Destiny 2 - Place your bets on how many $40 DLC packs we'll get this time.

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Bungie offers a new video called Infiltrating The Lawless Frontier to show off Destiny 2: Renegades, the upcoming expansion for the game described as "Star Wars-inspired," which is an odd way to describe an officially licensed crossover. Further, Destiny 2 is set in our solar system in the 28th century, which doesn't really connect very well to a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, but whatevs.

Anyway, Renegades will launch on December 2nd, but it seems the players won't have to wait that long for changes to the multiplayer action game, as this post announces the release of Ash & Iron, "the first Major Update for Destiny 2: The Edge of Fate." Word is: "Ash & Iron brings Guardians back to the Plaguelands for the first time since the original Destiny to investigate Maya Sundaresh’s experiments. Players will earn exciting new rewards by battling through Reclaim, a new three-player Fireteam Ops activity where Guardians hunt for Golden Age tech and complete evolving objectives against Vex and Cabal forces in a race against time." Here's more on Renegades:
During today’s livestream, a newly released ViDoc “Infiltrating the Lawless Frontier” showcased new content arriving with Renegades. Highlights include the new Lawless Frontier game mode, new characters, and a new social hub, Tharsis Outpost. Players will unlock upgradeable Renegade abilities unique to Lawless Frontier, earn new weapons and gear, and build reputation with shady Syndicate factions through the Notoriety system to expand their arsenal. Renegades also introduces a new weapon archetype, the Blaster, inspired by Star Wars and built for Destiny 2. These energy-based weapons draw ammo directly from your reserves and feature a unique heat management system.

In the Lawless Frontier, Guardians will take on high-risk, high-reward jobs to complete contracts – smuggling, bounty hunting, and sabotage – either solo or with a fireteam. These missions span three planets and six maps inspired by iconic Star Wars locations. One feature, Invasion, allows players to opt in for additional challenges and rewards by enabling other Guardians to invade the battlefield. This introduces a layer of strategic unpredictability, where greater risk yields greater rewards.
 
From unstoppable lovecraftian robot force to heckin quirkchungus redditbots being controlled by an indian lesbian.
Ever since they mentioned how Pajeeta captured her faction of Vex by giving them free will instead of taking it away, I was excited because I thought they were FINALLY gonna do something new with the Vex besides just having them be The Borg But Gay. But of course Bungie overdelivered and found a way to make them even gayer
 
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Ever since they mentioned how Pajeeta captured her faction of Vex by giving them free will instead of taking it away, I was excited because I thought they were FINALLY gonna do something new with the Vex besides just having them be The Borg But Gay. But of course Bungie overdelivered and found a way to make them even gayer
It's not like the vidoc presentation really does them any favors because of how canned and corporate it feels, where it just sounds like they're trying way too hard to hype people up, to the extent that it feels fake. "hurr durr they wear clothes and do crimes," just stop, you sound retarded.

That said, it sounds a little more interesting than described, since this is a faction that split off from Maya's Vex precisely because they were given free will. Why they decided to hop straight into a life of crime is beyond me, but there's a (slim) chance it could be written well if they do a decent job of exploring the whole "what happens when members of a hive mind get free will" angle, a la the instances in Star Trek like Seven of Nine or Hugh. Honestly, doing anything interesting with the Vex would be fine at this point; I hate that they're so underutilized, but they have yet to find some way of using them that isn't just "oh no spooky robots."

As for the rest, I noted there was very much a lack of explorable destinations mentioned. Yeah, the new activities take place across Venus, Mars, and Europa, but they did not explicitly state you could go around and explore these destinations in free roam, which leads me to believe that this will be the first expansion without one (I guess you could argue The Dark Below and House of Wolves didn't either, but that was the Destiny of a decade ago so expectations were different then). As someone who loves to just go around and wander the various worlds from time to time, that's a major bummer. They're obviously leaning really heavily into the Star Wars shit with a Destiny twist, which works better than I expected, but this whole Cabal superweapon (cough cough not-a-Death-Star) feels like a retread of the Almighty.

