Fire Emblem series

[Flaming Insignias]

FE characters you think get a bad rap? Personally, if not for FEH flanderization I think Tharja’s complexities would be appreciated more.

Crucify me, but I think Sylvain is actually a completely understandable character, especially once 3 Hopes expanded on the living situation in House Gautier. Just from the base game, his rant about how little he thinks of the women he picks up is a fair judgement; his flirting is rather weak, so most of his flings really do come off more like gold-diggers taking the gamble to potentially gain status through an undeniable bastard (crest babies) than any sort of real talent on his part. Moreover, some dialogue in Warriors implies that his parents are in a loveless marriage that existed purely for the sake of ensuring House Gautier's continuity, so it is perhaps easy to see why Sylvain is so willing to live freely while at Garreg Mach if his future looks so bleak, even if the contradictions make him even more bitter.

Similarly, Gilbert/Gustave. I know everybody loves Annette and feels for her family situation, but I feel that said daddy issues are treated too harshly by the fandom. Gustave has a nasty case of survivor guilt and is clearly hurting himself and his family in his attempt to make up for his failure to protect Lambert, but the fandom keeps treating him as a deadbeat who ran away over something trivial. The character has many flaws and he is clearly supposed to look like a deconstruction of penance quests, but turning him into the loser dad isn't fair.

 

[A Very Big Fish]

I don't think Tharja was ever complex but something I really liked about her in Awakening that IS seems to have largely undone was how abrasive she was whenever she wasn't stalking Robin. I just think characters like that are funny and it helps adding fun dynamics into a cast when one of your characters is so entertainingly hostile in a still harmless way.
It's just a shame that IS took that away and limited her to "hot goth gf" because thats sadly the thing that most people like her for.
Her original Awakening portrait conveys pretty well what she's like when you take Robin out of the picture:
View attachment 7533114

But I'm not going to pretend that the Robin simping was rare, absolutely not.

While I like Tharja, she is a straight up deranged stalker. In an alternate timeline, she's the reason Noire is a neurotic mess.

Regarding needlessly abrasive characters, that's why I loved Saizo in Fates. Plus, when he was a dick, it was usually either because he was on mission or dealing with someone's weird bullshit.

For example this conversation, from like, 2 minutes before he proposes to Azura.

Saizo: Ah, yes, but this scar is a part of me now. To remove it would feel wrong. Besides, it's expected for men to have scars. Women must remain delicate.
Azura: That sounds kind of silly to me. Are you always this sexist?
Saizo: So I've been told.

Or his B convo with Felicia:

Saizo: Why do you work as a maid, anyway?
Felicia: To take care of Lord Corrin and the others, of course.
Saizo: Then you should quit.

 

[Pigga Kumite]

I always thought Lysithea got a bad rap by the fandom. And Three Hopes definitely flanderized her a little bit.

But in the original game, she's mostly justified in being angry and bitchy in a lot of her supports. The only exception is of course her Ignatz one but unfortunately in modern Fire Emblem every characters get one support where they act wildly out of character. See: Ingrid/Claude and Hinoka/Azama for examples off the top of my head.

But yeah the supports where she's mean. Claude and Sylvain are jerks. Linhardt and Hanneman are creepy, off-putting weirdos. Lorenz gives off slimy vibes. Raphael condescends to her and actually does treat her like a child, Balthus is absolutely a dead beat loser and Marianne and her learned helplessness would be incredibly frustrating to actually interact with.

And then in her supports with Leonie, Hilda, Catherine, Cyril, Byleth, Edelgard, Annette and Felix she's actually pretty nice.

Even the Ignatz one is justified to some extent when he reveals in the A-Support he has too much ""social anxiety"" to go grocery shopping by himself. Imagine having a coworker like that in a military academy and later an active war.

 

[AndSothisIsChristmas]

Ignatz is a hideous incel bozo and deserves to be bullied in all cases. Lysithea is just the only one with the stones to do it.

 

[Pigga Kumite]

See I actually kind of agree with you normally. Ignatz is absolutely insufferable in the Raphael support for example and Lorenz literally solves his whole "crisis" in their B-Support even before the time skip. It's just in the Lysithea one he doesn't do anything particularly worthy of scorn besides be a little gormless. Unlike for instance when she yells at Marianne, the healer, for standing like a deer in headlights after a bunch of people are badly injured in a workplace accident. Or when she tells Sylvain to piss off (and even gets him to break character and baby rage which is based).

Judging by her Cyril support and her backstory, if anything she'd want to help Ignatz to be a better man, which is what kind of ends up happening in the A Support. But it's like the developers forgot her actual character for the C and B supports.

 

[Angry Muda]

Ah a fellow masochist, let me tell you all about my Lunatic Conquest No reclassing No child units No Royals (Azura and Corrin OK) No my castle (shops and free statues OK) No stat booster (tonics OK) playthrough where I buy and use silver weapons. Bow Knight Selena was the MVP.

My only challenge that I failed was having Peri kill the final boss, but she died at the last turn of a map I reset 10 times for, and I didn't bother saving her. It was pretty clutch since I didn't utilize Niles Kidnap ability to its fullest, and I didn't even have enough units to fully deploy the final map. Luckily had enough staff users though

 

[Quartermaster]

So I don't know if this was brought up before, I feel like it has.
Apparently Kaga made a bunch of other games, one of them being Vestaria Saga

Vestaria Saga I: War of the Scions on Steam

A prince in flight, charged with defending the last of the royal family, determined to secure a future for his kingdom, unaware he would be fighting for stakes greater still.

store.steampowered.com

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1811600/Vestaria_Saga_II_The_Sacred_Sword_of_Silvanister/

It certainly looks very much like Fire Emblem but it gives me cheap RPG Maker vibes. This isn't necessarily a bad thing considering LISA The Painful was also made in RPG Maker.

With Summer Sales coming up I am tempted to try it out, has anyone played them yet? What are they like?

 

[Tony2Timez]

It certainly looks very much like Fire Emblem but it gives me cheap RPG Maker vibes. This isn't necessarily a bad thing considering LISA The Painful was also made in RPG Maker.

With Summer Sales coming up I am tempted to try it out, has anyone played them yet? What are they like?

Both Vestaria titles literally are SRPG Studio games that Kaga and a small team did for the hell of it; I think they're even free in Japanese, and the English versions only cost money to reimburse the localizers.

They are very much Shouzou Kaga games. If you like the Kaga FEs you'll probably find something to enjoy in the VS games, but if you found FE3, 4, 5 in particular tedious, stay away. They almost feel like a mix of those 3 FEs: Story feels very straightforward and Mystery of the Emblem-esque, maps have FE4 style missables/secrets and a option kind of like the autosave, and the content of the maps themselves felt like Thracia maps; the amount of and effects on weapons and skills also reminded me a lot of Thracia for some reason. I'm probably oversimplifying and there's more I could get into, and, granted, it's been awhile since I've played either, but I found VS 1 & 2 to be very layered gameplay wise despite the lack of polish.

Tear Ring Saga and Berwick Saga are also pretty cool. TRS is much closer to FE than Berwick, and is the one I generally prefer. They are worth trying out too if you have the time. Neither got localized so you'll have to go through the rigamarole of patching them into English if you don't know nipponese - I can't remember how good the fan translations were but I don't recall there being anything egregious. I also didn't finish Berwick, but should revisit it soon now that I'm thinking about it.

I'm biased/a Kagafag so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but if you can get your hands on them cheap I'd say they're at least worth trying if you're looking for more FE while we're in between games. All that being said...

Do it for him
​

 

[Quartermaster]

They are very much Shouzo Kaga games. If you like the Kaga FEs you'll probably find something to enjoy in the VS games, but if you found FE3, 4, 5 in particular tedious, stay away.

I feared that may be the case.
I found 4 to be very tedious mainly because the enemies were fodder and the maps were massive, infantry units being pretty much useless because the mounted units move three times as far as them while not fighting much worse.

How much of FE4 is in there? I do like Mystery and Thracia though

 

[Tony2Timez]

I feared that may be the case.
I found 4 to be very tedious mainly because the enemies were fodder and the maps were massive, infantry units being pretty much useless because the mounted units move three times as far as them while not fighting much worse.

How much of FE4 is in there? I do like Mystery and Thracia though

Definitely closer to 3 & 5 than 4. Maps aren't nearly the same size. A lot of the better characters are mounted just for efficiency's sake and being able to get to various happenings on the map quicker (as is the case in many other FEs), but cavs don't invalidate other unit types nearly as much as is the case in FE4 imo. It varies by unit but most footlocked units get more Mov on promotion, and overall it doesn't hurt to have variety in who you deploy. I probably shouldn't have drawn as much comparison to FE4 as FE5 but I wanted to lump those three together as the quintessential Kaga games lol

I should also mention there are personal skills and some PRF weapons that help with unit identity, if that's a plus for you. Talking about it is kinda making me want to replay at least VS1, haha

 

[Computer God Autism]

So I don't know if this was brought up before, I feel like it has.
Apparently Kaga made a bunch of other games, one of them being Vestaria Saga

Vestaria Saga I: War of the Scions on Steam

A prince in flight, charged with defending the last of the royal family, determined to secure a future for his kingdom, unaware he would be fighting for stakes greater still.

store.steampowered.com

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1811600/Vestaria_Saga_II_The_Sacred_Sword_of_Silvanister/

It certainly looks very much like Fire Emblem but it gives me cheap RPG Maker vibes. This isn't necessarily a bad thing considering LISA The Painful was also made in RPG Maker.

With Summer Sales coming up I am tempted to try it out, has anyone played them yet? What are they like?

I reviewed them both back in my review dump last year. TL;DR, Vestaria Saga/II is the most Kaga game I've played, for better and worse.

 

[mrs thickness]

It certainly looks very much like Fire Emblem but it gives me cheap RPG Maker vibes. This isn't necessarily a bad thing considering LISA The Painful was also made in RPG Maker.

With Summer Sales coming up I am tempted to try it out, has anyone played them yet? What are they like?

I hate to be le epic pirate guy about it since I'm already on record as autistically disliking Kaga games, but both Vestaria Sagas are on gog, so they're convenient to try before buying, if you've got the knowhow for that sort of thing. I think they lack some of the newer updates and changes though.

 

[Lone MacReady II]

I hate to be le epic pirate guy about it since I'm already on record as autistically disliking Kaga games

If playing through the older games has taught me anything, it's that almost every mechanic modern FE has can be traced back to something Kaga did first, including the TearRing series. You can't really dislike Kaga and claim to like FE, because liking FE means you're inevitably interacting with and enjoying an element of Kaga's vision regardless of the game. I suppose I can't help but defend him after being kneecapped by Thracia's no-nonsense difficulty. I've said this before but, I thought Awakening was truly special for the child unit mechanic... then a decade later I learn about and play FE4 and realize, "Oh shit, this fucker actually did that first too".

If you liked Awakening, you like Kaga because it's basically a FE3/4 tribute. If you liked Sacred Stones, you like Kaga because it's basically a FE2 tribute. If you liked Radiant Dawn, you like Kaga because it's taking gameplay mechanics from FE5. If you liked 3 Houses, you like Kaga because that game is blatantly taking lines from FE4. You like Kaga whether you realize it or not.

 

[mrs thickness]

You like Kaga whether you realize it or not.

It doesn't leave a good taste in my mouth making a big Kaga bad post, but hey, good bait.

I don't magically like his ideas and execution more just because they came first, which isn't even relevant to anyone who wasn't a Grorious Nihon 90's kid, and it's not just singular elements of his games that I dislike. It isn't any more complicated than a matter of taste, and that I just think his games are tedious from a combination of moment to moment gameplay, unit and map design, UI, pacing, art direction, sound design (people will really hate me for those two), and especially writing and storytelling - which is a big problem to dislike with how much of it there usually is. They simply aren't for me. It's not a boomer SRPG thing, or a budget RPG maker game thing, or a story game thing - I like several of each of those. The common element is specifically Kaga's design philosophies that don't interest me, and they never have. A good example here is Andaron Saga, which is a perfumed love letter with a big, fat, red-lipped smooch to FE4, and my favorite parts of that game are all the ways it's not like FE4. Saying things like "You actually like Rev because Berwick horses are basically pairup, Tianna is a maid so actually Fates stole that, Berwick has capture and meals so you like them in Rev, and having to go between eight different vendors every chapter is sort of like the Somniel" is misrepresenting both games and just being obtuse for the sake of it. I don't like when Kaga does that either.

I think I hate his vision. Well, at least the vague idea of his vision that his supposed biggest fans make the fuck up when slamming any game from the past 20 years, which is why I like the sound of those probably-made-up stories about how ISIS wants to make Fire Emblem about vampires or take place on Mars. It's why I like pandering bimbo characters (Lyn counts btw) and retainer slop like Odin and Louie, but my eyes glaze over at Deserter with Doubts #2, Woman Priestess/15 Year Old who is Nice and Gets Almost Raped, and I Like Training Knighthood #3, Horny Edition. If someone thinks I'm a retarded tasteless faggot for not liking his games, that's fine and I accept it. I'll even accept the label of bad faith contrarian reactionary, because it's not entirely untrue - there is no easier way to get me against something than telling me I'm supposed to like it when I simply don't, and Kaga's aggressively insecure cult of personality is just more fuel to the fire. You can say that shouldn't impact one's enjoyment of media, but I can say they're such annoying posers that even the big man himself has acknowledged it:

https://x.com/Ks_vestaria/status/820731552044748801

https://x.com/Ks_vestaria/status/820732910261022721


That was almost 10 years ago now, and he doesn't even have to see how bad it's gotten internationally where "Kaga" just means gigachad and "not Kaga" just means soyjak.

 

[Berrakh]

Crucify me, but I think Sylvain is actually a completely understandable character, especially once 3 Hopes expanded on the living situation in House Gautier. Just from the base game, his rant about how little he thinks of the women he picks up is a fair judgement; his flirting is rather weak, so most of his flings really do come off more like gold-diggers taking the gamble to potentially gain status through an undeniable bastard (crest babies) than any sort of real talent on his part.

Lying to people to get close to them then rationalizing it afterwards with a sob story is kike behavior. From what we see the nameless women he’s deceived feel genuinely betrayed so in order to think otherwise we have to assume they had ill intentions, and we’d only do so as a means of ignoring his plainly deceitful actions.

Basically your explanation sounds like what someone who wants to exculpate Sylvain would conclude and not an organic conclusion. I just don’t think the game cares about NPCs it doesn’t even bother to name, so Sylvain is allowed to grow without punishment or making amends. It’s also quite obvious that, in Fodlan, courtship rarely implies sex like dating does in our world. So the damage he does is minimal.

But he is still scummy. Because there is also a character who is contemptuous of dishonest suitors and her manner of dealing with them is to ice them out. Not get close to them in order to humiliate them and invite the moral hazard of hurting someone unnecessarily. Curiously this tends to invite a lot of criticism though Some here have even compared her telling one suitor to get lost to a FaLsE rAPe aCCusAtIoN.

It almost… says something that Sylvain gets this comical level of understanding and she doesn’t.

Perhaps where Dorothea incites envy and resentment Sylvain provides vicarious score-settling. Now that’s a big can of worms isn’t it?

Edit: the girl in his first Support gets mad when Sylv offers to hook her up with another noble so i really doubt we're meant to infer they're gold-digging, not to mention the game humanized Dorothea's marital aspirations. We'd have to dance on the head of a pin to think otherwise imo.

 

[Leaf Wage Slave Jr]

Crossing over from another thread - the current cause de jour, Stop Killing Games, has gotten a Mangs shoutout



I actively don't care about FE-Tubers, but I figured it's at least worthy of the cross-post...

 

[NerdShamer]

So, just how bad can the writing for those romhacks can get? Because I found an rough draft by that one sperg who still hates Mangs

FE characters you think get a bad rap? Personally, if not for FEH flanderization I think Tharja’s complexities would be appreciated more.

I'd say Leonie, but at the end of the day she's still an fangirl and 3 Hopes didn't really changed that. Ashe is too idealistic to be an knight when half of his classmates resent the idea of becoming one.

With Engage, Alfred always came off as an one-dimensional gymbro...Until he almost dies in front his sister. But even then, most if the cast are just annoying with an slightly redeeming trait hidden within their conversations.

Come to think of it, did anyone actually hated the cast from Fates and Awakening? The only one that comes to mind is Tharja and Nowi.

 

[Old King Koaleamos]

So, just how bad can the writing for those romhacks can get? Because I found an rough draft by that one sperg who still hates Mangs

Pretty bad. They all like their shipping and strawmanning politics they hate.

 

[Berrakh]

Come to think of it, did anyone actually hated the cast from Fates and Awakening? The only one that comes to mind is Tharja

I think you guys are very alienated from FE’s fanbase if you’re thinking Tharja is hated and that Sylvain is overly-criticized.

 

[Computer God Autism]

Come to think of it, did anyone actually hated the cast from Fates and Awakening? The only one that comes to mind is Tharja and Nowi.

I think most of the people who raged about Awakening's cast did so because it was fashionable and not because there was anything particularly egregious about it compared to most previous FE games, Tharja excepted. I think it is telling that ten years on from it most discussion about the characters that comes up is generally ambivalent or positive, even from pre-Awakening fans. A lot of people being nostalgic for Awakening certainly contributes, but I don't think it's necessarily unwarranted either; being able to instill nostalgia is a mark that something in the writing was done right.

As for Fates? People still joke/complain about corn, lobsters, taco meat, motorboats, incest and the general retardation of its cast. Not with the same frothing at the mouth vitriol that could be mustered pre-3H, but the reason why people can still get worked up over Fates and its wasted potential is because of how much of a disappointment its writing was, and 3H and Engage just put that into further perspective. Opinions might have softened enough that contrarian retards can start talking about how Fates is some unappreciated masterpiece and not get immediately shut down, but I think the only characters that have been consistently liked from Fates without the help of waifufags were Jakob and Felicia.