Opinion End useless math requirements - Smartest journalist

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I know only two people who can readily recite the quadratic formula. My wife is one. She’s always been a whiz at school, but, as a choir teacher, she has absolutely no use for the equation (other than as an occasional party trick). The other person is my brother, who works with electron-beam technology as a mechanical engineer. He’s in the minority of people who actually use advanced math daily.

For most of us, the formula was one of many alphabet soup combinations crammed into our heads in high school long enough to pass a math test, then promptly forgotten. I’m queasy all over again just thinking about it. As a functioning adult in society, I have no use for imaginary numbers or the Pythagorean theorem. I’ve never needed to determine the height of a flagpole by measuring its shadow and the angle of the sun.

Only 22 percent of the nation’s workers use any math more advanced than fractions, and they typically occupy technical or skilled positions. That means more than three-fourths of the population spends painful years in school futzing with numbers when they could be learning something more useful.

I’m talking about applied logic. This branch of philosophy grows from the same mental tree as algebra and geometry but lacks the distracting foliage of numbers and formulas. Call it the art of thinking clearly. We need this urgently in this era of disinformation, in which politicians and media personalities play on our emotions and fears.

Logic teaches us how to trace a claim back to its underlying premises and to test each link in a chain of thought for unsupported assumptions or fallacies. People trained in logic are better able to spot the deceptions and misdirection that politicians so often employ. They also have a better appreciation for different points of view because they understand the thought processes that produce multiple legitimate conclusions concerning the same set of facts. They are comfortable with spirited dialogue about what’s best for our society.

I once asked my pre-calculus teacher whether I would ever use the information she taught in real life. Her answer was surprisingly frank: I probably wouldn’t. The reason to take the class was to score well on the advanced placement test, which would give me a leg up on the math requirements in college. In other words, numbers for the sake of numbers.

Math advocates claim to be teaching complex problem solving, mental discipline and a better understanding of our world. Logic teaches the same things more directly. Geometry can’t teach me when an argument is manipulating my emotions, but logic can. Calculus doesn’t help me solve moral dilemmas, but philosophy does.

Admittedly, all students need to master the basic math of everyday life so they can manage money, compare prices, find the center of a wall to hang a picture and so on. And some students, like my brother, will fall in love with math. That’s a good thing, because they will use it to make bridges safe, to predict the weather, to land spacecraft on the moon and Mars — you get the idea.

It’s reasonable to suggest that public schools all provide a standardized core curriculum. But what makes up a fundamental education? America has not thought through this question in a national conversation since the 1983 release of “A Nation At Risk.” The product of a presidential commission on education, this report warned of declining achievement in the country’s schools and diagnosed “the urgent need for improvement.” Among its recommendations were a minimum of three years of math for all high school graduates.

Since that time, the digital revolution has placed massive computational power in the palm of every student’s hand. Should the need for a cube root arise in someone’ life, Siri is available 24/7 to provide the answer. That same revolution has given us a crisis of conspiracy theories and a polluted public discourse. What’s at risk now is our ability to reason together as citizens. Skills such as these might not be able to solve for X, but they could go a long way in the pursuit of happiness and the health of America. You can’t punch those things into a calculator.

The need to solve problems is eternal, but many of life’s weightiest problems don’t boil down to numbers. Prioritizing higher-level numeracy over other forms of logical reasoning is not turning us into a nation of engineers and physicists. It’s letting us become a nation that can’t think straight.

America’s Founders knew it would take educated citizens for this democratic republic to succeed. But nowhere did they mention the quadratic formula.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/02/06/end-useless-math-requirements/ (Archive)
 
We rip on illegal immigrants taking all the fast food and construction jobs, but the reason why is because a serious business never wants to take the chance of dealing with surly teenagers.

Yes, if I can pay an adult the same wage I would pay a teenager, I would prefer to hire an adult. If the only way to pay an adult as little as you would pay a child is to hire illegal labor, then that's just too fuckin' bad. Either hire teenagers or pay more.
 
Math classes are an ongoing IQ test to punish lazy children for their sloth and to punish stupid children. Reducing them in any way is moral cowardice.
 
Anyone who thinks math is a useless skill lives a useless life. Such a shame, I wager they'll stop encouraging students from joining STEM programs and stop teaching the scientific method next. I'm constantly amazed how principles I learned in physics, chemistry, and math pop up and show their usefulness in my life.
 
I would honestly be willing to have a public discussion about the value of most K12 education-let's be generous and say only 40% of the population has either the aptitude or inherent interest in the subject material. Whether they want to be mathematicians or engineers, historians or history teachers, scientists or video game designers-that's a minority of the population if a significant one.

Most people probably in their day to day life, don't need algebra. They don't need history or science or art. Sure they and society as a whole will benefit-but that's assuming they want to enjoy those benefits. Rather than in one ear and out the other.

If we agree a sizable portion of the population basically just needs the basics for job training, staying out of debt or jail-then maybe we can re organize the education system.

Perhaps on some sort of tier system.

Tier A for more intellectual professions-subdivided into various subfields. Academia, STEM, Education and Education adjacent, creative work, and so on.

Tier B-menial labor, social and interpersonal skills, basic arithmetic, office related, etc... jobs

These tracks would diverge-say around 6th to 8th grade.
 
Fuck it, why bother with mass education at all. The kids don’t care and we live in communism anyway so no one single individual is expected to do anything… education should probably be a mentorship thing especially with the hard sciences. That stuff needs to be very closely mentored from teacher to student on a one on one basis. The rest of the kids can… pick fruit I guess? Once we stop importing illegals we’ll need someone to pick the strawberries and bag the cabbage and no machine can do that yet.
 
I would honestly be willing to have a public discussion about the value of most K12 education-let's be generous and say only 40% of the population has either the aptitude or inherent interest in the subject material. Whether they want to be mathematicians or engineers, historians or history teachers, scientists or video game designers-that's a minority of the population if a significant one.

Most people probably in their day to day life, don't need algebra. They don't need history or science or art. Sure they and society as a whole will benefit-but that's assuming they want to enjoy those benefits. Rather than in one ear and out the other.

If we agree a sizable portion of the population basically just needs the basics for job training, staying out of debt or jail-then maybe we can re organize the education system.

Perhaps on some sort of tier system.

Tier A for more intellectual professions-subdivided into various subfields. Academia, STEM, Education and Education adjacent, creative work, and so on.

Tier B-menial labor, social and interpersonal skills, basic arithmetic, office related, etc... jobs

These tracks would diverge-say around 6th to 8th grade.
Students should also be filtered by Myers-Briggs testing. Some jobs are better for certain personalities than others instead of the years of muddling through we have now.
 
No, no, no, as much as I hate math and know everything besides the basics are irrelevant for most people, it's still very important to teach these things in school. We need people to learn this stuff because you never know where it might lead and who might benefit from it. Otherwise you end up with the novel Feed. Also, "X equals negative B plus or minus the square root of B squared minus 4ac, all over 2a, that's the quadratic equation". I still remember it to this day because my teacher taught it to us as a song.
Nevermind that math as a requirement is meant to show that you're a critical thinker.

Being in engineering, I know I'm not going to use the quadratic equation in my work. Most of what I learn in school isn't going to be applicable in real life. But because I was critically thinking so much in school, I critically think a lot in my job. And doing this in high school helped me determine whether I wanted to continue doing it in college as opposed to doing it in college.

Also, I was also taught the quadratic equation in the exact song.
 
I don't think the problem is the math itself.

It's how godawful the way it's taught is, and the attempt to shoehorn every student into the style of their assigned teacher. The fact that people willingly, in their own leisure time, watch math, or other educational content on Youtube, with a wide variety of creators and styles should be a testament to how much of the resentment towards math lies not in the subject matter itself; but in the way it is taught.

The fact that math and physics are taught as separate subjects, instead of combining those with the opportunity for students to bring a practical project, physical or virtual, to life is a travesty.

Even though such techniques have their limits, they would definitely help students though the parts that we haven't figured out how to teach in an interesting manner yet.
 
I was amused to see some article at some point showing the use of mathematics skills in various occupations.

One massive spike of math competence was among machinists, and it's obvious why: They are basically dealing with geometry problems constantly in the production of parts. Trigonometry is like breathing to those people. Constant awareness of quantitative sizes, constant counting of steps and turns and offsets, etc.

Which is amusing whenever I see some Eloi putting on intellectual airs because they can bullshit hack academia, but crying about algebra, and imagining themselves to be some cognitive elite. Meanwhile in a garage in banjostan, some sufficiently advanced redneck is welding up a properly loaded and balanced truss for a belly-tank racer. Or doing donuts around the fields in an ultralight. Or aligning squareness on a precision machine. Yep, nothing to see here, just a bunch of mindless Morlocks.
 
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The thing that shocks me the most about college math is how even engineering students don't need anything beyond Calculus 3 usually. That should tell you how absurd math really is. everyone needs calc 1 but an extra year of math beyond that is all you need for the most math intensive jobs on the planet apparently. Imagine if the only difference between a pro athlete and a regular person was just an extra year of practice. of course we don't need that much math. The problem is we decided back when the aryan race reigned supreme that we did and now we're seeing a lot of problems because of it.
a bunch of mindless Morlocks.
imagine referencing a story you probably only know of from being forced to read it in middle school and thinking you're part of the elite.
For you Boomers and Gen Xers that thought Head of the Class was realistic, your average high school today is more like Class of '09.
did you see my thread on Class of '09, even suggesting such that game isn't CP pisses off most of the kiwifarm users. Saying its a fairly realistic of take of teenage life would lead to them asking for you to step into a woodchipper.

You're also missing a big reason fast food and other jobs don't hire the under 18 is because of state bureaucracy. you just need an i-9 at some point to hire an over 18 but there's so many laws on hiring teenagers its insane. And then there's so many states and bullshit about dealing with alcohol that some grocery stores won't hire someone under 21 to return carts or work as a cashier.
being skilled is not as important as being liked,
to be fair this is also true, the popular girls go from fucking the quarterback to fucking someone in C-suite and being given an HR job. If you couldn't convince Katie to put out in high school then you won't be able to convince her to give you the job when she's grilling you at the job interview as an adult. And much like my example, the blacks have an easier time of it. I know a surprising amount of white dudes that pulled a soul man to get at least one job because white women fucking love immigrants but won't give a white guy the time of day (when it comes to hiring i mean, not fucking)

school itself has always been a daycare, multiple homeschooling parents were shocked how easily their kids would breeze through an entire year of schooling in weeks once it was 1 on 1 vs being in a class of 30 half of whom are black or immigrants and the teacher spends 90% of the time repeating herself until those groups lie and say they understand.

You can get your average white 6 year old all the way to 6th grade math if you spend even an hour a week on flashcards, same with reading. This reminds me of how my siblings whined about how boring and slow little league is. They're too fucking stupid to realize most clubs or sports especially little league assume the kid has never even seen a baseball before nor have a dad at home that practices with them and knows proper pitching and swinging techniques.

Thats a big reason pre-george floyd you had huge movements to start teaching Algebra in 7th grade and why the chinese take it in 6th grade without much whining.
 
I would honestly be willing to have a public discussion about the value of most K12 education-let's be generous and say only 40% of the population has either the aptitude or inherent interest in the subject material. Whether they want to be mathematicians or engineers, historians or history teachers, scientists or video game designers-that's a minority of the population if a significant one.

Most people probably in their day to day life, don't need algebra. They don't need history or science or art. Sure they and society as a whole will benefit-but that's assuming they want to enjoy those benefits. Rather than in one ear and out the other.

If we agree a sizable portion of the population basically just needs the basics for job training, staying out of debt or jail-then maybe we can re organize the education system.

Perhaps on some sort of tier system.

Tier A for more intellectual professions-subdivided into various subfields. Academia, STEM, Education and Education adjacent, creative work, and so on.

Tier B-menial labor, social and interpersonal skills, basic arithmetic, office related, etc... jobs

These tracks would diverge-say around 6th to 8th grade.
Sincerely believe the only reason high school is four years long is that colleges, employers, and the military would have too many problems absorbing so many sixteen-year-olds.

High school should be two years, max. Personally, got about six months of useful info spread out over four years, Learned to cook, learned to drive, a smattering of French, and that's about it. Got more out of one semester of community college than from four years of high school. Heck, during fall semester senior year of high school took a college course at night, far more interesting than anything I was studying in high school.

Observation - for many, high school is the best four years of their lives. Really must eat shit to know on your high school graduation day that the rest of your life is all downhill. There's a reason high school classmates sites are popular. Get to see how well classmates have done, or not done. Very easy to read between the lines.
 
I don't think the problem is the math itself.

It's how godawful the way it's taught is, and the attempt to shoehorn every student into the style of their assigned teacher. The fact that people willingly, in their own leisure time, watch math, or other educational content on Youtube, with a wide variety of creators and styles should be a testament to how much of the resentment towards math lies not in the subject matter itself; but in the way it is taught.

The fact that math and physics are taught as separate subjects, instead of combining those with the opportunity for students to bring a practical project, physical or virtual, to life is a travesty.

Even though such techniques have their limits, they would definitely help students though the parts that we haven't figured out how to teach in an interesting manner yet.
Yeah, people complain about trannies in schools, but Common Core did a lot more damage than trannies have ever done. Arguably Pre-Algebra too as it doesn't make as much sense without a Cartesian graph to work with.
Observation - for many, high school is the best four years of their lives. Really must eat shit to know on your high school graduation day that the rest of your life is all downhill. There's a reason high school classmates sites are popular. Get to see how well classmates have done, or not done. Very easy to read between the lines.
This is the most boomer take. For Millenials and younger, it would be college and not because of its academic rigor. High school is minimum security prison, especially in strong truancy law states like California (which is an actual merit for Kamala Harris).
 
I'm not unsympathetic to the idea of a free range HS-that is youth have a few hours of instruction, the rest of the time is spent doing stuff outside-playing games, running around each other's crushes, sex and love and drama(albeit within limits).

Youth ideally shouldn't be a grind of mindless labor but that goes against the way our society functions. It should be an idyllic dance around clean streams and involve all the cute little games young people play.

(Albeit I realize this is a very idealistic view).
 
Calculus doesn’t help me solve moral dilemmas, but philosophy does.
According to philosophy, if there are 5 kiwis tied on a railroad and the jornoscum who wrote this article on another, who should I save from the incoming trolley?
 
Biochem though. Fuck biochem. I will never need to know that shit in order to do surgery. Who the fuck needs to know what an oxyanion hole does to cut into someone? Why do I have to memorize all this shit???
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Wallcharts like these are impressive on the walls of labs and dorms, but I doubt any PhDs in Biochem remembers more than one small bit from it.

Biochem courses for Med students are nowadays dominated by molecular genetics, molecular immunology, and perhaps even bioinformatics. These are of course extremely important in medical practice and will only get even more important in the future. But knowledge about some biochemical pathways remain essential to medicine: they help doctors understand the pathologies of common diseases and commonly-used drugs. Some examples I can think of:
  • Glucose metabolism; the TCA cycle as source of raw material for some amino acids (actual synthesis of amino acid from TCA products are less important). Conversely, the conversion of amino acids to glucose (gluconeogenesis), the disruption of which is important in conditions like liver failure.
  • Lipid metabolism; the conversion of glucose into triglyceride; the product of triglyceride breakdown (important in diabetes complications). Synthesis of cholesterol and its control, and conversion of cholesterol to steroid hormones. Synthesis of prostaglandins and related substances.
  • Metabolism of nitrogenous waste especially purine metabolism.
  • Synthesis of nucleotides, the pathways of which which are targets of some anticancer drugs.
 
Honestly speaking, advanced math (anything beyond calculus) is useful but in ways that aren't too obvious, for example, functional analysis is an area of math that deals with infinite dimensional vector spaces yet it's used to prove the Picard-Lindelöf theorem which proves the existence and uniqueness of solutions to a family of ODEs, moreover, it provides a way to compute iteratively such solutions. The point of the aforementioned example is that whoever uses software that implements Picard Iterations doesn't need to know the math, but whoever wrote it does.
 
As someone that actually has a certified diploma in Math from an online education site, I’m not even anywhere close to Ph.D or Masters holder to tell you that articles disdaining people from doing mathematics is just another way of making more people dumb through the force of indoctrination and not real education.

Without math or even the hardest aspects of it, you would have a population of people that want to turn universities and school as a whole into a place where teaching kids how to get real jobs and success in the workforce will just be dead.
 
No. If anything, more math should be taught. Honestly, I am flabbergasted as to why Kiwifarms wants LESS math in schools.

Schools are already indoctrination camps, and you are here agreeing with journalists that you want LESS objectivity in schools. No. Hard no.
 
I use trig quite a bit to work on projects. I see this as a slippery slope to abolish all things the remedial class cannot grasp easily. I mean this might be one giant fucking psyop long-con to eliminate math from public school and the working class won't even know what percentage of their hourly slave wage even ends up in their pocket. Don't we see this already? Banking fees for e-mails? penalties for minimum balances? Aren't these things already existing to take advantage of the Low-IQ customer?
 
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