UN Fourth Democratic Debate: A New Dope

Starts at 5pm-8pm PST / 7pm CST-10pm CST / 8pm-11pm EST

If you want to watch the debate go here or here

Welcome to fourth Democratic primary debates, tonight will feature:

Joe Biden former Vice President


Kamala Harris senator from California


Bernie "Heart Breaker" Sanders senator from Vermont


Andrew Yang businessman


Cory Booker senator from New Jersey and mutated Obama clone


Beto O'Rourke representative from Texas


Amy Klobuchar senator from Minnesota


Julian Castro former housing and urban development secretary


Pete Buttigieg mayor of South Bend


NEW CHALLENGER APPROACHES: Tom Steyer billionaire and businessman


Elizabeth Warren Massachusetts senator


RETURNING: Tulsi Gabbard Hawaii representative


The poll will be posted after the debates. I'm happy to see Tulsi return, but I hate Tom Steyer, mixed bag. I predict tonight is going to be a total mess, this is make or break time.

 

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I think you misunderstand my stance on Tulsi. I like her. I just don't think she wants to spend her life fighting this party. Always having to capitulate to them.
If you think Trump hasn't taken a lot of flack from the establishment for his approach, I don't know what to tell you.
He's been stymied at every turn. As for birthright citizenship - he doesn't have to issue an executive order.
This sums up the pushback and murkiness of going through with it...
When you have a million bullets coming your way, what is the most strategic way to entertain them?
I know you dislike Trump, but come on. Let's be realistic and logical here. Even if this were a democrat, it'd be a fools errand right now to approach that.

The birthright citizenship EO is just an example of something that think tanks that have views copacetic with Trump's stated goals in the run up to his election have already prepared and ready to go. It's a no-lose proposition. If he gets away with it, Americans are better off. If he doesn't, then it's a stick to beat the enemies of America with.

Meanwhile, no new wall, a higher net flow of low skilled immigrants than under Obama, and Trump talking up bringing in 'skilled' codeshitters to attack middle class American wages.

What has he accomplished? Well, he used his executive authority for something really important to him- continuing the murder of Yemeni civilians on behalf of Saudi Arabia (the primary perpetrator of the 9/11 attacks). He made sure not to interfere with all the GOPe nonsense they passed in the first year- tax cuts for the rich, tax 'cuts' on the paycheck end with a nice surprise come end of year for everyone else. If Trump wanted to accomplish his campaign promises, why not one single appointee who isn't scum? Kris Kobach's not doing anything right now, to give only one glaring example.

Tulsi is a far more trustworthy character. And if I suspend disbelief and go with the idea that Trump was ever honest about his campaign promises and just got broken down by Washington, then she could hardly be broken down more than Trump has been.

I don't have much to say about the Democratic debates, I'm not even American, but Tulsi Gabbard has some nice feet that i'd like to clean the toe jam off of. Can someone let me know if she was barefoot during this? I might look up some footage on youtube if this is the case. Thanks in advance.

You're out of luck I'm afraid.

In the 80s there was this doctor who exploited medicaid by filing a ton of false claims like multiple MRI's and cat scans and shit for patients with a broken arm and other shit that was unnecessary and never happened. Just because it's a government program doesn't mean there isn't cash there to take.

Look, I'm just a simple man, and I'm not an American, but if you think this is a problem then you imply that it is not possible to take these people and punish them very, very harshly once their offending escalates to the point where it makes any sort of real difference to budgets.

If that isn't possible, the problem isn't with 'Medicare for all'. The whole system is useless and should be destroyed and remade.

 

[Vorhtbame]

Meanwhile, no new wall

Thanks for letting us know you have nothing of value to say.

 

[ConfederateIrishman]

Ah, sorry I'll lay down and die then. So thanks for the... support? Never seen such a gleeful display and energy from someone looking for excuses for why everyone shouldn't have healthcare. If you honestly think the situation can be more corrupt and dire than it is now, where people just give up on living, or have to ration life saving medicine like we live in a mad max wasteland, then I can't help you.

Have you considered the idea that in trying to help people screwed by the system, you might end up harming other people? Such as longer waitlists for cancer patients between diagnosis and treatment?

Granted I still sympathize with your post, healthcare more than anything infuriates me because I see no clear solution to it short doing *something* to the pharmaceuticals (and that is something neither party has the balls to do) to make them lower the price, or frankly to give the federal government too much power as a side effect of trying to fix the damn issue.

Its why I don't like to talk about healthcare politics much, I see no solution there outside of personally supporting my friends when they need medical help.

 

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Have you considered the idea that in trying to help people screwed by the system, you might end up harming other people? Such as longer waitlists for cancer patients between diagnosis and treatment?

Granted I still sympathize with your post, healthcare more than anything infuriates me because I see no clear solution to it short doing *something* to the pharmaceuticals (and that is something neither party has the balls to do) to make them lower the price, or frankly to give the federal government too much power as a side effect of trying to fix the damn issue.

Its why I don't like to talk about healthcare politics much, I see no solution there outside of personally supporting my friends when they need medical help.

There is no doubt in the minds of anyone who doesn't hold 'lol let the poors die' as one of their highest 'moral' values that the American system is thoroughly broken.

Just look at where they cream the most money. Poor, but honest, trusting conservative minded uninsured working people who the various corrupt actors in the medical system can hand a bill for tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars and 'help' by offering to let them pay it off over years or decades.

Sure.. if you are conscious at the time that you're being taken to a hospital, you may have some ability to negotiate prices down to Medicare rates, or do better through something like 'Medsave' (which seems to have vanished from the web).. but who among those most vulnerable (again, the working poor) has any idea about that?

Illegal aliens don't have to pay. Welfare queens can let it ride. Rich pricks don't even notice medical insurance as a cost to them. Those people who have health insurance as part of a middle class job can at least groan and bear it.

It is disgusting. While Bernie's plan is not a perfect solution, it is at least a step that could make things very uncomfortable for 'heath insurance' companies. They'd actually have to offer some value-add rather than 'your finances may not be completely ruined by a medical incident'.

Further involvement by charities would make sense. Having more 'street doctors' with nurse practitioner level training a-la Cuba would also be a worthwhile step as the US descends into third world nation status. But really, what is more important than the joy of a grandparent with his or her grandchild? *

* euthanize wine aunts

 

[Vorhtbame]

but who among those most vulnerable (again, the working poor) has any idea about that?

So what you're saying is, poor people are stupid and can't be expected to take care of themselves, so it's up to bigbrains (like your favorite politicians) to manage it for them?

 

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So what you're saying is, poor people are stupid and can't be expected to take care of themselves, so it's up to bigbrains (like your favorite politicians) to manage it for them?

Yes, I so strongly believe in the thoroughly unreasonable idea that corrupt corporations should not be able to ruin the lives of regular decent people that I don't think that corrupt vertically integrated hospital/'insurance' providers should be enabled to farm them as debt slaves for the rest of their lives.

 

[Ashy the Angel]

I would love the right to continue to spout the highly popular positions of "better things aren't possible" and "fuck everyone" in regards to healthcare. I think that's a winning proposition. Also keep spreading the lie that it would bankrupt America, even though a study specifically started to debunk it by libertarians found it would actually be cheaper than our current system.

Its so fascinating to see even the most ardent anti-leftists here admit that our current system is broken, but when offered a solution they deny it because Reasons and Well I Don't Want To. Even if you genuinely disagree with public healthcare you have to admit that doing nothing is not a politically viable solution.

 

[It's HK-47]

I would love the right to continue to spout the highly popular positions of "better things aren't possible" and "fuck everyone" in regards to healthcare. I think that's a winning proposition. Also keep spreading the lie that it would bankrupt America, even though a study specifically started to debunk it by libertarians found it would actually be cheaper than our current system.

Its so fascinating to see even the most ardent anti-leftists here admit that our current system is broken, but when offered a solution they deny it because Reasons and Well I Don't Want To. Even if you genuinely disagree with public healthcare you have to admit that doing nothing is not a politically viable solution.

If it's going to be cheaper then why do the Democrats themselves keep going up on stage to advocate for cranking up the taxes on the wealthy and on businesses to help pay for the increased cost of their new system? It's not just the Republicans who are saying it's going to cost more, it's the Democrats themselves who keep saying it, too. If it was legitimately going to be cheaper then why aren't they just saying that instead of yelping about tax hikes?

 

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Its so fascinating to see even the most ardent anti-leftists here admit that our current system is broken, but when offered a solution they deny it because Reasons and Well I Don't Want To. Even if you genuinely disagree with public healthcare you have to admit that doing nothing is not a politically viable solution.

Indeed. One doesn't even see any mention of the Singapore model, which effectively cares for the poor, while also mitigating the greatly exaggerated deleterious effects from hypochrondiacs using state provided services irresponsibly.

This proves that the people opposing Bernie's model are just motivated by a desire to kill the poor, not due to any real desire for greater economic efficiency.

 

[InvertedDickEnthusiast]

I would love the right to continue to spout the highly popular positions of "better things aren't possible" and "fuck everyone" in regards to healthcare. I think that's a winning proposition. Also keep spreading the lie that it would bankrupt America, even though a study specifically started to debunk it by libertarians found it would actually be cheaper than our current system.

Its so fascinating to see even the most ardent anti-leftists here admit that our current system is broken, but when offered a solution they deny it because Reasons and Well I Don't Want To. Even if you genuinely disagree with public healthcare you have to admit that doing nothing is not a politically viable solution.

That's because you're not even going to patch it by throwing money at it, and doing homework is boring and hard, so might as well bellyache about it for years and then get caught with your pants down when the President says, "Fix it, I'll sign whatever you put in front of me."

I will say if no actual humans were harmed in the process I'd love to see what would happen if they simply passed a law that made upfront pricing available before any and all procedures and medicines for a few years, might even cause enough trouble to make people address the underlying issues with the american medical system in general before going with free healthcare.

 

[Ashy the Angel]

If it's going to be cheaper then why do the Democrats themselves keep going up on stage to advocate for cranking up the taxes on the wealthy and on businesses to help pay for the increased cost of their new system? It's not just the Republicans who are saying it's going to cost more, it's the Democrats themselves who keep saying it, too. If it was legitimately going to be cheaper then why aren't they just saying that instead of yelping about tax hikes?

Well that's the thing, even with tax hikes its cheaper in the long run, and Democrats have been saying just that. Now this is a really hard concept for libertarians to understand so I get the reluctance, but as it turns out many people are fine with paying marginally higher taxes if it goes towards a system that will directly improve their lives and be cheaper in the long run. If your taxes are low but you're still paying out the nose for premiums, you're still getting fucked. You can no longer scare the average American by saying "oOoOooO the tAxEs aRe gOiNg tO Be hIgheR" because the alternative which we are living right now is demonstrably worse and people are sick of it.

America's richest 400 families now pay a lower tax rate than the middle class

For the first time in a century, the ultra-wealthy contribute a smaller share of their income than most other Americans

www.cbsnews.com

And as you correctly point out the rich would be taking most of the burden, as they rightfully should. Making things cheaper for rich people vis-a-vis taxcuts for billionaires has only had the effect of making the class divide in this country even worse. Companies got big tax cuts from Trump and still laid off millions of people and slashed their healthcare. The private industry is a scam and must be burned to the ground. I don't need to constantly repeat the "How" because politicians like Bernie have laid out the reading material and if you're really curious you can do your research.

I will say if no actual humans were harmed in the process I'd love to see what would happen if they simply passed a law that made upfront pricing available before any and all procedures and medicines for a few years, might even cause enough trouble to make people address the underlying issues with the american medical system in general before going with free healthcare.

That's a good solution but still only half-measure at best.

 

[Pointless Pedant]

I don't usually make political predictions but I'd be genuinely surprised if Sanders actually gets the nomination. Biden and Warren are a long way ahead in polling and barring major upsets I can't see anyone other than those 2 getting it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries#Primary_election_polling

Sanders definitely has a better chance than Yang though. His online support base is baffling given his single digit polling figures.

 

[Feline Supremacist]

jfc do any of you actually know anyone on Medicare? It's not free and doesn't cover everything so you actually have to buy additional health insurance. A long time ago Medicare was great because whatever it didn't cover the health insurance that was part of your retirement benefits (especially if you had been in a union) made it a great deal where you paid very little, if anything. That is long gone. and has been for the past twenty years at least. There's a lot of folks that were screwed out of their retirement pay after assholes like Romney leveraged the companies they once worked at filed for bankruptcy and their health insurance vanished.

There is no way a decent universal healthcare system could function in the USA while retaining American hegemony and every slimeball politician knows it. It barely works in Canada. Cuba is notoriously strapped for cash and while maintaining a decent health care system finds it can't pay decent wages to anyone, even doctors. The NHS in the UK is beset with issues and has to import doctors and nurse that sometimes can't even read English with the result being needless patients deaths and horror stories like the woman who had a her baby yanked out so hard its head detached.

Like @Кот Бегемот said, be thankful you can negotiate with providers because in a universal health care system Stage 4 patients would be written off and offered hospice as treatment wouldn't be cost effective and there's lots of other people who aren't dying they could spend their resources on.

@Ashy the Angel You are crazy if you think higher taxes would result in a universal healthcare system that would take care of everyone; more taxes just means more money going into government (and by default, politicians) pockets. I live in a state with one of the highest state taxes in the nation and I still have to fight my insurance over everything, literally. Because every illegal that makes it here get free healthcare so there aren't enough dollars to go around.

 

[It's HK-47]

Well that's the thing, even with tax hikes its cheaper in the long run, and Democrats have been saying just that. Now this is a really hard concept for libertarians to understand so I get the reluctance, but as it turns out many people are fine with paying marginally higher taxes if it goes towards a system that will directly improve their lives and be cheaper in the long run. If your taxes are low but you're still paying out the nose for premiums, you're still getting fucked. You can no longer scare the average American by saying "oOoOooO the tAxEs aRe gOiNg tO Be hIgheR" because the alternative which we are living right now is demonstrably worse and people are sick of it.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/americ...s-pay-a-lower-tax-rate-than-the-middle-class/

And as you correctly point out the rich would be taking most of the burden, as they rightfully should. Making things cheaper for rich people vis-a-vis taxcuts for billionaires has only had the effect of making the class divide in this country even worse. Companies got big tax cuts from Trump and still laid off millions of people and slashed their healthcare. The private industry is a scam and must be burned to the ground. I don't need to constantly repeat the "How" because politicians like Bernie have laid out the reading material and if you're really curious you can do your research.

Well you clearly can continue to scare the average American with a discussion of tax hikes because they made that a focal point of the debate, with most of the Democrats on-stage trying to hammer Warren for a soundbite saying that she was going to hike taxes on the middle class. If that didn't "scare" a significant chunk of the population then they shouldn't be so concerned about having to come out and say it.

When it comes to the rich, I'm not the slightest bit surprised that they pay a smaller percentage of their income and taxes and to be perfectly honest I don't necessarily disagree with it in a practical sense (As for morally? Ehh?). If you crank their taxes up to like 50% they're just going to piss off and stow their money in a different country rather than keep it here, and you effectively get no taxes out of them. It probably pisses a lot of people off that the rich will pay a smaller percentage of their total, household income than the rest of the country, but the brutal honesty of it is that they're just worth more money, so they get preferential treatment, and there's really nothing you can do to stop that without risking an economic flight.

It sucks and I can understand why the average person would be pissed about that and I definitely understand why a Communist would get angry, but that's the harsh truth of it.

Even in the article you sent I can't help but notice that while they talk percentages from one wall to the next, they're not talking about the actual numbers involved. Even if you took a billionaire and taxed him at 20% and took a Walmart employee (Avg. ~18k) and taxed him at 50%, the billionaire would pay the equivalent of ~22,000 of those cashiers. That's also assuming that the billionaire is pulling in a billion as a yearly income. If we started to talk about taxing wealth instead of income--which people like Warren have been discussing-- then we'd get into an entirely different and utterly ridiculous topic because taxing wealth is just psychotic and has the potential to completely destroy every major company in the entire country and demolish an unbelievable number of jobs along the way.

Again, I can understand why a Communist would want to do that, but it's generally not a great idea.

 

[Azovka]

The USSR existed over 30 years ago. It's 2019 and I live in the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world and yet I have to beg for my father's life. I have to pay exorbitant medication prices that are essentially extortion. All while America fights a never-ending series of fool hardy regime change wars, causing untold numbers of atrocities, to the tune of $700 billion dollars. The same socialized medicine that everyone wants to implement in America has existed in countries like Canada, Australia, and the whole of Scandinavia for decades. The current system is incredibly cruel and broken so the talking point that it's just not viable, nothing can ever get better, and we have to sit and suffer isn't going to cut it. The only thing standing in the way are the insurance companies and the corrupt politicians that lobby to protect their corporate interests because the industry makes billions of dollars by making Americans choose between their lives, the lives of their loved ones, and complete and total financial ruin.

vote Bernie Sanders you worms

The Soviet Union might have been 30 years ago, but my family still lives in Russia, and my father had to literally give $500 to his anaesthesiologist while on the way to the operating room for him to actually, you know, do his job and numb him during a kidney stone extraction.
And that was on top of all the regular and expected fees paid in advance, and only a year ago in a pretty damn good Moscow clinic.

During a previous operation in another, completely different clinic, he didn’t happen to have cash on his persona while going in for surgery, and they did it without anaesthetic) Just some good old fashioned tooth pulling raw.

And those are just expected bribes on top of your normal fees.

I’m not saying that the American system is great. And I am very sorry for your father. As someone who lived through family members getting bone cancer, I do empathise. But you have to remember that health is a commodity, a good like any other. And that there is no “perfect system” where good healthcare is going to be free. Hell, even in “welfare” states, you have to pay for private insurance.

 

[ConfederateIrishman]

jfc do any of you actually know anyone on Medicare?

Not specifically on Medicare, but I do know how one of my friends got screwed hard on Obamacare, hence the reason I feel wary about those saying we have to do *something*.
Why?
Because it took my friend's already shit healthcare situation and made it even worse because his family couldn't even fucking afford the newly offered healthcare and they actually had to pay more on the fucking tax for not picking any healthcare which overall costed more than the original shitty healthcare they had.

Now to be fair to @Ashy the Angel because this mini-rant isn't really aimed at you, I assume you also were not a fan of neoliberal Obama's healthcare "fix" (aka capitulation to the insurance companies), right?

tl;dr: I guess I don't want my friend to get an even worse deal than he already has currently in another attempt to try and unfuck this, even though I know something should be done.

 

[the fall of man]

California is run by Democrats. We have our own healthcare (MediCal). We famously have sanctuary cities: San Francisco, glistening turd by the bay, waist high in human feces and needles; and Los Angeles, a gridlocked hellhole with a permanently growing homeless population in Skid Row.

When PG&E shut off power to all the people between these two cities (the ones who like Jesus, are okay with Hey-Zeus, and hate Obama), Our Illustrious Governor did the heroic thing by deflecting responsibility and signing a rent control law. Because “not enough housing” will be solved by punishing people who might desire to own and let property.

Our state and local taxes are insane, and for the few years I’ve been here, every election comes with literally dozens of quarter-cent tax hikes to fund Education (the largest funders of Bernie’s grift campaign and the largest employer in the state). The transportation budget gets pilfered like crazy. The realtors literally run the municipalities.

Even if you think Bernie is ideologically pure (he seems nice, just sociopathically oblivious), you need to realize the following facts:

1. There are lots of selfish people. They will take money if you put it in front of them.
2. ”Empowering” the government (by removing states’ rights, rampant federalism, single payer, etc.) means you empower the next set of government run by the opposing party, as well
3. Civilization has not changed since Rome. Foreign wars, soft power, immigration reform, polyamory, homosexuality, transsexuality, socialism/communism are not new ideas. They’re ancient. Read a history book. Send one to your congressman.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

tl;dr: I guess I don't want my friend to get an even worse deal than he already has currently in another attempt to try and unfuck this, even though I know something should be done.

And remember the people on stage last night, and who Ashley is blindly shilling for are the people who 9 fucking years ago, less than a fucking decade..said "Healthcare is a problem! PASS THIS AND IT WILL BE FIXED WE PROMISE!" and got what they wanted..and at very best by the admission of the people on stage DID NOT FIX THE FUCKING PROBLEM and in some cases (mine included, my rates went up thanks Obama) Got fucking worse.

Why the fuck should the people who made the situation worse get another chance to fuck it up further.

 

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And remember the people on stage last night, and who Ashley is blindly shilling for are the people who 9 fucking years ago, less than a fucking decade..said "Healthcare is a problem! PASS THIS AND IT WILL BE FIXED WE PROMISE!" and got what they wanted..and at very best by the admission of the people on stage DID NOT FIX THE FUCKING PROBLEM and in some cases (mine included, my rates went up thanks Obama) Got fucking worse.

Bernie called it a "good Republican program"- damning with faint praise.

Your suggestions may be true of Elizabeth Warren, a filthy neoliberal shill every bit as evil as George Bush Jr., but it is not true of the likes of Sanders.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Bernie called it a "good Republican program"- damning with faint praise.

Your suggestions may be true of Elizabeth Warren, a filthy neoliberal shill every bit as evil as George Bush Jr., but it is not true of the likes of Sanders.

One of the people on stage was the VP of the person who Forced it through.