Dragon Age: The Veilguard - A woke disaster? Yep!

[Mola Ram]

So I guess its just weird to me that the final villains in this franchise are the indigenous people's gods, who are actually evil, control the blight, and dream raped the dwarves. Does that not feel weird to anyone else?

No, it feels incredibly subversive, and it really chapped the asses of a lot of BioWare tumblrites when Inquisition revealed that the elven gods were both real and total shitheads. This is one of the few things I actually admire about the game, but it was baked into the cake to such an extent there was no way to really get rid of it. In fact, they seem to have backed off from the larger implications of such a thing by not having hordes of elves supporting their terrible, terrible gods as payback for centuries of oppression, probably because it would prove that the oppression was, in fact, warranted. #NotAllElves

 

[BlankSpaceBaby]

@Heckler1

It's Rook. Rook is absolute dogshit. Rook makes the Ryder siblings from Andromeda seem like Scorsese characters. Rook is a smiling, empty husk who might as well be a potato with a sword. Rook keeps on talking about "da team" like a Steven Universe character, and time and time again says they have "no plan" and the game rewards them despite Rook having the survival instincts of moth trying to fuck a bug zapper. It makes zero sense how many character keep trying to kiss your ass about how great you are when your only dialogue choices are " agreeable niceness, joke with zero social awareness, or Asperger's". Rook feels empty, and the more you play the more it sets in that you are piloting a point of view, not a character. The Inquisitor wasn't great either, but at least the anchor gave them a reason why they were in charge. Rook is jus some dude with no connections or backstory who exists to say things to progress cutscenes. Rook is a massive letdown, which is impressive as the bar for Bioware MC's isn't that high.

One theory floated around the disenchanted stans circuit that I find very plausible is that Trixy Weeksy and others in charge of the overall story view the companions as their own stand-ins and emotional crutches. The companions are the stars of the show, and you, as Rook, exists to do all the heavy lifting (fighting, running, following orders) while the companions preen and make everything about them (which they do, of course).

There is certainly a noticeable shift, as the Warden, Hawke, and Inquisitor are clearly the stars of their own games with the companions orbiting about these characters. In this game, however, even before the bloody thing was released, all we heard about was how awesome the companions are, what their issues and preferred pronouns are, their job, what went into the design of these characters, etc...

Rook is just an afterthought. You can make them a tranny, you can make them look like Weekes and his parade of terminally online Bluesky-forever friends, and that's about it. If Rook dies, there's no doubt that the companions will continue to hold book clubs and shopping trips without missing Rook one bit.

 

[Mola Ram]

One theory floated around the disenchanted stans circuit that I find very plausible is that Trixy Weeksy and others in charge of the overall story view the companions as their own stand-ins and emotional crutches. The companions are the stars of the show, and you, as Rook, exists to do all the heavy lifting (fighting, running, following orders) while the companions preen and make everything about them (which they do, of course).

This is, of course, one of the hallmarks of a terrible GM in a tabletop game.

 

[SmokelessFire]

One theory floated around the disenchanted stans circuit that I find very plausible is that Trixy Weeksy and others in charge of the overall story view the companions as their own stand-ins and emotional crutches. The companions are the stars of the show, and you, as Rook, exists to do all the heavy lifting (fighting, running, following orders) while the companions preen and make everything about them (which they do, of course).

When Isabele showed up this is what I immediately thought as well. Isabela's normal wear made her look to much like the Neve lady, but because Neve and the entire rest of the cast are muh oh sees donut steel it was Isabele who had to have a costume change. A ridiculous one that really underscores Veilgaurd's alien aesthetic to the rest of the series. In fact the entire female cast has the white deep cut french shirt with some accompaniments.

 

[Heckler1]

No, it feels incredibly subversive, and it really chapped the asses of a lot of BioWare tumblrites when Inquisition revealed that the elven gods were both real and total shitheads. This is one of the few things I actually admire about the game, but it was baked into the cake to such an extent there was no way to really get rid of it. In fact, they seem to have backed off from the larger implications of such a thing by not having hordes of elves supporting their terrible, terrible gods as payback for centuries of oppression, probably because it would prove that the oppression was, in fact, warranted. #NotAllElves

Just because something is subversive doesn't make it good. Any kudos I would give them for daring to be subversive is immediately evaporated by the fact it doesn't actually work. In general I think Inquisition is another alright game, but you can see the beginnings of the bad choices made in Veilguard in it. I think choosing the elven deities as the next big bad instead of the Quanari invasion, which had been teased for 2 games at that point, was a huge letdown. I think one they decided Solas was aktually a spirit furry god the series was "cooked" as the kids say.

