he's considered more important than they are.
Aquinas is strictly a Western phenomenon standing on the shoulders of people who were globally effective. That you're unaware of them has everything to do with your personal ignorance, and nothing else.

Seriously. Athanasius, the Cappadocian Fathers, Hilary of Poiters, Cyril of Alexandria, Maximus the Confessor (according to Benedict XVI, at least) and Thomas Aquinas have the same exact honor of "Doctor of the Church" in the Roman Catholic Church-- but apparently they're all not as important as Aquinas?

And yes, these are internal squabbles among competing sects. I clearly struck a nerve since I'm questioning your faith, but arguably everything you describe is engaging in polemical battles rather than creating entirely new schools of thought.
And you move the posts again-- you asked for contributors to church doctrine and I gave you contributors to church doctrine. Now you want people who "create entirely new schools of thought", as if "creating an entirely new school of thought" in Christianity is something smiled upon within that sphere (hint: it's not-- the goal has always been to define and refine what constitutes the "true faith"; the theologians particularly revered are those who do so in a profound way that promotes extensibility of orthodox thought, and even Protestant reformers were looking to dig up what they thought was the "true faith" from what they viewed as a substantial amount of Catholic accretions).

You're not "questioning my faith". You're demonstrating that you don't understand the value of theological systematizations or the development of monastic life. You moving the goalposts from "give me some thinkers" to "tell me their global impact" to "tell me how they spread Christianity" to "name their contributions" to "give me these kinds of contributions" isn't some singular slip-up-- it's you demonstrating that you have no real standard for what you're looking for as satisfactory evidence against your claim or the means to appreciate most of what's presented to you. Your insistence on the early Middle Ages being "dark" has nothing to do with what's measurable, nor does it have anything to do with the practical value of the moniker.
 
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Fucking imagine using your own ignorance about historical figures as an argument for why they aren't important... because you (a demonstrable retard) haven't heard of them. You started that exchange asking for Zero to educate you, he did (quite well I might add) and then you go "pft well they can't be that important, I never heard of them."

Yeah, no shit you mong, that's what started all this. And it's totally valid to hold your "certain slip ups" against you, as it clearly shows you have no clue what you're babbling about. This is an absolute clinic on how to btfo someone in an internet argument.
What a very polite and civil person you are. I'm sorry I don't know about all of the esoteric random clerics who crafted your particular religious doctrine, clearly a lack of deep exploration into a topic that has little to no practical value is the standard by which people are classified as retards.

At least @Zero Day Defense engaged in an actual substantive discussion pointing out the inadequacy in my arguments, what exactly have you contributed to this conversation besides being his fluffer?
Aquinas is strictly a Western phenomenon standing on the shoulders of people who were globally effective. That you're unaware of them has everything to do with your personal ignorance, and nothing else.
Is he, bc i defer to you on that one if he is. It's true that my position comes from my ignorance of the specifics of early medieval christianity, but I have a niggling suspicion that more ordinary people will know of him more than the others. Why that is is a different topic entirely.

Seriously. Athanasius, the Cappadocian Fathers, Hilary of Poiters, Cyril of Alexandria, Maximus the Confessor (according to Benedict XVI, at least) and Thomas Aquinas have the same exact honor of "Doctor of the Church" but apparently they're all not as important as Aquinas?
Again, that's fine of they did, but I am telling you that Aquinas has had a greater influence on western philosophy in general than any of them. It may not be earned, and that's a separate discussion, but he is more taught in modern advanced philosophy courses than they are.

