Dragon Ball Thread - RIP Akira Toriyama

  • Want to keep track of this thread?
    Accounts can bookmark posts, watch threads for updates, and jump back to where you stopped reading.
    Create account
SSj_Ness said:
I don't think it's too weird for Vegeta to wait for Goku.
Click to expand...
Its weird because he's impatient in all other appearances, and weird from a story telling angle because it deflates the tension. It's one degree more subtle than a floating neon sign that reads "WAIT FOR GOKU KIDS".
SSj_Ness said:
As for a midboss stomping several Z Fighters, that's exactly what Recoome did immediately afterwards. He was also a bigger, dumber underling too just like Nappa, now that I think about it. Dabura also, to a lesser extent since Kibito was one of his victims and was just a nobody.
Click to expand...
Recoome and Dabura weren't sold to the audience as being part of the final pair of villains, and aside from Kibito they didn't kill anyone. That's different from sidelining half the cast for a whole saga.
SSj_Ness said:
They pride themselves as warriors.
Click to expand...
Which makes it all the funnier that Vegeta spends each saga under the bad guy's boot; not a single arc passes where he doesn't get folded like laundry on account of doing something stupid. This has to be why Toyotaro pushed of Ultra Ego, just to get him out of Goku's orbit and from under the new guy's heel--jobbing to Granolah and walrus guy notwithstanding.
 
RX-78 said:
Its weird because he's impatient in all other appearances, and weird from a story telling angle because it deflates the tension. It's one degree more subtle than a floating neon sign that reads "WAIT FOR GOKU KIDS".
Click to expand...
It kinda depends, he doesn't always feel the need to jump right in himself. After chasing Android 20 when he ran from him, Vegeta hung back and honored Piccolo's request take him on instead of finishing him off himself. Sometimes he wants to make things more interesting on a whim, like letting Cell go absorb Android 18 to transform.

There's other times he showed patience but for more tactical reasons, like stopping the Z Fighters from rushing to go confront Frieza in his new Mecha form.

RX-78 said:
Recoome and Dabura weren't sold to the audience as being part of the final pair of villains, and aside from Kibito they didn't kill anyone. That's different from sidelining half the cast for a whole saga.
Click to expand...
Well, you specified about midbosses, not final villains. Recoome technically didn't kill anyone, but he broke Gohan's neck so he was essentially dead. Krillin and Vegeta weren't far behind, strictly speaking nobody died, but I'd say they "jobbed" to him. Same for Krillin and Piccolo, it's splitting hairs, they were basically dead too, and Dabura held a strong advantage over Gohan.

RX-78 said:
Which makes it all the funnier that Vegeta spends each saga under the bad guy's boot; not a single arc passes where he doesn't get folded like laundry on account of doing something stupid. This has to be why Toyotaro pushed of Ultra Ego, just to get him out of Goku's orbit and from under the new guy's heel--jobbing to Granolah and walrus guy notwithstanding.
Click to expand...
Pretty much, aside from the Golden Frieza arc, where they still felt the need to rob Vegeta. They don't know how to not make Goku the center of attention without literally benching him (which has been a problem since day 1). The closest they got to balancing his presence out was Cell or Zamasu, but he still played a pivotal role in the former.
 
Hey so,

Recently I've been watching DBZ again out of nostalgia (along with some of the original DB and might actually finish GT) but....

Random thing that bugs me is whenever I read up on what DB is like now (full disclosure I haven't watched or read Super except for the odd episode here or there, I've just managed to pick up bits and pieces from things like wiki articles and forum posts)..... for some reason I almost find modern DB depressing.

Maybe this is just me hating change, I dunno, but when I read something and I'm suddenly like "wait, there's time police now?" or other things that feel like its just gone a Marvel/DC route, I get kinda bummed out. Like apparently some media or other introduced this concept that all the animal-people you see in Dragonball were actually just the result of either drugs or surgery, and I'm like "..... what the fuck."

For how long the DB saga was, it was at least comprehensible and not really all that complicated. Has the lore really become that bloated now, or is having it all dumped on me at once because of the internet just making it seem that way?