 

[BScCollateral]

One theory floated around the disenchanted stans circuit that I find very plausible is that Trixy Weeksy and others in charge of the overall story view the companions as their own stand-ins and emotional crutches. The companions are the stars of the show, and you, as Rook, exists to do all the heavy lifting (fighting, running, following orders) while the companions preen and make everything about them (which they do, of course).

I suspect a limitation in CRPGs. A programmer can control an NPC's personality and interactions with others, but not the protagonist. The protagonist needs interpersonal drama but the programmers don't know the protagonist's personality.

 

[Mola Ram]

Just because something is subversive doesn't make it good.

Thank you for this searing insight. My point was not quality; I simply admire the commitment to the established storyline so far as they did commit to it, because attributing any wrongdoing to the oppressed elf woobies is downright shocking coming from a writing crew so politically correct or woke or brainrotted or whatever euphemism you prefer that they created a thieves' guild that swore off stealing cultural treasures. If you never read any of the screeching tumblr posts that gnashed their teeth about the elven gods being evil, you should check them out. It's exactly the demographic Veilguard's team was catering to. That being said ...

Any kudos I would give them for daring to be subversive is immediately evaporated by the fact it doesn't actually work. In general I think Inquisition is another alright game, but you can see the beginnings of the bad choices made in Veilguard in it. I think choosing the elven deities as the next big bad instead of the Quanari invasion, which had been teased for 2 games at that point, was a huge letdown. I think one they decided Solas was aktually a spirit furry god the series was "cooked" as the kids say.

... the game is still a piece of shit, and while I don't agree that switching gears to the elven gods was the kiss of death (there really are vague hints that this would be the case going all the way back to the Dalish Elf origin), execution is all that matters. For instance, I think you could have had the qunari invasion and the return of the elven gods in the same story, perhaps the latter manipulating the former. In fact, the mass defection of the antaam to Elgar'nan sounds like this very thing was attempted, but in such a contrived, ridiculous way there's no way to buy into it.

 

[Heckler1]

Thank you for this searing insight. My point was not quality; I simply admire the commitment to the established storyline so far as they did commit to it, because attributing any wrongdoing to the oppressed elf woobies is downright shocking coming from a writing crew so politically correct or woke or brainrotted or whatever euphemism you prefer that they created a thieves' guild that swore off stealing cultural treasures. If you never read any of the screeching tumblr posts that gnashed their teeth about the elven gods being evil, you should check them out. It's exactly the demographic Veilguard's team was catering to. That being said ...



... the game is still a piece of shit, and while I don't agree that switching gears to the elven gods was the kiss of death (there really are vague hints that this would be the case going all the way back to the Dalish Elf origin), execution is all that matters. For instance, I think you could have had the qunari invasion and the return of the elven gods in the same story, perhaps the latter manipulating the former. In fact, the mass defection of the antaam to Elgar'nan sounds like this very thing was attempted, but in such a contrived, ridiculous way there's no way to buy into it.

I don't really follow what online communities think about games, but anything that makes tumblr upset is usually pretty funny.

I think part of why Elg ad Ghil are so underwhelming is we just did Coryphyus as a villain in DA3, and they are basically a less effective version of him. Which to be fair, is most of the cotent in DA4. I think if you were going to do some sort of Elvish angry god, then I would have made DA3 all about the Mage rebellion and Quanari invasion as a sort of Thedas world war. Then at some point you show that the <insert elvish god> has been manipulating events since DA2 for whatever reason you decide on.

 

[BlankSpaceBaby]

Either Weekes and Busche really set out to create something contrived to be as inoffensive as possible or it was mandated upon them by sensitivity consultants. (Judging from their Bluesky antics, it's likely to be due to both.)

Because of this, no matter what is in the plot, it just won't work, because you can't just ignore or file off the problematic edges on subjects such as war, genocide, racism, slavery, tyranny, et cetera.

Had this been the mandate, to make the game as unproblematic as possible, they should have adjusted and created a plot that is as unproblematic as possible: Rook starting out as a floor mopper in that bar, for example, and one upscales his skills and abilities until he gets promoted to barkeep and the game ends with Lace and Varric approaching him with a splendid offer.

What? That's as unproblematic as it can get, right? It will also be right up Busche's feminine chocolate alley, as her biggest career milestone prior to Dragon Age: The Veilguard was working on The Sims.

 

[Janusz z Gliwic]

I've decided to replay DAO since I never finished it as most origins, and never played on nightmare.

