Opinion Elections Are Bad for Democracy - NYT

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On the eve of the first debate of the 2024 presidential race, trust in government is rivaling historic lows. Officials have been working hard to safeguard elections and assure citizens of their integrity. But if we want public office to have integrity, we might be better off eliminating elections altogether.

If you think that sounds anti-democratic, think again. The ancient Greeks invented democracy, and in Athens many government officials were selected through sortition — a random lottery from a pool of candidates. In the United States, we already use a version of a lottery to select jurors. What if we did the same with mayors, governors, legislators, justices and even presidents?

People expect leaders chosen at random to be less effective than those picked systematically. But in multiple experiments led by the psychologist Alexander Haslam, the opposite held true. Groups actually made smarter decisions when leaders were chosen at random than when they were elected by a group or chosen based on leadership skill.

Why were randomly chosen leaders more effective? They led more democratically. “Systematically selected leaders can undermine group goals,” Dr. Haslam and his colleagues suggest, because they have a tendency to “assert their personal superiority.” When you’re anointed by the group, it can quickly go to your head: I’m the chosen one.

When you know you’re picked at random, you don’t experience enough power to be corrupted by it. Instead, you feel a heightened sense of responsibility: I did nothing to earn this, so I need to make sure I represent the group well. And in one of the Haslam experiments, when a leader was picked at random, members were more likely to stand by the group’s decisions.

Over the past year I’ve floated the idea of sortition with a number of current members of Congress. Their immediate concern is ability: How do we make sure that citizens chosen randomly are capable of governing?

In ancient Athens, people had a choice about whether to participate in the lottery. They also had to pass an examination of their capacity to exercise public rights and duties. In America, imagine that anyone who wants to enter the pool has to pass a civics test — the same standard as immigrants applying for citizenship. We might wind up with leaders who understand the Constitution.

A lottery would also improve our odds of avoiding the worst candidates in the first place. When it comes to character, our elected officials aren’t exactly crushing it. To paraphrase William F. Buckley Jr., I’d rather be governed by the first 535 people in the phone book. That’s because the people most drawn to power are usually the least fit to wield it.

The most dangerous traits in a leader are what psychologists call the dark triad of personality traits: narcissism, Machiavellianism and psychopathy. What these traits share is a willingness to exploit others for personal gain. People with dark triad traits tend to be more politically ambitious — they’re attracted to authority for its own sake. But we often fall under their spell. Is that you, George Santos?

In a study of elections worldwide, candidates who were rated by experts as having high psychopathy scores actually did better at the ballot box. In the United States, presidents assessed as having psychopathic and narcissistic tendencies were more persuasive with the public than their peers. A common explanation is that they’re masters of fearless dominance and superficial charm, and we mistake their confidence for competence. Sadly, it starts early: Even kids who display narcissistic personality traits get more leadership nominations and claim to be better leaders. (They aren’t.)

If the dark triad wins an election, we all lose. When psychologists rated the first 42 American presidents, the narcissists were more likely to take reckless risks, make unethical decisions and get impeached. Add a dash of Machiavellianism and a pinch of psychopathy, and you get autocrats like Putin, Erdoğan, Orbán and Duterte.

Eliminate voting, and candidates with dark triad traits would be less likely than they are now to rise to the top. Of course, there’s also a risk that a lottery would deprive us of the chance to select a leader with distinctive skills. At this point, that’s a risk I’m willing to take. As lucky as America was to have Lincoln at the helm, it’s more important to limit our exposure to bad character than to roll the dice on the hopes of finding the best.

Besides, if Lincoln were alive now, it’s hard to imagine that he’d even put his top hat in the ring. In a world filled with divisiveness and derision, evidence shows that members of Congress are increasingly rewarded for incivility. And they know it.

A lottery would give a fair shot to people who aren’t tall enough or male enough to win. It would also open the door to people who aren’t connected or wealthy enough to run. Our broken campaign finance system lets the rich and powerful buy their way into races while preventing people without money or influence from getting on the ballot. They’re probably better candidates: Research suggests that on average, people who grow up in low-income families tend to be more effective leaders and less likely to cheat — they’re less prone to narcissism and entitlement.

Switching to sortition would save a lot of money too. The 2020 elections alone cost upward of $14 billion. And if there’s no campaign, there are no special interests offering to help pay for it.

Finally, no voting also means no boundaries to gerrymander and no Electoral College to dispute. Instead of questioning whether millions of ballots were counted accurately, we could watch the lottery live, like we do with teams getting their lottery picks in the NBA draft.

Other countries have begun to see the promise of sortition. Two decades ago, Canadian provinces and the Dutch government started using sortition to create citizens’ assemblies that generated ideas for improving democracy. In the past few years, the French, British and German governments have run lotteries to select citizens to work on climate change policies. Ireland tried a hybrid model, gathering 33 politicians and 66 randomly chosen citizens for its 2012 constitutional convention. In Bolivia, the nonprofit Democracy in Practice works with schools to replace student council elections with lotteries. Instead of elevating the usual suspects, it welcomes a wider range of students to lead and solve real problems in their schools and their communities.

As we prepare for America to turn 250 years old, it may be time to rethink and renew our approach to choosing officials. The lifeblood of a democracy is the active participation of the people. There is nothing more democratic than offering each and every citizen an equal opportunity to lead.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/21/opinion/elections-democracy.html (Archive)
 
I would trust this randomness more than a popularity contest, but both are just as likely to be rigged by Democrats anyway.
 
This article has convinced me we need to bring back the Monarchy and Landed Aristocracy. Your power is based solely upon the land you own and the people under your care. At the very least if we had a landed aristocracy under a monarchical throne, forsaking the welfare of the country for some globalist pie in the sky agenda would be the furthest thing from our leaders minds since their fate and power would be bound to the land, and the people who lived on it.

I see in this article the ultimate end of the 200 year liberal experiment. The age of enlightenments apotheosis. And failure.
 
I would trust this randomness more than a popularity contest, but both are just as likely to be rigged by Democrats anyway.
Thinking it out in practice, if it was announced tomorrow that there was to be a lottery for political positions instead of a vote, someone or some kind of group would try to bring in tons of foreigners and immigrants they can pander to and use them as additional chances to get a person that agrees with them in power.

There is also the statistical fact there is a chance you may get a number of bad politicians in a row, this can go the other way to of course but still.
 
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What we lack is a true concern for the society and it’s future in the people in charge. The people who want power shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near it. People who want society to be stable and thriving should be the ones governing.
We have a ruling class who are both elected and unelected (politicians, media, NGOs, banking, corporate) and their wants are not aligned with what’s best for society.
If everyone in charge had a true reason for wanting society to thrive and be good, we’d instantly see better outcomes.
People need two things actually: a stake in the future of their society, and the knowledge that the people they’re governing can oust them.
What’s that cautionary tale from history? The desk of the chief judge was made from the skin of his predecessor, just to make that point.
I firmly believe that those in charge should have to live off the median wage of their country, and live in the most deprived and crime ridden area of it, without security.
That alone would sort a lot of stuff.
Would also add term limits of up to maybe 3 terms, no special privileges of the position, not able to profit off the position for say 15-20 years after holding it (family included and includes no insider trading), severe consequences for putting forth laws that are later found to be unconstitutional, and more but I'm tired and didn't get enough crayons to eat today.
 
I don't think it's some deeper commie meaning more than just usual ragebait. The whole thing fails on pure scale - You don't choose someone to rule a city state, but 300 millions people, while needing to wade through decades old bureaucracy that, unlike political leaders, don't need to be re-elected

This article has convinced me we need to bring back the Monarchy and Landed Aristocracy
Isn't this already the situation at the USA? The elites are basically aristocracy way above the common man and laws? You have senate members that are medically dead, yet run their power through their children.
 
You mean elections you know you can't win or should I say steal are bad for you and your "team".

That's right faggots. You got away with it in 2020 but you can't do it again in 2024. You will have to face Trump on a completely fair level playing field and that scares the shit out of you. No more China virus to get your mail in ballots. People will be voting in person. Mostly for Trump. Biden is as hated as Hillary now if not more. He won't be getting the "at least he isn't Hillary" vote this time. 100,000+ votes across 5 states. That's what they stole 2020 with. The margins in those 5 states were pretty thin. Shave off a million or two from Biden's popular vote total and Trump has this easily.
If Trump gets the nomination, I wouldn't put it pass them.
It's not an if. Trump will get the nomination. They won't suspend the election though.
 
We might wind up with leaders who understand the Constitution.
There are plenty of people who understand; and like Obama espoused, want to change it.

This person also failed to understand that even the ancient Greeks knew that diversity was not a strength, but something that tears at social cohesion.

Also, looking at how the military is having to run summer camps to get fatties to lose weight and retards to pass the already retardedly simple ASVAB; I ask myself, would I really want these people to be in a position of authority? And I ask this, because we already have people screaming about representation and how competency tests are one of the most evil and racist things ever concocted. So even if your idea was to be tried, we'd have to tell every darky and progressive retard to sit down and shut the fuck up and how they're dumber than a fucking bag of hammers.
 
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archive
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Damage control name


By Adam Grant
Dr. Grant, a contributing Opinion writer, is an organizational psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School, the author of “Think Again” and the host of the TED podcast “Re:Thinking.”

On the eve of the first debate of the 2024 presidential race, trust in government is rivaling historic lows. Officials have been working hard to safeguard elections and assure citizens of their integrity. But if we want public office to have integrity, we might be better off eliminating elections altogether.
If you think that sounds anti-democratic, think again. The ancient Greeks invented democracy, and in Athens many government officials were selected through sortition — a random lottery from a pool of candidates. In the United States, we already use a version of a lottery to select jurors. What if we did the same with mayors, governors, legislators, justices and even presidents?
People expect leaders chosen at random to be less effective than those picked systematically. But in multiple experiments led by the psychologist Alexander Haslam, the opposite held true. Groups actually made smarter decisions when leaders were chosen at random than when they were elected by a group or chosen based on leadership skill.
Why were randomly chosen leaders more effective? They led more democratically. “Systematically selected leaders can undermine group goals,” Dr. Haslam and his colleagues suggest, because they have a tendency to “assert their personal superiority.” When you’re anointed by the group, it can quickly go to your head: I’m the chosen one.

When you know you’re picked at random, you don’t experience enough power to be corrupted by it. Instead, you feel a heightened sense of responsibility: I did nothing to earn this, so I need to make sure I represent the group well. And in one of the Haslam experiments, when a leader was picked at random, members were more likely to stand by the group’s decisions.
Over the past year I’ve floated the idea of sortition with a number of current members of Congress. Their immediate concern is ability: How do we make sure that citizens chosen randomly are capable of governing?
In ancient Athens, people had a choice about whether to participate in the lottery. They also had to pass an examination of their capacity to exercise public rights and duties. In America, imagine that anyone who wants to enter the pool has to pass a civics test — the same standard as immigrants applying for citizenship. We might wind up with leaders who understand the Constitution.

A lottery would also improve our odds of avoiding the worst candidates in the first place. When it comes to character, our elected officials aren’t exactly crushing it. To paraphrase William F. Buckley Jr., I’d rather be governed by the first 535 people in the phone book. That’s because the people most drawn to power are usually the least fit to wield it.
The most dangerous traits in a leader are what psychologists call the dark triad of personality traits: narcissism, Machiavellianism and psychopathy. What these traits share is a willingness to exploit others for personal gain. People with dark triad traits tend to be more politically ambitious — they’re attracted to authority for its own sake. But we often fall under their spell. Is that you, George Santos?

In a study of elections worldwide, candidates who were rated by experts as having high psychopathy scores actually did better at the ballot box. In the United States, presidents assessed as having psychopathic and narcissistic tendencies were more persuasive with the public than their peers. A common explanation is that they’re masters of fearless dominance and superficial charm, and we mistake their confidence for competence. Sadly, it starts early: Even kids who display narcissistic personality traits get more leadership nominations and claim to be better leaders. (They aren’t.)
If the dark triad wins an election, we all lose. When psychologists rated the first 42 American presidents, the narcissists were more likely to take reckless risks, make unethical decisions and get impeached. Add a dash of Machiavellianism and a pinch of psychopathy, and you get autocrats like Putin, Erdoğan, Orbán and Duterte.
Eliminate voting, and candidates with dark triad traits would be less likely than they are now to rise to the top. Of course, there’s also a risk that a lottery would deprive us of the chance to select a leader with distinctive skills. At this point, that’s a risk I’m willing to take. As lucky as America was to have Lincoln at the helm, it’s more important to limit our exposure to bad character than to roll the dice on the hopes of finding the best.
Besides, if Lincoln were alive now, it’s hard to imagine that he’d even put his top hat in the ring. In a world filled with divisiveness and derision, evidence shows that members of Congress are increasingly rewarded for incivility. And they know it.
A lottery would give a fair shot to people who aren’t tall enough or male enough to win. It would also open the door to people who aren’t connected or wealthy enough to run. Our broken campaign finance system lets the rich and powerful buy their way into races while preventing people without money or influence from getting on the ballot. They’re probably better candidates: Research suggests that on average, people who grow up in low-income families tend to be more effective leaders and less likely to cheat — they’re less prone to narcissism and entitlement.

Switching to sortition would save a lot of money too. The 2020 elections alone cost upward of $14 billion. And if there’s no campaign, there are no special interests offering to help pay for it.
Finally, no voting also means no boundaries to gerrymander and no Electoral College to dispute. Instead of questioning whether millions of ballots were counted accurately, we could watch the lottery live, like we do with teams getting their lottery picks in the NBA draft.
Other countries have begun to see the promise of sortition. Two decades ago, Canadian provinces and the Dutch government started using sortition to create citizens’ assemblies that generated ideas for improving democracy. In the past few years, the French, British and German governments have run lotteries to select citizens to work on climate change policies. Ireland tried a hybrid model, gathering 33 politicians and 66 randomly chosen citizens for its 2012 constitutional convention. In Bolivia, the nonprofit Democracy in Practice works with schools to replace student council elections with lotteries. Instead of elevating the usual suspects, it welcomes a wider range of students to lead and solve real problems in their schools and their communities.
As we prepare for America to turn 250 years old, it may be time to rethink and renew our approach to choosing officials. The lifeblood of a democracy is the active participation of the people. There is nothing more democratic than offering each and every citizen an equal opportunity to lead.


Obligatory
 
The ancient Greeks invented democracy, and in Athens many government officials were selected through sortition — a random lottery from a pool of candidates
This stupidly presumes that the creator knows best. There's a reason we moved beyond Greek version.
What if we did the same with mayors, governors, legislators, justices and even presidents?
It'd be even more retarded than the system we already have. Our current system is based on the prospective justifying their talents and existence to the voters, and while it is undeniable that there are many faults and lack of safeguards besides, making it all random would only make our governments even more, as hard that is to believe, incompetent.
But in multiple experiments led by the psychologist Alexander Haslam, the opposite held true. Groups actually made smarter decisions when leaders were chosen at random than when they were elected by a group or chosen based on leadership skill.
Notably the study described the groups as "small".

First Experiment had 188 students and was based on common sense logical questions (what would you as a group do on a stranded island) to which there are only so many answers, most of which widely agreed upon.

Second Experiment wasn't better either. It had 167 students asked to "rank items in terms of their importance for survival in a fallout shelter."

Not only is this very small scale and dealing with limited options facing common consensus (and therefore not applicable to government), there is nothing to suggest that this small scale thing would work on a larger scale. Notably all the major successful corporations choose the CEO not by randomness but by voting for the talent.
Why were randomly chosen leaders more effective? They led more democratically.
This makes no sense unless you already believe in the priori idea that 'democracy equals all good and effective', which is factually not the case. No other government in the history of the democratic world has managed to replicate the economic effects of Nazi Germany, effects that the West has acknowledged. See:
Fascism in Germany, for example, managed to achieve a 100% employment of all eligible workers. Even BBC had to admit it.
If Democratic model was indeed more effective, we would see benefits. Instead we see a lot of downsides both economical, sociatial, and political. The roaring engine of the world, US, had risen economically despite Democracy, not because of it.
When you’re anointed by the group, it can quickly go to your head: I’m the chosen one.
This is nonsense. You are the chosen one whether you are specifically selected or when you are selected by random.
When you know you’re picked at random, you don’t experience enough power to be corrupted by it
This somehow implies that the randomness decreases your powers, which is simply not true.
I did nothing to earn this, so I need to make sure I represent the group well.
Or, "I did nothing to earn this, might as well exploit it."
Their immediate concern is ability: How do we make sure that citizens chosen randomly are capable of governing?
Literally the only time Congress had a genuinely smart thought.
They also had to pass an examination of their capacity to exercise public rights and duties.
This again, presumes that there is some inherent factor that shows ability to govern, and allows for governmental censorship of candidates based on abstract requirements besides.
In America, imagine that anyone who wants to enter the pool has to pass a civics test — the same standard as immigrants applying for citizenship. We might wind up with leaders who understand the Constitution.
The idea that politicians understand and care for laws and rights is laughable. None of the world's countries do anything about the human rights abuse by UN (funded by your tax dollars), abuse they have publicly admitted since 1996(and track their abuses on their website and whether or not the abusers were punished (most cases they were not, and when they were it was an inhouse punishment, not by law (out of 1493 confirmed victims since 2010, governments punished only 101 by jail) UN also threatened, doxed, and harrassed doctors who didn't agree with Covid narrative)
In the past few years, the French, British and German governments have run lotteries to select citizens to work on climate change policies
Thank you for helping convince me your idea is retarded.
 
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I know there are users on this site who would be considered leftists who smarmily rejected the idea of election fraud, but it does seem that it happened and the people in charge are trying to make sure that they never have to work so hard again.

Acknowledging that the people in power want to stay in power by any means is not a far-fetched and inane idea - ti's incredibly true to life. Blinding yourself to the corruption inherent in political systems is not doing yourself any favors.
 
They won't suspend the election though.
With how those who swore to defend and uphold the Constitution have violated it in so many ways, what will stop them from suspending the election? The NPCs follow whatever the TV people say and cuckservatives have declared the God-given rights, they claim to support, have limitations (free speech doesn't protect you if threaten government officials but they sure as shit can threaten you).
 
In America, imagine that anyone who wants to enter the pool has to pass a civics test — the same standard as immigrants applying for citizenship. We might wind up with leaders who understand the Constitution.
Oh yes, all those legislators with their law degrees don't understand the Constitution. Clearly what we need is a civics test.
 
Next up: Why Communism is the way to go and why Free Will and Property Ownership is bullshit.

Yuri Bezmenov was right about the demoralized. They get in everywhere and do their best to bring the country into crisis. Just so Communists can normalize it via a Red Revolution.

Can't wait for the inevitable conclusion these Communists will get when they get to that phase. They'll be executed en masse because they'll be incensed that they're not the ones who came into power and will become the new system's worst enemy.

Subverters job is to only destroy. Not lead. After all, most of the hardcore communists tend to stem from spoiled middle/rich class as well as dregs of society. No-one with any real experience in leading a country let alone a group.
 
Eliminate voting, and candidates with dark triad traits would be less likely than they are now to rise to the top. Of course, there’s also a risk that a lottery would deprive us of the chance to select a leader with distinctive skills. At this point, that’s a risk I’m willing to take. As lucky as America was to have Lincoln at the helm, it’s more important to limit our exposure to bad character than to roll the dice on the hopes of finding the best.

Besides, if Lincoln were alive now, it’s hard to imagine that he’d even put his top hat in the ring. In a world filled with divisiveness and derision, evidence shows that members of Congress are increasingly rewarded for incivility. And they know it.

Hey, fuck you cocksucker.

The 1850s was filled with lots of violence like John Brown decided to go on a rampage against slavers. And then staged an honest to god insurrection against the lolocrats in DC.

I feel like Adam might not have a great knowledge of history but heard about some things that he thinks are a great idea because he is not very smart and did not bother to research the consequences of systems of the past.
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Ah...guy who got the bare minimum PhD suggests retarded shit.
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Shaved rat vibe on lock.

Doesn't this eunuch look like that coomer guy if he decided to cut off his balls voluntarily.
 
Hey, fuck you cocksucker.

The 1850s was filled with lots of violence like John Brown decided to go on a rampage against slavers. And then staged an honest to god insurrection against the lolocrats in DC.
Don't forget Bleeding Kansas and the Sumner Cane Beating. We aren't the most divided we've ever been until Senators start getting beaten half to death for shittalking another Senator.
 
Film studios right now are doing something where they hire first time directors to make big blockbuster films. They advertise this as promoting new talent. What they're actually doing is giving these people massive projects that are way over their head, and giving them far less creative control over the project. Essentially making it so "director" just means the person who tells people where to point the camera. With the actual creative control in the hands of the executive producers and the people who run the studio.

That's essentially what would happen if you remove deciding who runs the country from the hands of the people. A group of bureaucrats find a way to rig the process so it always operates in their favor. You can't figure this out through simulations, a computer can't determine this would occur.

Something similar happened in professional baseball.

Baseball managers historically have been former players who are now crotchety seniors in their 60s and 70s. The successful ones stick around forever, get hired and fired cyclically with their team's success or lackthereof and in general were left alone to decide on-field strategy by gut and experience.

But about 10 years ago, ownership started parachuting completely inexperienced former players into these roles immediately after they retired so that they were barely older than the players they were coaching.

There's only 30 of these jobs in baseball, so there should insane competition for these jobs.

But the modern newly retired players are rich beyond belief. They don't want to pay their dues going down to the bottom of the minors to coach in some backwater, working their way up the chain until they qualify for one of the big league jobs. They want to start at the top or they would rather go home to be a playboy.

So former players with "good personalities" started being placed in these top jobs directly without any experience or credentials.

But it doesn't matter as much, because the job of baseball manager has also changed.

Twenty years after the IRL Oakland As team profiled in Brad Pitt's Moneyball won on a shoestring budget using analytics, there's no more competitive advantage because all 30 teams have statistics departments full of interns running data.

The old school field general barking orders at his players and making tactical decisions at key moments is dead.

Modern managers are now hired more for their abilities to use kid gloves to assuage prima donna young millionaires in the clubhouse and to implement ownership's tactical plan in-game that the nerds say is the best way to min/max the chance of winning on any given night.

The feared-but-respected leaders of old have been replaced by younger hand-picked nice guys and yes men.
 
Don't forget Bleeding Kansas and the Sumner Cane Beating. We aren't the most divided we've ever been until Senators start getting beaten half to death for shittalking another Senator.
I'd love to see something like Mitch McConnell knee Nancy Pelosi in the stomach then push her over and give her a solid stomping; instead of giggling and fist-bumping after passing shit legislation.
 
If you think that sounds anti-democratic, think again. The ancient Greeks invented democracy, and in Athens many government officials were selected through sortition — a random lottery from a pool of candidates.

You dont realy want to go down this way.
A) Athens were city state with tiny population by modern standards.
B) only citizens could vote and be elected . So no slaves, women, foreigners, or men who had residence in Athens,but did not have citizenship.
C) as others pointed out "lottery" was not random.
D) more of fun fact. Every year there was vote and every citizen could vote for every politician and if anyone got certain number of votes he would be kicked out of Athens and could not return for ten years
 
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