Also, not to be a dick, but Cyril of Alexandria and the Cappadocian Fathers are from the 4th Century, so if I was going to be playing by your standards I'd be mocking you for it much the same way you did me for saying Martin of Tours rather than Gregory of Tours. As a consolation prize, you can have Boethius, since he's venerated as a Saint for his philosophical contributions anyways.
And you move the posts again-- you asked for contributors to church doctrine and I gave you contributors to church doctrine. Now you want people who "create entirely new schools of thought", as if "creating an entirely new school of thought" in Christianity is something smiled upon within that sphere (hint: it's not-- the goal has always been to define and refine what constitutes the "true faith"; the theologians particularly revered are those who do so in a profound way that promotes extensibility of orthodox thought, and even Protestant reformers were looking to dig up what they thought was the "true faith" from what they viewed as a substantial amount of Catholic accretions).
Okay, that's a fair point, and my emphasis on new schools of thought rather than spiritual truth comes from the fact that I'm not a Christian nor have I ever pretended to be one. My interest in these men is on their impact on secular philosophy and the other humanities, which is why I'm still sticking to my guns on this aspect. I didn't mean to move goalposts, and I apologize if I did, as I've repeatedly tried to make clear during this conversation. I think we ultimately are talking past one another because we seem to hold different priorities on what we consider to be of intellectual value.
You're not "questioning my faith". You're demonstrating that you don't understand the value of theological systematizations or the development of monastic life. You moving the goalposts from "give me some thinkers" to "tell me their global impact" to "tell me how they spread Christianity" to "name their contributions" to "give me these kinds of contributions" isn't some singular slip-up-- it's you demonstrating that you have no real standard for what you're looking for as satisfactory evidence against your claim or the means to appreciate most of what's presented to you, because your insistence on the early Middle Ages being "dark" has nothing to do with the measurable or even the practical value of the moniker.
That's a fair point, but you're also misinterpreting my point, or at least oversimplifying it. I never said the Early Middle Ages were literally dark or unenlightened, only that a very specific period of time within what we define to be the Early Middle Ages was less active in terms of societal and intellectual discourse due to the general trend of societal simplification that was occurring during those times, and it was less sophisticated than later times because the medieval university system that spawned the later thinkers was a very complex system of intellectual discourse and exchange, even more so than what we know of the Classical academies. I've said this ad nauseum, and I find it difficult to see how my words can be misinterpreted unless you're intentionally trying to do so.

A bit off topic, but I'm also curious, do you believe that as a whole the technological, artistic, and architectural achievements of the former Roman World in the 6th and 7th centuries were equivalent to what was seen during the Pax Romana and the Carolingian Renaissance? I think personally that outside of the Eastern Roman Empire's churches built by Justinian, I would say it was less sophisticated, but I'd like to hear your thoughts if you're willing to share them.

I don't know about you, but I've actually enjoyed this conversation. I did learn something new, which is always good, even if it was taught to me with extreme condescension.

EDIT= I'm rereading some of my posts from last night, and I definitely was snarkier than I originally thought when i was writing this novella. My apologies.
 
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<Medieval European Historical Philosophy Sperging>

<Medieval European Historical Philosophy Sperging>

Holy Crap! The level of knowledge you two have on the subject of medieval European historical philosophy is on a another level. Where did you guys learn this stuff? I consider myself fairly well educated, but you two make me look like a special ed kid at the level of your discussion.

It realistically is a little more complex than that. Yes, an age of darkness didn't descend for a thousand years, but there was noticeable societal simplification and a period of lost skills that had been gradually occurring since the Crisis of the Third Century. The roman world wasn't completely destroyed, but people stopped building monumental feats of architecture and engineering, the centralized structure and administration was gone, and a lot of the classical scholarship was destroyed during that period both through decay and willful destruction. While new technologies like the scythe and stirrups were introduced that would radically change society, a lot of old te hnologies were lost for millennia.

tldr: it wasn't a dark age, more of a twilight
This is my understanding, as well. However, as I mentioned above, my understanding is fairly limited.

Fucking imagine using your own ignorance about historical figures as an argument for why they aren't important... because you (a demonstrable retard) haven't heard of them. You started that exchange asking for Zero to educate you, he did (quite well I might add) and then you go "pft well they can't be that important, I never heard of them."

Yeah, no shit you mong, that's what started all this. And it's totally valid to hold your "certain slip ups" against you, as it clearly shows you have no clue what you're babbling about. This is an absolute clinic on how to btfo someone in an internet argument.

If he's a retard I would hate to think what that makes the rest of us that don't have that knowledge. The unwashed ignorant masses?
 
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Holy Crap! The level of knowledge you two have on the subject of medieval European historical philosophy is on a another level. Where did you guys learn this stuff? I consider myself fairly well educated, but you two make me look like a special ed kid at the level of your discussion.


This is my understanding, as well. However, as I mentioned above, my understanding is fairly limited.



If he's a retard I would hate to think what that makes the rest of us that don't have that knowledge. The unwashed ignorant masses?
Speaking for myself, I picked a lot of it up reading older historical works on Roman and Medieval history, and took some courses in Western Philosophy and Early Christianity (up to the Edict of Milan, not later). A lot of it was also picked up from podcasts and recordings of university lectures you can find on YT. George Friedman, the professor I mentioned in my first post, was a professor of Medieval and Classical History at Yale and one of his courses from around 15 years ago was recorded and posted on YT. It's an interesting listen through, especially if you don't have the time or patience to read a lot like I find myself doing nowadays.

Anyways, back to the actual topic. Has anyone here read any of the Icelandic Sagas? Even if you were to discount all of the Norse technological and maritime achievements, those works alone would be enough to qualify them as a fascinating civilization.
 
My 2 cents on the meat of the major discussion between SK and ZDD, I think you two might actually be discussing the subject at cross-purposes. SK is looking at it from a majority secular lens. Whereas ZDD is looking at it from a secular, as well as religious perspective. SK is considering secular society and it's various elements, in comparison to prior, and subsequent periods, from a secular perspective, while acknowledging the religious influence to a limited extent. ZDD seems the secular and religious aspects of that time period to be inextricable intertwined as forming the basis for how things progressed into the subsequent period. Examining the given period from two mutually exclusive perspectives is going to prevent the two of your from seeing the influences and products of that time in a similar fashion. Both of your conclusions are correct from the argued perspective, but likely appear incorrect from the opposing perspective.
 
If he's a retard I would hate to think what that makes the rest of us that don't have that knowledge. The unwashed ignorant masses?
One can be a retard in a vast variety of ways.
What a very polite and civil person you are. I'm sorry I don't know about all of the esoteric random clerics who crafted your particular religious doctrine, clearly a lack of deep exploration into a topic that has little to no practical value is the standard by which people are classified as retards.

At least @Zero Day Defense engaged in an actual substantive discussion pointing out the inadequacy in my arguments, what exactly have you contributed to this conversation besides being his fluffer?
Being polite in internet slapfights gets you nowhere. What exactly do I owe you? You've done nothing except highlight how poor your dialectical skills are and rely on pure sophistry to make your points- moving the goalposts upwards of what, 5 times now? I had no dog in this fight whatsoever until I got pissed off at how incredibly insufferable your "argument" was. What more can I say to point out your inadequacies? They are plainly self-evident. I'm merely telling you to stfu before you make a bigger fool of yourself than you already have.

Also, thanks for proving you are literally no more polite than I am by instantly resorting to ad homs and calling me a dick sucker. I knew you would see the light eventually.
 
One can be a retard in a vast variety of ways.

Being polite in internet slapfights gets you nowhere. What exactly do I owe you? You've done nothing except highlight how poor your dialectical skills are and rely on pure sophistry to make your points- moving the goalposts upwards of what, 5 times now? I had no dog in this fight whatsoever until I got pissed off at how incredibly insufferable your "argument" was. What more can I say to point out your inadequacies? They are plainly self-evident. I'm merely telling you to stfu before you make a bigger fool of yourself than you already have.

Also, thanks for proving you are literally no more polite than I am by instantly resorting to ad homs and calling me a dick sucker. I knew you would see the light eventually.
I'm polite to people who attempt to engage civilly rather than coming out of the gate immediately throwing out ad homs and generally not interested in having a discussion. Those who give respect earn respect.

I didn't call you a dick sucker, btw, I called you a fluffer. For someone who demonstrates so much skill in that field I'd expect you to know the difference.
 
I think you two might actually be discussing the subject at cross-purposes. SK is looking at it from a majority secular lens.
Religious disputation among leaders when the states have a state religion is secular history. A 'majority secular lens' is a warped lens because it is anachronistic. To understand the people of the past, the way they think and feel and the positions they held, then you need to know the internecine squabbles that secularism has written off as bickering about superstition, because nations have split and warred over it.

If the humanities want to prove a human rights truth fundamental to all religious or moral systems, they have to at least acknowledge that their ideas came from somewhere. It's wrong to claim that all those religious people ever really meant to say was be cool bros, when the golden rule predates the secular philosophy which asserts that it's the only bit that matters, and the rest can be thrown away.
 
I'm polite to people who attempt to engage civilly rather than coming out of the gate immediately throwing out ad homs and generally not interested in having a discussion. Those who give respect earn respect.

I didn't call you a dick sucker, btw, I called you a fluffer. For someone who demonstrates so much skill in that field I'd expect you to know the difference.
Please, do enlighten me on how one fluffs without sucking dicks, in your vast knowledge of all things.

So you admit to stooping to my level? And all it takes is someone calling you a retard on the internet? Those are some convictions you got there bud. And you're right, I wasn't interested in having a conversation if it meant more of the same bullshit you were already throwing out. I much prefer just calling you a dummy and seeing you sperg lol.
 
Religious disputation among leaders when the states have a state religion is secular history. A 'majority secular lens' is a warped lens because it is anachronistic. To understand the people of the past, the way they think and feel and the positions they held, then you need to know the internecine squabbles that secularism has written off as bickering about superstition, because nations have split and warred over it.

If the humanities want to prove a human rights truth fundamental to all religious or moral systems, they have to at least acknowledge that their ideas came from somewhere. It's wrong to claim that all those religious people ever really meant to say was be cool bros, when the golden rule predates the secular philosophy which asserts that it's the only bit that matters, and the rest can be thrown away.
Ngl, I think you're kind of making assumptions on what I consider worthwhile culturally and what I was arguing about, possibly based around your past experiences and conceptions of secular philosophy generally. It's definitely not being written off as bickering over superstition, more just logging that the influence of philosophical arguments with long gone dissenting groups are hard to quantify in terms of subsequent influence down the line.

I agree with you that it's pretty much impossible to separate the temporal and spiritual spheres, especially during the Middle Ages, but my focus is threefold:

first, to look to see what aspects of these thinkers was passed down later into what we currently consider to be the western philosophical and cultural heritage, both religious, moral, and historical. Obviously there's going to be some influence from the many church fathers on later thinkers, and it's hard to tell where one person's influence ends and another's begins, so in terms of just general simplification I'm looking at people with very obvious influence down the line. As a result, what tends to stick out are very highly cited historical works and new schools of thought, which from what I understand now is not how the Christian dialectic works. However, because of this focus, I tend to place less emphasis on scholarly disputations against long gone "heresies." this is primarily because those battles are long gone, and it's difficult to tell where exactly these arguments would have on general philosophy much later when these battles were long resolved. Thus is probably where ZDD and I had our biggest disagreement, dimple because our focuses and priorities are so different. Also, I'm not going to say like it's impossible that the thinkers ZDD cites aren't heavily cited, I just don't know. What I do know is they're not frequently brought up in modern conceptions of the history of western philosophy, much like Pythagoras isn't really heavily factored in despite his powerful influence during the classical period.

My second area that I focus on is the systems that facilitate intellectual discourse and communication and the geopolitical instability of the time destroying these systems. In the classical world, these would've been the libraries and academies, while during the high middle ages, these would've been the universities. These systems help create an accepted system of scholarly communication that made it easier to facilitate ideas. I didn't get into this as much simply because it's hard to dispute the factual record that neither institution really existed in the former Roman World during the time, as Justinian closed the pagan academies in the early 6th century and the first European universities were only founded in the late 11th century. this doesn't mean that intellectual discourse stopped, but it definitely made it travel a lot slower, and thus, the spread of ideas and new arguments took longer, so there is very likely less of it.

My third area of focus is the contemporary contribution to non-philosophical knowledge like history, literature, and science. It's undisputable that there was a lot less of this knowledge being created from 500-699, and while I agree with ZDD that most of the scholarly energy was transferred from these fields to religion, my main argument was that this decline in new secular knowledge, combined with the other two factors hampering the spread and evolution of new philosophical ideas, led to less knowledge/philosophy being created and less influential voices being heard during a very specific time. Obviously this was the main point of contention, and we probably can never agree simply because we have different focuses on what counts as longstanding knowledge and how to quantify scholarly impact on later writers.

tldr: I think me and ZDD were talking past each other bc we have different focuses and conceptions of what's valuable from that time. I also think you're misinterpreting my thesis.
 
@soy_king

A bit off topic, but I'm also curious, do you believe that as a whole the technological, artistic, and architectural achievements of the former Roman World in the 6th and 7th centuries were equivalent to what was seen during the Pax Romana and the Carolingian Renaissance?
As far as I'm aware, there was indeed palpable technological, scientific and artistic development during the early Middle Ages... if only in the Byzantine Empire (I find it a bit unfair that in a conversation about the early Middle Ages, you've sequestered for comparison the 6th and 7th centuries). I'm not exactly in the business of comparing the three periods for "equivalence in achievements", unfortunately.

Holy Crap! The level of knowledge you two have on the subject of medieval European historical philosophy is on a another level. Where did you guys learn this stuff? I consider myself fairly well educated, but you two make me look like a special ed kid at the level of your discussion.
@soy_king mentioned his own. As for me... church?

Being less cheeky: Orthodox Christianity is extremely history-aware, in practice. I figure that's natural when you commemorate saints all over space and time, and even events-- though through commemorated saints. A good recent example was last Saturday and Sunday, where both the Ascension was celebrated and the 318 bishops of the Council of Nicaea were commemorated (here's the stichera for the Saturday vesperal service, and, yes, it's sung-- very well). Despite the lack of formal one that isn't "the liturgy", catechetical courses are inclined to talk about nearly two millennia of church history according to significant historical events, and more specific categories often also discuss historical origins and attestations.

...but I'm also just a strange man who found the records of the doctrinal controversies of the first and second millennia extremely engrossing. As it happens, those controversies are inseparable from their mise-en-scène, so you get a lot of surrounding info. It had been 2-3 years after choosing to be baptized Orthodox before I could manage to attend Sunday liturgies at all, and I attempted to fill this clear lacking with knowledge. But it doesn't really come together outside the Church's liturgical life...

Religious disputation among leaders when the states have a state religion is secular history.
You made me remember something I shouldn't have ever forgotten: our conception of secularism didn't ever exist in the Roman Empire.

I suppose I recognized the principle, given that the emperor would be the one to convene councils and considered himself responsible for enforcing its verdicts (but not influencing the deliberations of the clerical class), but the specific reality was something I learned a while back but had forgotten.

However, because of this focus, I tend to place less emphasis on scholarly disputations against long gone "heresies."
Quick correction: A lot of heresies-- Christological or otherwise-- were brought back up either wholly or by inclination by the Protestants and some purportedly Christian sects, almost always independent of church history.

tldr: I think me and ZDD were talking past each other bc we have different focuses and conceptions of what's valuable from that time.
I would accept if we had differences in what we valued at that time, and I considered that reality on multiple occasions.

The issue was that you didn't dispense with what you valued all at once, if that's a concrete concept you can give. You accepted that I gave you a list of bishops, monks, and theologians. When you went from concern to concern, the only way I could read that was "okay, sure, but what about..." Only near the end do you take issue with me providing you the same figures I listed to start.

Now, I think I understand your viewpoint better.
 
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