I'm dozen hours in, and it's incredible how well this game (dragon) aged. Apart from low poly environmental models here or there and some low resolution textures, graphics hold up well, gameplay is smooth and enjoyable and writing is top notch.

I'm playing on Linux, and with some tinkering in Steam and Proton settings I managed to install mods using the updater, and game itself runs well, I got only few crashes over all these hours. Though I'm yet to play Return to Ostagar.

Even though I already played through DAO several times in the past, it still caught me off guard how the world is built, and all the dark topics the story is not afraid to touch. Hatred, opression, sexual assault, discrimination, racism, ambition, Machiavellian politics, it's all there, and yet all handled with grace and restraint. It makes it much sadder how horrible later releases were, and how much Thedas as a setting regressed.

 

[BlankSpaceBaby]

Since the thread has died down, let me rant about how much I despise the Iron Bull. Aside from his sagging manboobs and unappealing face, let me list the ways:

1. Douchebag is clearly a self-insert (Weekes, likely, as at that time he was still identifying as male but was getting into his furry horn man phase), as everyone has heard of the Qunari sacking Kirkwall by the time the game happens. It is a contradiction and paradox as to how the Iron Bull is so well received and even lusted after by the people in that game.
2. Cullen, who was there during the sacking of Kirkwall, was like LOLsocute amirite when they caught you being ass-busted by the Bull. Same with Cassandra. They should be ten times more dramatic than Mother Giselle clucking her head off should the Inquisitor start hooking up with Dorien.
3. Don't get me started about Dorien and the Iron Bull. Dorien is so dogged about reforming Tevinter and he has political goals in that nation, and he has no issues about sleeping with a Qunari spy? That's like the future Prime Minister of India is fucking a well-known Pakistani spy - it's a huge political mess waiting to happen. Oh, and the whole relationship appears to operate under Dorien needing to get sodding drunk first each time he parted his cheeks for the Bull, which has some unfortunate implications but at the same time passed off as cute and sweet.
4. Perhaps this is necessity due to gameplay, but Bull is given way too much freedom and leeway to roam around. His hangout in Skyhold is in a drinking hole, a place where he can gather all the intel he wants by talking and fucking the locals that, for some reason, forgot that the Qunari invasion is a real threat. Seriously? Unless Leliana is playing 6D chess by having people going to the pub and feeding Bull wrong info, this is just the Inquisition asking for trouble and then doing a shocked Pikachu face should the Bull betray them in Trespasser.
5. "I'm a spy!" "I know, LOL, now fuck me!" Ugh.

Sten was a refugee Qunari clearly estranged from his people, and he was treated with a hundred times more suspicion and caution than the Bull who openly tells the Inquisitor that he is a spy, and this is after the sacking of Kirkwall. Unbelievable.

Oh, and he drags in Krem, which is the start of the end of Dragon Age and the dawning of Tranny Age. I didn't mind Krem THAT much back then, but in hindsight, Krem can burn in hell.

 

[Mola Ram]

I actually sort of liked Iron Bull and now this entire post is making me rethink it. A decent voice actor and witty banter overcome a lot of problems, but ... these are pretty profound.

That said, I'll point out something that always bugged me:

That's like the future Prime Minister of India is fucking a well-known Pakistani spy - it's a huge political mess waiting to happen.

Dorian/Iron Bull is questionable at best for all the reasons you bring up, but it's nowhere as bad as the Inquisitor screwing around with him. The Inquisitor is this weird mix of prophet, second coming of Andraste, and religious/political leader in their own right, maybe the equivalent of an antipope ... all of these being highly controversial and with powerful enemies ready to leap at the slightest misstep (they didn't all die in the conclave, and in fact I'd bet some rivals outside the Chantry power structure gained significant influence in the wake of competitors getting killed). How on earth does the Inquisition not collapse once word gets out the Chosen of Andraste is getting ploughed on the regular by a non-human infidel from a power that's already converted thousands of Andrastians to a pagan faith?

Inquisition treated politics and religion more skillfully than I'd expect from later BioWare, but this is nonsense on stilts, all so the player can have imaginary sex with whatever character they please (unless you're a straight male human, of course; fuck your options, cis shitlord!). A sad harbinger of what was going to come with Veilguard.

 

[Prophetic Spirit]

Leliana is still the best.
If you romance her, she'll always talk about the hero of ferelden in subsequent games, dead or not.

 

[LazyLizard]

i really just hate how Ironbull is a party gym bro, our entire exposure to Qunari is them being super strict not even understanding how human societies function yet here comes dude bro "whassap my inquisitor bro, i'm a spy, lets be bros" fuck that, give me back the cool cultish qunari not this gay modern day stand in.

 

[Mola Ram]

i really just hate how Ironbull is a party gym bro, our entire exposure to Qunari is them being super strict not even understanding how human societies function yet here comes dude bro "whassap my inquisitor bro, i'm a spy, lets be bros" fuck that, give me back the cool cultish qunari not this gay modern day stand in.

I'm guessing writing the qunari as presented in DAO and DA2 is extremely difficult, and undoubtedly rubs soft genderless blobs like Trick Weekes the wrong way, and so they decided do a "funny" subversion of their own fucking invention before it had even been thoroughly explored.

 

[BlankSpaceBaby]

Inquisition treated politics and religion more skillfully than I'd expect from later BioWare, but this is nonsense on stilts, all so the player can have imaginary sex with whatever character they please (unless you're a straight male human, of course; fuck your options, cis shitlord!). A sad harbinger of what was going to come with Veilguard.

Speaking of which, I will always face palm at how the entire arc in the Empress's court in Orlais, which should have been a great chance to roleplay via conversations and intrigue, is reduced to a dumb race against time treasure hunt and eavesdropping session, with a guide needed to get the so-called best outcome of Celine and Briala reuniting (even if their relationship was super toxic) unless one wants to replay the game over and over.

 

[Peaches the Wonder Cat]

Speaking of which, I will always face palm at how the entire arc in the Empress's court in Orlais, which should have been a great chance to roleplay via conversations and intrigue, is reduced to a dumb race against time treasure hunt and eavesdropping session, with a guide needed to get the so-called best outcome of Celine and Briala reuniting (even if their relationship was super toxic) unless one wants to replay the game over and over.

I mostly agree except the best outcome is Gaspard making Orlais great again.

 

[BlankSpaceBaby]

Absolutely. Orlais needs someone militant in a time when everything is fucked and monsters are attacking everyone. Celine and Briala would only scissor before actually trying to stab a pair scissors into each other's back.

However, you need to get a number of those Halla or whatever things with the help of a guide if you don't want to replay to trial and error, so I guess Gaider and Friends believe that Lezzy Love Forever is the "best" secret outcome.

 

[Mola Ram]

Speaking of which, I will always face palm at how the entire arc in the Empress's court in Orlais, which should have been a great chance to roleplay via conversations and intrigue, is reduced to a dumb race against time treasure hunt and eavesdropping session, with a guide needed to get the so-called best outcome of Celine and Briala reuniting (even if their relationship was super toxic) unless one wants to replay the game over and over.

Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts has chapped my ass for years, with the caveat that I did like the Court Approval element (it was super easy to manipulate provided you understood Orlesian social customs, like arriving "fashionably late"):

Best non-DLC mission in the game, with two glaring flaws. Really, one of the best quests in any Dragon Age game, with two glaring flaws.

What's good about it? It's a great display of intrigue, sneakiness, navigating the cutthroat social scene of the Orlesian nobility (which has been mentioned since the first game but never explored so thoroughly), and it uses the unique "Court Approval" stat in a way that acts as both a timer and a measure of how well you've managed to work your way into the court's good graces. Best of all, there's something like four vastly different ways for it to play out, all of which allow the player to decide who will rule one of the most powerful nations in the world.

The flaws? Well, for one thing the whole War of the Lions is barely present in the game despite being a hugely important part of it. If you want to understand who Gaspard is, who Briala is, and why everyone is fighting, you need to have read the tie-in fiction. There are quite a few elements of DAI that suffer from this problem.

The other flaw is much worse. Despite all the interesting mechanics and generally roleplaying-centered aspect of the quest, which endings are available to you depend entirely on how many stone halla figurines you've managed to find. This otherwise brilliant quest ... turns out, mechanically, to be a scavenger hunt. Not only that, but if you spend the statues on the wrong doors, you won't even have all the endings available to you. There's nothing in the quest to give the faintest hint that this is the case.

A wonderful, intriguing quest totally undercut by a numbfuck mechanic that never should have made it into the final product. In a way, it's a perfect cameo for Inquisition as a whole.

 

[Waifuchu]

so I guess Gaider and Friends believe that Lezzy Love Forever is the "best" secret outcome.

Of course they do, it's gay and interracial!


It's been quite a while since I played any of these games, and I doubt I'll return to them, but out of curiosity, has this series had any villains who were gay and/or brown, other than Branka in Origins, and Fenris' rapist master in 2?