Also, is Super worth watching? I've heard people say it is and some say it isn't (and then there's sub debates due to the first two arcs actually being adaptations of movies, manga vs anime where apparently the manga is very different in spots, and of course whether Super is better than GT)

........ (I give GT credit for a few things: the Japanese OP, that its still in that "nostalgic" era of Dragonball and wound up not being that long, and I love Pan).
 
spotted today at costco
1679857893043.png
 
skykiii said:
For how long the DB saga was, it was at least comprehensible and not really all that complicated. Has the lore really become that bloated now, or is having it all dumped on me at once because of the internet just making it seem that way?
Click to expand...
The latter. I've only watched the Super anime. Maybe the most convoluted part is the Black arc because of the time travel, but keep in mind DB time travel is more like traveling between alternate realities and not like BTTF.

skykiii said:
Also, is Super worth watching? I've heard people say it is and some say it isn't (and then there's sub debates due to the first two arcs actually being adaptations of movies, manga vs anime where apparently the manga is very different in spots, and of course whether Super is better than GT)
Click to expand...
It's more of a "having fun" show than the fighting epic DBZ was. Aside from the Black arc which is the darkest part of Super, the rest feels lighter and more relaxed even when there's a big challenge, I'd say there's a persistent slice of life-like way of storytelling. And honestly, I love it. I love seeing these guys I grew up with being their wacky themselves and not stressed out because the world's about to end for more than a couple episodes between each saga unlike DBZ, something I sorely missed since the original DB.
 
A fundamental problem I've always had with the idea of continuing Dragonball is.... Z ended in a good place, and IMO there really wasn't anywhere to go. I mean in the manga even Toriyama was realizing the thing had gotten silly--Buu Saga is actually my favorite part for a couple of reasons--introducing "cute design with resting bitch face" main girl Videl (paving the way for "2nd best thing about DBGT" Pan), but also, that saga essentially turns into a bit of a self-parody.

And I mean... Buu is an eldritch djinn from the dawn of time (according to the Viz manga translation anyway) who is literally beaten by the combined energy of the entire planet Earth in what also counts as Mr. Satan's shining moment... anything after that is gonna feel like a letdown.

I never got past the black star saga of GT in part because this aspect kept bothering me, combined with the ill-conceived idea of trying to homage the original DB's first arc.... the idea probably could've worked, but not the way they did it. I've heard that GT significantly picks up once the "Baby Saga" starts (a name that just makes me want Goku to somehow get involved in a Five Nights at Freddy's crossover).

Apparently Pan still pops up in a lot of video games and such, which I'm glad about--everything I hear about Super is that they basically are trying to pretend GT never happened, so I'm glad they didn't throw the baby (pun not intended) out with the bathwater.
 
GT will always be the weakest. But I kinda, sorta enjoy it like other people say...?

...yes, I'll await the :disagree: button
 
skykiii said:
I never got past the black star saga of GT in part because this aspect kept bothering me, combined with the ill-conceived idea of trying to homage the original DB's first arc.... the idea probably could've worked, but not the way they did it. I've heard that GT significantly picks up once the "Baby Saga" starts (a name that just makes me want Goku to somehow get involved in a Five Nights at Freddy's crossover).
Click to expand...
The Baby saga was pretty intense, since it involved Vegeta as well as all of Goku's friends and loved ones getting possessed by a parasitic machine creature and turning them all against him. Which led to some great scenes like this.
When you remember that Bulma was literally Goku's first friend and is basically like a sister to him, that cuts deep.
skykiii said:
Apparently Pan still pops up in a lot of video games and such, which I'm glad about--everything I hear about Super is that they basically are trying to pretend GT never happened, so I'm glad they didn't throw the baby (pun not intended) out with the bathwater.
Click to expand...
After the events of Super, I think they pretty much have to pretend GT never happened.