I just don't know if it's enough, especially when they say they're addressing feedback but doing nothing about how the only gameplay loop is to grind and grind for months until they finally let you get access to the better loot. But on the other hand, they're also making it a little better by letting you upgrade weapons all the way to T5 (presumably for a huge cost) and smoothing out the grind somewhat, as well as reverting nerfs that they'd initially planned, only emphasizing extreme outliers. But still, complete radio silence from Tyson on everything, so he's clearly unwilling to accept that his baby is fundamentally flawed and refuses to take the blame for it.

And the new update is laughably bad. Reclaim just teleports you around to different Plaguelands zones where you do a few objectives before moving on, and if you're matchmaking you get no chance to breathe and explore (guess I'll have to go back later solo; this game sure does incentivize group play!). You don't even get to ride from one zone to the next, it's just teleporting. But hey, at least they explicitly stated there's no SIVA anymore, so now people can stop bitching at them about it! Also a bunch of reskinned weapons and armor, so have fun grinding the same shit again but with a different paint job. Also the power progression is bugged again and there's a bunch of accidental copy-pastes with lore tabs (they gave Graviton Spike the Agape lore and copied the same ship twice). But hey, they still managed to pump out a bunch of Eververse cosmetics again! Enjoy spending twenty bucks for an actual Taken shader and armor set (for one character)! (ETA: I was mistaken, the shader is in a different bundle, so enjoy spending $15 for each armor set and $20 if you want the shader/skimmer/finisher bundle! Christ.)

I've already been playing less and less over the last few weeks, and I don't see that trend changing. Somehow, one release was enough to fuck up the game so badly that I barely want to pick it up anymore.

Also ETA: I know this is a long-running criticism, but it's honestly ridiculous how much time and effort go into making sure Eververse is chock full of things to buy every season, instead of putting even a fraction of that output into stuff that can be earned in-game. They put out armor sets inspired by Greek warriors earlier this season that would have been excellent Crucible armor sets, and then this week they come out with medieval armor sets that would work perfectly for Iron Banner. What do we get instead? Boring and drab armor in the Crucible lazily recolored for the second half of the season, and a recolor of an Iron Banner armor set from season 3. Would it have killed you to have a couple fewer sets to sell, Bungo?

That's one of my biggest issues with the game, especially as it stands currently: there is way too little to actually chase in the game proper. I think back to my time playing WoW, and how there were countless pets, mounts, transmogs (unlocked for free when you got the item!), and toys to hunt down, not to mention old legendary weapons to go back and acquire. If you were done with your progression for the week, there was always something for you to go out and look for. Destiny has practically nothing beyond grinding weapon rolls, which stops being fun pretty quickly. In fact, one of the few cosmetic chases is in fucking Trials, and have fun subjecting yourself to that slogfest in the vain hopes of getting even one item to drop.

Seriously, a halfway competent studio could have done wonders with this series. Destiny seems to have thrived in spite of Bungie, not because of them, and it's never been more apparent than it is now.
 
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Population has already crashed to what it was just before the update.

This game is toast.
 
It's very hard for me not to grave dance or bring the thread down with me giving shit to people who still play Destiny. I get it, we all have that series that Stockholm syndromes us. I got out when Content Vault was mentioned, and everything I hear about the game makes me glad I did.

That being said, how do you look at the Star Wars sloptent with any hope? It looks very mid at best, and Bungo is so weak-willed and uninspired that they can't make anything new unless it's a collaboration with another equally uninspired studio?

I will agree with King Dead's post though, a halfway competent studio could do wonders with an IP like Destiny. It's like insanely easy to do good. It's had sparks and moments or reaching or at least coming very close to reaching its potential and then Bungo bungs it up.
 
It's very hard for me not to grave dance or bring the thread down with me giving shit to people who still play Destiny. I get it, we all have that series that Stockholm syndromes us. I got out when Content Vault was mentioned, and everything I hear about the game makes me glad I did.

That being said, how do you look at the Star Wars sloptent with any hope? It looks very mid at best, and Bungo is so weak-willed and uninspired that they can't make anything new unless it's a collaboration with another equally uninspired studio?

I will agree with King Dead's post though, a halfway competent studio could do wonders with an IP like Destiny. It's like insanely easy to do good. It's had sparks and moments or reaching or at least coming very close to reaching its potential and then Bungo bungs it up.
I mean, NetEase has basically proven that by managing to deliver things that Bungie still has yet to even bother to do, like clan housing and bringing back fucking Sparrow Racing. I'm not saying that would fix the many problems the game currently has, but like Datto pointed out in his latest video, the lack of features like these makes what should feel like its own expansive world full of things to explore into nothing more than a game (worse, it just feels like a series of menus right now). It shows that Destiny could be so much more if they stopped focusing so damn hard on appealing to only the people who want to no-life grind no matter what, and they're quickly learning that that number is a lot less than they thought.

For me, it's always been the potential of the series that has kept me at it, despite the ups and downs. The initial teasers all the way back in 2013 utterly mesmerized me with scenes of post-apocalyptic worlds across our solar system, wondering what happened to cause us to fall so hard. Throw in space magic and the gunplay of Halo, and I was sold. It has a unique universe that isn't exactly like anything else out there, and the potential of what you can do with that kind of sandbox has always hooked me into continuing to play over a decade later.

But it's like you said, somehow, inevitably, Bungie fumbles again and again. They do things people like, player sentiment rises, things seem to be going good, then out of left field is some retarded decision that throws everyone for a curve (double primaries! content vault! whatever the fuck Nimbus is!). Thing is, the issues are usually not so severe as to make most players give up entirely. Part of being a longtime fan is being willing to wait and see, figuring that they'll take feedback to heart, admit they fucked up, and start making things better again.

This time, though, feels a lot worse because of how severely they've managed to gut the game to shove in their new loot tier/Portal systems instead. They've made the overwhelming majority of the game entirely irrelevant by forcing everyone into the small selection of Portal activities, nearly all of which are just repeats of things we've done countless times already. High-tier loot doesn't drop from pinnacle activities, it drops from literally anything provided you put in a couple hundred hours of boring, slogging grind first. Level is irrelevant outside of a timegate since you have to keep raising the difficulty on your activities in order to ensure you're still getting good loot, and once you outlevel something too much you're getting nothing worthwhile anymore, so you're constantly having to play at peak performance and can't just chill out.

Normally, after a big fuckup on Bungie's part, we'd have had a message from the game director addressing the community directly and talking about where they messed up and how they're going to fix it. Not only has that not happened (Tyson you coward get out here), but I honestly don't know if there even is a way to fix it. Yeah, they mentioned improvements they're planning on doing, but those seem to be merely bandaid solutions. The Portal is a soulless, lifeless replacement for the Director and tiered loot is making the game complicated for no reason, but they're now so woven into the game that pulling them out again might take even more work than the initial development. Not to mention, nobody ever wants to admit they fucked up this badly, so there's a lot of sunk cost fallacy at play here.

I'm just tired of the constant backsliding every time things get just a little bit better. I want Destiny to actually live up to its potential instead of Bungie shooting themselves in the foot every few months.
 
I'm just tired of the constant backsliding every time things get just a little bit better. I want Destiny to actually live up to its potential instead of Bungie shooting themselves in the foot every few months.
When Destiny is even close to living up to its potential it can be great. I was there for Taken King and Forsaken, plus I'd argue the season of the Undying was actually pretty solid. It's just they keep fumbling after those and continuing to build up instead of taking things away.

The world always ends up feeling empty. It doesn't feel like a universe, and every direction Bungie has taken recently just makes it more and more empty.
 
When Destiny is even close to living up to its potential it can be great. I was there for Taken King and Forsaken, plus I'd argue the season of the Undying was actually pretty solid. It's just they keep fumbling after those and continuing to build up instead of taking things away.

The world always ends up feeling empty. It doesn't feel like a universe, and every direction Bungie has taken recently just makes it more and more empty.
Maybe it's Stockholm syndrome, but it's those moments that do keep me coming back, knowing that the game can be good, great even. Moment-to-moment gameplay continues to be great, and well-designed activities (especially dungeons and raids) showcase the devs' talents. Plus the visuals, sound design, and music have always been stellar.

It's just all these stupid boneheaded decisions that keep on weighing like millstones around the game's neck. They made the game free-to-play and gave away the first year's content and a bunch of the second year's, only to throw it all in the bin a year later. They invest countless man-hours into creating seasonal content that gets removed shortly afterward, leaving huge gaps in the game's story for newcomers. Sunsetting gear made all the investment you'd made thus far pointless and ensured any future effort would also eventually be rendered pointless; the backlash was so severe that they walked it all back by the time of The Final Shape and actually un-sunset all your gear...only to then effectively re-sunset everything with the New Gear bonuses in this expansion, ensuring that once again your gear has an effective expiration date. Just as before, yeah, you can use the old stuff still, but you're gimping your ability to progress at a remotely reasonable rate.

And to top it off, remember how I was complaining about how some of the latest Eververse sets would have worked better as in-game rewards instead of the lazy reskins we keep getting? Ha, yeah, turns out I was right. Concept art for one of the Gladius sets released a few months ago was posted to Artstation, and you can clearly see an Iron Banner emblem in the middle of the chest, that presumably would have ignited during the Hunt like some previous sets have. The in-game version had the emblem scrubbed. This basically confirms reports that management is deliberately forcing the art team to stop making anything that you can actually earn in-game look cool so as to encourage people to spend more money on Eververse instead.
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As if Bungo needed even more bad PR at the moment. Fucking hell.
 
Maybe it's Stockholm syndrome, but it's those moments that do keep me coming back, knowing that the game can be good, great even. Moment-to-moment gameplay continues to be great, and well-designed activities (especially dungeons and raids) showcase the devs' talents. Plus the visuals, sound design, and music have always been stellar
I get that. Before the constant shitting up of the game, if Bungie said "No more Content Vault" I would have 100% been back to playing. However, I don't think the Bungie who made Destiny good still exists. Like it's obvious a lot of Bungie staff have been lost over the years, but even if they weren't the Company Culture (I want to fucking die typing that out) has shifted to shit.

Maybe they'll prove me wrong. I won't play until the Content Vault is removed. Like making paid content free to people is gay enough as is, but just flat out removing it is quite possibly the WORST OPTION. I do not understand how you can throw money or support a company that does that. "I'm glad you enjoy that thing you paid for, well now it's free, well now it's gone! Get FUCKED!"

I get arguing against "Modern Industry" is pissing in the wind, but I can't help it sometimes.

Everything in your second paragraph is true and absolutely a BIG PROBLEM. How the fuck do you even try to continue a story YOU DELETED? It's insane.

The eververse has always been shit, but I get it, that's how games are. I just hate that it seems it's no longer "You can get cool thing in game, but if you want the REALLY COOL DESIGN PAY UP PIGGIE!"
 
Vaulting all the seasonal content was one of the biggest fuck you's. Pay like $40 every year for content that will be removed with the next expansion. Why bother playing shit that'll disappear.
 
As if Bungo needed even more bad PR at the moment. Fucking hell.
is there even enough people to care about bungo? outside the two bit raiders/sloptubers anyone that doesn't have sunken cost or stockholm has stopped playing the game a long time ago.
Vaulting all the seasonal content was one of the biggest fuck you's. Pay like $40 every year for content that will be removed with the next expansion. Why bother playing shit that'll disappear.
sunsetting was bad but vaulting was worse, if bungie hadn't done any of that shit and reverted sunsetting they wouldn't have bled players but good luck getting that through the heads of people in charge, sunsetted weapons remain with the light level lock to this day btw.
SUFFAH BUNGO.
 
is there even enough people to care about bungo? outside the two bit raiders/sloptubers anyone that doesn't have sunken cost or stockholm has stopped playing the game a long time ago.

sunsetting was bad but vaulting was worse, if bungie hadn't done any of that shit and reverted sunsetting they wouldn't have bled players but good luck getting that through the heads of people in charge, sunsetted weapons remain with the light level lock to this day btw.
SUFFAH BUNGO.
They actually un-sunset everything I believe at TFS launch, so you could actually use anything you still had from back in the day in new content again (and you still can, if not for the aforementioned New Gear bonus that nerfs your reward score). It made a lot of people realize how power-crept a lot of those old guns were, which is a more natural way of getting people to move on to new things: make something cooler, and people will go chase it. But as always, Bungo did a heavy-handed solution to a "problem" that wasn't all that bad.

With regards to content vaulting, I get why they did it; having to keep everything up to date with every release was only adding to technical debt over time, and it was only going to make the game bloat to an unwieldy size if it kept up. Maybe it was the only solution, or maybe it was the best solution at the time, but content vaulting wouldn't have been nearly as big of a deal if they still made it available in some way. Make a dedicated standalone release of everything in a particular season, make it available for free, and tell people that those standalone releases will not be receiving major support, but will be available to play whenever you want. But that wouldn't pay for another of Pete's cars, so they never did, and as a result, it's hard for a new player to get invested when over half of the game's content is permanently unplayable. Good luck seeing it happen now.

It might not apply to Destiny, but if the Stop Killing Games initiative actually manages to get some consumer protections in place, I would love to see those enforced on Bungie to force them to go back and make all the old content playable again. I don't see any way it'll happen otherwise.
 
The eververse has always been shit, but I get it, that's how games are. I just hate that it seems it's no longer "You can get cool thing in game, but if you want the REALLY COOL DESIGN PAY UP PIGGIE!"
I have to ask myself what even goes on in the mind of the average manager at Bungie to make these shitass decisions. Sell a single set for $20 when you've got barely 20K active players? If we're generous and say 1/10 of those players bought one, you're looking at $40K in profits, which is like a drop in the bucket. You'd want to maximize player retention so you're get like 100K active players (from a 300K peak) to increase your profits fivefold. Make the game exciting and rewarding enough and more people will be tempted to put money into it.

Every new year a major expansion drops, so every year you release a new set of armor for every activity, that you can get only by taking part in those activities, and you make those sets enticing enough to get players to farm for them. This isn't a radical, novel idea, this is how the game worked up until Beyond Light. Somewhere along the line some piece of shit in charge forgot the carrot part of the whole carrot & stick game. Make it so that once per year, during the anniversary or solstice, eververse items from previous expansions are at half the price, it literally doesn't cost them anything since the product is already made.

The only way any of this makes sense is if they're preparing to bail and shut down the game in a year or two, so they're draining those few paypigs they know are going to stick around until the very end.
 
A roadmap? From the same studio whose mantra is "don't over-deliver"?
I expect the roadmap to only say: "stuff" with no detail.
 
They should take all the campaign content from all the seasons and sell it as a separate single-player game. I used to buy the yearly shit just to play the campaign, and now I can't even be bothered to do that. Dead game.
 
A roadmap? From the same studio whose mantra is "don't over-deliver"?
I expect the roadmap to only say: "stuff" with no detail.
To be fair, devil's advocate and all (and don't take this as a blind defense of Bungo, I've let a lot slide in the past but I've been nothing if not critical of this shitshow), the dev who said that was making a point about not setting such a breakneck pace of content development that the whole studio burns out. It could have been worded better, but put another way: since we don't live in a world of infinite development resources, you can't expect to blow players' socks off with every release or you're going to crash and burn, so do your best to balance quality and quantity. When stated like that, it's a reasonable lesson for any live service game dev to learn, but players latched onto his phrasing and have never let him live it down (and he's still well aware of it).

That said, they were certainly in no danger of overdelivering on this release. The only new stuff was the campaign, which gets old after one playthrough, let alone the three they want you to do to fully unlock everything (and I don't even know about how it works on other characters because I still haven't finished mythic on my first). Everything else was systems updates that launched half-baked and underwhelming, not to mention a new direction for the game that killed interest faster than anyone expected. It was already a tough uphill battle to reignite interest when TFS felt like a logical endpoint for many players, but they completely fucked it up because Tyson Green wanted to make everything into a pointless grindfest for no reason. All that development work that went into gear tiers and the Portal, and all I can think is what we could have gotten if they didn't try to reinvent the wheel and in the process set the whole damn car on fire.

And none of the weekly updates are inspiring any hope in the community at large either, with Bungie putting out slight number increases here and there (+1 power to your drops! more drops!) as though that's going to have any meaningful impact on the slog they put in front of players. It doesn't matter if the grind is slightly faster when it's still hundreds of hours of monotonous gameplay in piss-easy activities just to finally start grinding for the good loot...but then you have the bloated loot pools and RNG and aaaaagh.

Literally, all they had to do was make more Destiny. Maybe they'd never hit pre-TFS numbers again, but they'd still have a dedicated core that wanted to keep playing. And instead they fucked it all up and made a game nobody wants.
They should take all the campaign content from all the seasons and sell it as a separate single-player game. I used to buy the yearly shit just to play the campaign, and now I can't even be bothered to do that. Dead game.
I was thinking about this the other day, and honestly, it would be one hell of an undertaking that I doubt they'd ever tackle unless they were forced to.

For starters, the game itself has changed dramatically over the course of the last eight years. Every year brought new systems, new subclasses, reworks of earlier mechanics, and so on. Much of the content was only playable for a single year at most, but even then, there were a variety of sandbox changes over the course of the year, so you couldn't necessarily say any season was the "definitive" version of the game for that content (and even then, there were changes during seasons too). That's not to say that some of these changes weren't pretty minor, but different builds shined brighter at different points; the year of the subclass 3.0 reworks comes to mind especially.

Then there's the question of how you'd package the content. In theory, you could probably section off chunks of each game world and create discrete levels for each mission in each campaign, which would probably be the easiest way to package the campaigns for players to experience. But then you're missing out on the open world aspect of the games, and the fun of just wandering around and exploring and shooting whatever you see, not to mention how this wouldn't work with anything non-linear. You could maybe package the game's content by years, bundling everything in a particular year into a single release, each one including all the destinations, campaigns, and group content. But then you have the issue earlier where you have to question what build of the game to release it on, not to mention having to include multiple destinations for single pieces of content in that year's seasons, effectively requiring most of the game again. Maybe you could just bundle it all together and avoid those issues entirely, but that would be a huge download.

And then you have to factor in the always-online nature of the game, and whether it would continue to be supported in the future. Like yeah, D1 is still alive and kicking all these years later, and Bungie hasn't stated it's coming down any time soon...but we all know it's only a matter of time. The same would hold for D2 and this hypothetical legacy collection as well. If they wanted to ensure people could play it forever, they'd have to figure out how to make sure everything can run locally, as well as how to let players get together and play multiplayer together if they wanted, which would require God knows how much reworking of their network code. It's not impossible, I'm sure, but it could be complicated.

That, along with a bunch of other minor things like how you handle loot, would make this quite the undertaking. But let's just assume that they suddenly have infinite resources and they can make anything happen. My ideal D2 legacy version would be:
  • Everything from D2 launch all the way through the end of TFS, including the Episodes and Rite of the Nine
  • A Director screen with every single world that D2 has to offer, including the Pyramid variants of the vaulted worlds, as well as finishing things they never got around to (Cosmodrome, anyone?)
  • Running on the final updated version of TFS's engine and its sandbox, since most of the content should already be updated to work fine on that build
  • Campaigns are all fully replayable at any time, and any activity from the game's history can be selected at will (including variants)
  • Everything in collections is unlocked, everything is available for transmog, and any weapon or armor piece can be pulled out and adjusted exactly how you want it (no reason to require a grind, after all)
  • Every dungeon and raid is updated with RotN's Explorer mode, allowing players to solo leisurely and experience things they might never have before, while keeping the originals as an option
  • An in-game museum showcasing things that would be too complex to show in-game all the time (like the Undying portal or the Dawn fractaline collector)
  • Server support and matchmaking at launch, but it can be played entirely offline if players choose, and support for custom servers or P2P connections among friends
  • Cheats, maybe? Honestly I just wanna play the Craftening again
It'll never happen, but man, I can dream.
 
In retrospect doing Destiny 3 instead of Beyond Light might've been a better option.
 
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