Fanfiction Horrors

[LightDragonman1]

Thanks for all your advice.

Heck, I was also partially inspired to make my own Valvrave fic after reading one titled "The Founding Of An Empire." It does contain things like lemons, spelling errors (writer isn't a native English speaker) and all that, but really, everything about it I feel was him taking the potential that the anime failed to capitalize on, and expanding on all of it, creating a fic that, imo, is everything that the show should've been from the beginning, alongside making the main hero less of a spineless and self-loathing martyr, and instead the strong and compassionate leader I hoped he would become, while expanding on the relationships in a positive manner.

When done well like that, fanfics can indeed be a way for fans to see what's wrong with the originals, and try their best to fix them, if unofficially.

 

[Gorillion others]

I'm just mildly surprised this doesn't have pronouns. Any other potentially cursed profiles?

 

[Gorillion others]

Thanks for all your advice.

Heck, I was also partially inspired to make my own Valvrave fic after reading one titled "The Founding Of An Empire." It does contain things like lemons, spelling errors (writer isn't a native English speaker) and all that, but really, everything about it I feel was him taking the potential that the anime failed to capitalize on, and expanding on all of it, creating a fic that, imo, is everything that the show should've been from the beginning, alongside making the main hero less of a spineless and self-loathing martyr, and instead the strong and compassionate leader I hoped he would become, while expanding on the relationships in a positive manner.

When done well like that, fanfics can indeed be a way for fans to see what's wrong with the originals, and try their best to fix them, if unofficially.

Reading the Encyclopedia Dramatica page on Mary Sue also greatly helps. Honest and to the point, while not stroking one's ego (or anything else for that matter). It also lists all of the other known "Sues" used for stories and fanfics in general, while also giving advice on how to avoid them, or at least work around them by giving actual reasons that don't start with "Because I-".

 

[God of Nothing]

Reading the Encyclopedia Dramatica page on Mary Sue also greatly helps. Honest and to the point, while not stroking one's ego (or anything else for that matter). It also lists all of the other known "Sues" used for stories and fanfics in general, while also giving advice on how to avoid them, or at least work around them by giving actual reasons that don't start with "Because I-".

The biggest issue with sues is writers trying to make their characters, protagonists or antagonists, perfect. Reality is everyone fucks up. The difference between a mary sue and a competent character is the competent character is not omni-competent while acknowledging their own failures or riding them out. One of my favorite ongoing fics has everyone fucking up in various ways without realizing it until far too late. Because, as the author intends to demonstrate, how would they be able to know everything or the most competent characters always be in the best position to act? There's a paragraph of logic before almost every major action reflecting how the characters think and what they know, which are obviously flawed because no one can know everything or act perfectly. Characters create the plot and the plot helps mold the characters. A mary sue has the plot twist around to accommodate them, leading to unearned payoffs and an overall lack of growth. No dynamic, no conflict, and no sense of progression.

Sukuna in JJK is easily the most entertaining character, but I can't deny he's a villain sue now. Man hasn't fucked up once. And I mean even once at this point. The protagonist isn't a Mary Sue, but he may as well not exist for how much he influences the plot and vice versa. Story's just another subversive mess where the author doesn't even know what the hell they're trying to write. No theme, no goal, and no real lesson. It isn't just an example of how a sue can ruin a plot but bad writing in general. He made a story with no flaws with a plot full of holes.

 

[Gorillion others]

Sukuna in JJK is easily the most entertaining character, but I can't deny he's a villain sue now. Man hasn't fucked up once. And I mean even once at this point. The protagonist isn't a Mary Sue, but he may as well not exist for how much he influences the plot and vice versa. Story's just another subversive mess where the author doesn't even know what the hell they're trying to write. No theme, no goal, and no real lesson. It isn't just an example of how a sue can ruin a plot but bad writing in general. He made a story with no flaws with a plot full of holes.

I think the reason that he doesn't fuck up is part of the point. The man is, admittedly, over a thousand years old, and even when he was still kicking asses and taking names (and body parts) back in the Heian era, he was easily the most powerful sorcerer above everyone else. Yet, you have a very valid point. He might as well be reaching Joker levels of "mysterious" (note the quotes), with the only hint being that he was an unwanted little shit when he was a kid. That being said, in the most recent chapter, he effectively runs into a conundrum of sorts in how he has lived his life up till now. After seeing how determined the heroes are in defeating him in spite of just how outclassed they are, he realizes just how empty following his baser desires are compared to such conviction that it actually irritates him.

Yuji is basically a subversion of the typical shonen hero, yet the genre could have easily been seinen. Being shonen was likely deliberate on Akutami's part in showcasing how a "typical Japanese hero" would actually be like. That's Yuji. Someone who is almost always overshadowed by people who have more agency than he does, who actually have more going for them than being fatalistic and going through the motions. I think part of Yuji's personality was also deliberate on Kenjaku's part. He didn't want someone who was too headstrong or extroverted that he would derail any of his plans, but Yuji is also a reflection of the typical Japanese. Someone who bottles things up, keeps their head down, and doesn't stand out too much. Basically, a cog. JJK is, at its core, a subtle critique of Japan's cultural norms that are often obscure and trivial. So, we have a protagonist that isn't actually the protagonist at the same time. Instead of someone like Naruto, we have Yuji, which many actually find refreshing. He isn't bombastic, hot-blooded or any of that tripe that people are used to.

Instead, he harbors the determination, selflessness and simple-mindedness other shonen protags have, but it subverts those too to their logical extreme. He becomes determined to hunt down curses more because of how much Mahito pushed him. His idiocy and selflessness end up not only making things worse for himself, but for others as well. The story goes out of its way to not reward Yuji for being a pure-hearted good boy. Instead, the bad guys milk that shit for all its worth and laugh at him while they're at it. That is the charm of JJK, and you can attribute most of the blame to retardation like Naruto for simply defying its most common themes and cliches.

Yuji - Naruto

Nobara - Sakura

Megumi - Sasuke

All three are good friends rather than being caught in the most retarded love triangle in existence. Two aren't fucking gay for each other. And the cool guy is actually a pretty amiable fellow when he isn't annoyed at the Kakashi.

 

[Petrusha the White]

The thing about Mary Sues isn't that they don't have flaws, it's that the narration treats them like they don't have flaws when they very much do. Mary Sues are always written like someone whom if you hung out with them in real life you'd want to strangle them after half an hour, but mysteriously every other character in the story either loves them and thinks them the best thing ever, or totally hates them because they're jealousy of the Sue's awesomeness. You could write the character the exact same way and have them not be a Mary Sue if you also wrote all the other characters thinking they're a massive dickwad.
Works in a similar way for plot developments, too. The Mary Sue is the smartest person in the story so if they're dumb as hell (because it's essentially impossible to plausibly write a character smarter than you the author are) then somehow every other character will be even dumber or else the plot will rely heavily on stupid coincidences to give the Mary Sue clues. Or the Sue will appear to demonstrate psychic powers while "deducing" things the author needs them to know to move the plot along. etc. etc. again, something that could be written the exact same way with a non-Sue character if only the plot didn't treat them like they're smart and special.

A My Little Pony fic I mentioned in a previous post, HIEQ2, starred an absolutely horrendous Gary Stu who gradually over the course of the story became not a Gary Stu as the author began to improve. Nothing about his actual character changed! He acted the exact same way throughout the entire story! What changed was that the other characters started treating him like the asshole he was instead of a sexy turbochad.

 

[God of Nothing]

The thing about Mary Sues isn't that they don't have flaws, it's that the narration treats them like they don't have flaws when they very much do

so they don't have flaws

 

[Petrusha the White]

so they don't have flaws

Characterization isn't necessarily the same thing as narrative. If a character behaves like an enormous asshole all the time, that's a character flaw, because someone who behaves like that in real life is considered a flawed individual. However, if the narration acts like the asshole behavior is justified (without giving good reason) or even has other characters behave as though there is no asshole behavior, then there "is no character flaw", but anyone engaging with the media would still be able to see that the character is an asshole. . The fact that the narration acting like they're not an asshole can not make you, the reader/viewer think that being a dickwad is exactly the same thing as being super nice is why I say the flaws still exist.
The gap between characterization and narrative is where the bad writing is. Narrative SHOULD be part of characterization; having the narration/plot/other characters react to a characters actions/dialogue/personality in an reasonable way is SUPPOSED to be part of characterization. But sometimes, the author fucks up, and there's a gap. (Or else it's a super skilled author pulling off some kind of metanarrative mindfuck but we're not talking about that right now.)

You do have Mary Sues who actively lack flaws (e.g. they're not rude, they're not stupid) but in that case you're talking about characters who have no discernable traits at all, and who just get praised by the narration for no apparent reason. They're less characters and more walking plot devices, and don't usually get identified as Mary Sues in the first place, because why bother.

 

[Gorillion others]

Characterization isn't necessarily the same thing as narrative. If a character behaves like an enormous asshole all the time, that's a character flaw, because someone who behaves like that in real life is considered a flawed individual. However, if the narration acts like the asshole behavior is justified (without giving good reason) or even has other characters behave as though there is no asshole behavior, then there "is no character flaw", but anyone engaging with the media would still be able to see that the character is an asshole. . The fact that the narration acting like they're not an asshole can not make you, the reader/viewer think that being a dickwad is exactly the same thing as being super nice is why I say the flaws still exist.
The gap between characterization and narrative is where the bad writing is. Narrative SHOULD be part of characterization; having the narration/plot/other characters react to a characters actions/dialogue/personality in an reasonable way is SUPPOSED to be part of characterization. But sometimes, the author fucks up, and there's a gap. (Or else it's a super skilled author pulling off some kind of metanarrative mindfuck but we're not talking about that right now.)

You do have Mary Sues who actively lack flaws (e.g. they're not rude, they're not stupid) but in that case you're talking about characters who have no discernable traits at all, and who just get praised by the narration for no apparent reason. They're less characters and more walking plot devices, and don't usually get identified as Mary Sues in the first place, because why bother.

Then there's the Anti-Sue, who always fails, who are always being shat on by other characters for no apparent reason other than they exist, and are always shat on by the author for good measure, just to avoid being labeled a typical Mary Sue, but this in turn makes for worse writing since the author just wants to avoid writing a perfect character to dodge being the butt of jokes. It's effectively torture porn where the character would realistically lose their mind after going through such horrific treatment.

The other cringe thing about Mary Sues that I find distasteful to read through is the "flowery" prose in which they're described. I cringe like a motherfucker when the author is always self-fellating themselves through their character by essentially describing them as the "bestest thing evah!".

 

[LightDragonman1]

Do you guys think I should send you the link to the fic outline I have so far for you guys to laugh at?

 

[Petrusha the White]

That sounds powerlevel-y.

Edit: But if it's a franchise I'm familiar with, you could DM me and I can look it over. I used to write professionally.

 

[3MMA]

It isn't just an example of how a sue can ruin a plot but bad writing in general.

I’m not familiar with the series you are talking about, but agree that Mary Sue’s & Gary Stu’s ruin plots faster than anything. I think a big part of it is when looking at a fan fiction, you have to be very careful with original characters. Many writers treat their original characters (or others characters,) as too precious.

The mark of bad writing that really breaks my suspension of disbelief is this completely lazy, popular, convention I see often now. “I see often now. I see often now.” It’s that stupid, repeating the last phrase a few times in a row, convention. Some people use it to stress the importance of that moment, & it comes across as lazy rather than being poignant or deep. It immediately pull’s attention out of the work. It draws attention to the writers pretension as well. I dislike coming across it in anything I’m reading.

Especially if it’s fanfic, because a majority of fic authors currently don’t understand con crit, plus it’s a bad idea to just blurt out to someone, “Hey. That’s lazy writing & you sound like an asshole. Try using a new way to describe with more specificity.” I have to really like something or feel like giving critique to do so anymore.

When I started with fanfic, it was clearly understood that (just like anything else put online,) it was open season for comments. Whether they were constructive criticism, critique in general, mean spirited, or simple praise. I think many of us ITT have seen the change to what is common now, where writers get so defensive & are scared of criticism. I tell people who write that fanfic is a wonderful resource as you can get free criticism of your work that many people have historically had to pay for. Getting an involved critique is a compliment, one of the highest order. Even if they are wrong about style choices, it’s still a useful tool.

 

[under_scores]

Do you guys think I should send you the link to the fic outline I have so far for you guys to laugh at?

As mentioned, be careful about powerleveling in case you intend to post it on an ao3 account (edit: and google drive!) you'll use in the future. I considered the same, but you never know who's looking at it on here.
Actually, speaking of,

That sounds powerlevel-y.

Edit: But if it's a franchise I'm familiar with, you could DM me and I can look it over. I used to write professionally.

Mind if I do as well, sometime or another? All my stuff's too messy to share now, but I'd like to eventually.

 

[Petrusha the White]

Mind if I do as well, sometime or another? All my stuff's too messy to share now, but I'd like to eventually.

Sure, go ahead. No guarantees on any kind of turnaround but it doesn't take me long to check over outlines or edit. Only stipulation is that if it's for a franchise I don't know then all I could do re: editing is just grammar and stylistic choices.

@3MMA I can't quote you for some reason, but I agree completely. Back when I first started posting fic way back in like.. the late aughts, critique was so common that just getting a comment that said "This was good, I liked it!" was a huge surprise. My first fics got criticized pretty harshly, to the point where I took them down, but in retrospect I'm glad it happened. I learned a lot. Especially about what not to do.
The days of concrit aren't completely dead, though. I do still occasionally get critique on AO3. I suppose it's possible that I've personally garnered a reputation for being chill with it, since I'm fairly prolific in my chosen fandoms and therefore lots of people do at least know of me. But I think it might have more to do with the particular fandom. Seems to me like the older a fandom is, the more likely you are to still get concrit - I guess because older fandoms skew older in terms of the average age of the people reading the fics?
I may be off entirely, though. The only fic I've posted in years that actually revieced more than one critical review was a single fic where a lot of readers didn't really like the ending.

 

[3MMA]

@3MMA I can't quote you for some reason, but I agree completely. Back when I first started posting fic way back in like.. the late aughts, critique was so common that just getting a comment that said "This was good, I liked it!" was a huge surprise. My first fics got criticized pretty harshly, to the point where I took them down, but in retrospect I'm glad it happened. I learned a lot. Especially about what not to do.
The days of concrit aren't completely dead, though. I do still occasionally get critique on AO3. I suppose it's possible that I've personally garnered a reputation for being chill with it, since I'm fairly prolific in my chosen fandoms and therefore lots of people do at least know of me. But I think it might have more to do with the particular fandom. Seems to me like the older a fandom is, the more likely you are to still get concrit - I guess because older fandoms skew older in terms of the average age of the people reading the fics?
I may be off entirely, though. The only fic I've posted in years that actually revieced more than one critical review was a single fic where a lot of readers didn't really like the ending.

I think that growth takes time. My first experiences with hardcore concrit were humiliating. Once I got over myself, I realized how much better my performance became through that critique. I learned this lesson in a very hard way, in a different medium. I applied the lessons to writing, & it made my ability grow. Currently I’m not able to find the exact words I’d like to describe these lessons, but they were basically about humility & growth. Something about how you can’t add more water to a cup that is full. If you think you know everything, you learn nothing.

I’m noticing a resurgence of concrit on various fanfic archives. Slowly but surely & outside of any one fandom. Overall, I've been seeing minds changing, writers growing, & not being so fearful of the various aspects of growth.

Older fandoms do seem to have more in depth discussions going on in the comments sections on Ao3. I think part of the backlash towards concrit in fanfic communities started to get bad during the dark times of tumblerites & SJW’s infiltrating every type of online community in existence. The stage was set by about 2010, and the BS mindset only grew in popularity. I noticed it as a real attitude problem by about 2020, maybe earlier. By then, it was clear that something had gone terribly wrong with a core part of fanfic culture. I remember seeing very popular twitter posts making the rounds that lambasted anyone who dared say anything beyond “nice story, loved it,” that went on to declare concrit as a terrible evil. Of course there were a few voices of reason & wisdom, disagreeing, but takeover had already occurred. Luckily, nature is healing, as it does. Slowly but surely, those who write, & take part in writing, reading, & reviewing on fanfic sites, are embracing the ignored wisdom of the past, for themselves. Each writer who realizes that they’ve grown stronger as an artist due to concrit, is a victory in the direction of growth.

More comments tend to be given to works that challenge readers. I’ve noticed that too. Even during the extreme SJW-etiquette heyday which we’re currently living through, human nature is just like that. What many miss is that it’s the height of compliment to have your words recognized by another, so, the writing that works others up so much, has really touched them. This is part of why concrit is such a gift. I’ve noticed people tend to comment more on what they dislike, more than what they like (myself generally included.) I do my best to balance my criticism when possible, & also discuss what works in a story. Kinda had to get used to doing so more in the current day & age, to even attempt to get the message through. There is something wonderful about being able to discuss things with full honesty, (respectfully of course,) while not having to walk on eggshells in fear of an adult baby tantrum.

 

[LightDragonman1]

Yeah, I think I'll hold off on posting it. Again, all I have is mainly an outline so far, as I'm still working out the basics.

 

[Thiletonomics]

I'm just mildly surprised this doesn't have pronouns. Any other potentially cursed profiles?

View attachment 5810168

Speaking of, I'm not sure how to feel about profiles that literally are a writer's life story in it:



And apparently being bedridden given you enough time to write almost 5000 fics in about 11 years. Granted, some of those are less than 1k worlds long, which I guess makes it cheating somewhat:



And why are pseud profiles a thing on AO3?

 

[Gorillion others]

No idea. @Thiletonomics

Also, I've decided to delete my most recent post before this because it might come off as power leveling. My profile page is blank, though it might be a problem? I'm not sure. Was posting it here a mistake in the first place?

 

[Aunt Carol]

And why are pseud profiles a thing on AO3?

I think it's an additional way to sort your fandoms out. Not to hide an identity, of course, but to keep all works in one fandom under one author, using the screen name you're using in that fandom on other sites.

I've also seen people who use a pseud for original works or works in a very involved AU, while posting "canon" stories under their main.

 

[Chandelier]

The days of concrit aren't completely dead, though. I do still occasionally get critique on AO3. I suppose it's possible that I've personally garnered a reputation for being chill with it, since I'm fairly prolific in my chosen fandoms and therefore lots of people do at least know of me. But I think it might have more to do with the particular fandom. Seems to me like the older a fandom is, the more likely you are to still get concrit - I guess because older fandoms skew older in terms of the average age of the people reading the fics?

The few authors who do take concrit are so few and far in between I have to do double takes when I find them. One author noted my noticing of her abusing adverbs. She fixed it and her work improved literally overnight. I was so charmed I ended up liking a pairing I usually am not privy too.

I think people who endured the flame wars have a little thicker skin. Good concrit or reviewers being honest with you is valuable too. I'm very self conscious as a writer; concrit helps me see where I'm going wrong and whether I'm a mega failure or not.