Moreover, I think after Super they're basically going to retcon the original ending of Z.
 
skykiii said:
Also, is Super worth watching? I've heard people say it is and some say it isn't (and then there's sub debates due to the first two arcs actually being adaptations of movies, manga vs anime where apparently the manga is very different in spots, and of course whether Super is better than GT)
Click to expand...
DBS works if you don't take it very seriously. They clearly don't really care about canon, so if you're a huge canon sperg, you're gonna have a bad time. I could probably say that about a lot of series, but at least with DB there's a pretty long history of non-canon content that's still enjoyable - almost none of the original movies were canon or even made much sense (the entire Fusion Reborn movie could only take place in the ~1 day period where Vegeta died during Majin Buu, and there was no reason for Goku to be in hell with him + was fighting Buu, they forget how to fusion dance 1 day later, etc) and all of GT isn't canon either. So I guess I'm used to it and don't take it as seriously as other shows. Toriyama clearly just does whatever he feels like and doesn't care.

Mild powerlevel, but I was a pretty big DBZ sperg in middle school and loved reading fanfic, and the characters in DBS are pretty spot-on with the common fanfic/fandom characterizations. Stuff like Vegeta secretly being a good dad and in love with Bulma, which was barely shown in Z but spawned 1000000 fanfics and is now core to his character. It's fanservice for people like me.

On the bad side, the show has a lot of negative fanfic tropes, like people suddenly having siblings that were never mentioned, which is pretty annoying but idk the show hasn't exactly had the most quality writing. I'm sure for people who grew up with Dragonball, the introduction of Z was a similar shock, with Goku suddenly being an alien and having a secret brother that was never mentioned, and the tone shift from comedy to gore, which people now dislike the reverse of. The galaxy police stuff does seem really forced and I kinda hate Jaco for it. I guess Toriyama had done some side series with Jaco and just expected everybody to know about him already?

Overall I would recommend DBS, with these suggestions:
-Watch Battle of Gods movie (the anime arc is just the movie but longer)
-Watch Resurrection F movie (Like BoG, the anime series is the same as the movie)
-Watch the Universe 6 vs Universe 7 arc (forget what it's actually called), it introduces new characters and it's where the show starts getting good.
-Skip the Saiyaman movie and Copy Vegeta filler arcs unless you like this kind of thing
-Watch the baseball filler episode though, it's hilarious
-Watch "Future" Trunks arc, this is where it starts getting really good.
-Watch Universal Survival Arc, which I contend is the best arc in the entire DB/Z/S series. Probably a controversial opinion but most would at least agree it's very good.
-Watch the new Broly movie

skykiii said:
Apparently Pan still pops up in a lot of video games and such, which I'm glad about--everything I hear about Super is that they basically are trying to pretend GT never happened, so I'm glad they didn't throw the baby (pun not intended) out with the bathwater.
Click to expand...
I think Toriyama came up with her design and some of the characterization for GT, so new Pan will certainly have some similarities to GT Pan. Toddler Pan was prominent in the Super Hero movie and appears as a fetus/baby throughout Super.
 
Last edited:
So, last week I just decided to watch the Super hero movie. I've been out of the loop on dragon ball so long, the last thing I watched was the frieza resurrection movie when it was new. While I found myself being entertained and it was cool to see a movie with just piccolo and gohan, at the end it just felt kinda ......pointless? Like ok Dr Gero has a grandson, but just makes another cell. Piccolo and Gohan get new forms, but will they use them ever again after this? I'dunno something about it just doesn't sit right, though this could be whiplash since I haven't kept up with super that much.
 
Spit bucket said:
So, last week I just decided to watch the Super hero movie. I've been out of the loop on dragon ball so long, the last thing I watched was the frieza resurrection movie when it was new. While I found myself being entertained and it was cool to see a movie with just piccolo and gohan, at the end it just felt kinda ......pointless? Like ok Dr Gero has a grandson, but just makes another cell. Piccolo and Gohan get new forms, but will they use them ever again after this? I'dunno something about it just doesn't sit right, though this could be whiplash since I haven't kept up with super that much.
Click to expand...
I thought it was off too. I felt that Gohan's transformation was really unearned, esp. when you contrast it with his SSJ2 transformation... Piccolo's kind of was too. He never thought to wish for something like that before?

Maybe it was too many transformations crammed into the movie for me. They should get <1 new one per movie.
 
Spit bucket said:
So, last week I just decided to watch the Super hero movie. I've been out of the loop on dragon ball so long, the last thing I watched was the frieza resurrection movie when it was new. While I found myself being entertained and it was cool to see a movie with just piccolo and gohan, at the end it just felt kinda ......pointless? Like ok Dr Gero has a grandson, but just makes another cell. Piccolo and Gohan get new forms, but will they use them ever again after this? I'dunno something about it just doesn't sit right, though this could be whiplash since I haven't kept up with super that much.
Click to expand...
melty said:
I thought it was off too. I felt that Gohan's transformation was really unearned, esp. when you contrast it with his SSJ2 transformation... Piccolo's kind of was too. He never thought to wish for something like that before?

Maybe it was too many transformations crammed into the movie for me. They should get <1 new one per movie.
Click to expand...
Piccolo wished for his transformation because he already pushed himself to the limit and there really wasn't any point to train anymore, unlike Gohan who completely slacked off but was still able to block Piccolo's punch when he told him to get his shit together and stop being such a workaholic. And as much as I liked seeing the duo get some love, you can't just asspull a transformation at the last few minutes. Show, don't tell! We could've gotten a montage of Piccolo and even Pan showing Gohan some pointers (and what she learned) and him practicing the Makankousappou instead of so much unnecessary RR backstory.

Edited for clarity
 
Last edited:
If we're going to talk about canon and contradiction, it should be stated that it has never meant much to Toriyama, that especially goes for when he was writing the manga. To understand Dragon Ball's writing, you have to understand Toriyama and his overall work and not just DB. His main talents are in improvisation, imagination, gag humor, character design, and choreography. But he's not known for long term story planning nor is he senile (a great misnomer insult from fans want to find a reason why he's "changed"). Things just happened and usually they happened because Toriyama felt like it and they were convenient.
Good example of this is the entire idea of the Super Saiyan's hair color was designed around the idea of Toriyama's assistant not having to ink Goku's hair constantly.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/seg-story-volume-truth-about-dragon-ball/
I decided on the design for the Super Saiyan for, to be honest… a simple reason that will leave you saying “What?”. I always have only a single person, Assistant-kun3, helping me with my work. That Assistant-kun’s time was always taken up doing the black fill4 of Goku’s hair, so the biggest reason was in order to save time. Because when he became a Super Saiyan, we wouldn’t have to do the black fill. It also had the effect of making it easy to tell from his appearance that Goku had gotten stronger, so it killed two birds with one stone. Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.
Click to expand...
Or Saiyan tails:
Did the tail get in the way of the fighting?
No, it’s just that I’m always thinking about how things are supposed to work, so it was a real pain to figure out how he’d put his pants on or stuff like that. That’s what always bugged me most. Is there a hole in the pants? Does he put his tail through first, then put the pants on? So that made me want to just get rid of the darn thing… which I did, in the end. (laughs)
Click to expand...
And an example of retcon back at the zenith of Dragon Ball (Freeza Arc) within just a year. In first panel, Goku's training is effected by him inflicting self injuries while training (two panels prior he launches kamehameha's at himself and has to take a senzu bean to recover) and the narrator states how he's improving so fast. Next panel is Vegeta stating self inflicted injuries can't achieve increases in strength. And I believe Toei never mentioned the first part in the anime regarding the zenkais Goku achieved in the gravity chamber because of that, I could be mistaken though.
Feb 1990

1679249062348.png

Dec 1990

1679414596789.png


The best way to deal with Dragon Ball's universe (this goes for Super) is to just not think too hard about it. I get fans want to make some type of sense over it, but it's always been in vain and for people to get upset at Super because it goes against Pedro or Joses headcanon, toei filler or some dub isn't worth it. Just enjoy strong dudes beating up other strong dudes, simple as.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom