DC Comics Multimedia General - A crisis of infinite fuck ups

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Do what Batman Brave and the Bold did, but with more budget. That show was a good demonstration of using classic elements without feeling too zany. Stargirl (live action from the 2020) so far seems to be good. No idea about the Arrow and the Flash show of the 2010s.
 
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I have honestly been thinking through how I would set up this universe, more importantly Superman and Batman, but am curious as to how others would create a cohesive DC world. I find that in thinking about it, I come up with too much as DC has so many characters I would want to have roaming around.
indie! like someone on 4chan came up with the idea of adapting American Alien, and advertising it as your typical a24 slop but then have word of mouth get out that the movie thats all about the plight of being adopted is actually a superman film. someone ITT talked about making some tv drama where you take the backstories of the justice league and make them like a police force for a city but you don't advertise it as such. less like Gotham or Wonderland and more like a rich orphan that grows up to fight crime and a country boy who is on the same team and an immigrant from a place where women have different upbringings and they have to deal with each other as much as they deal with the criminals themselves.

Also there's the obvious Batman Beyond, except you include the rest of the bat family. they're all older and retired, Keaton is the obvious pick for batman and then have Marlon Wayans as Jason Todd, Chris odonnell as Dick Grayson, for some reason i'm thinking Jake Gyllenhaal as Tim, or someone around that age. Alicia as Barbara, and we don't include the rest in the movie yet. but essentially everyone has moved on 20 years ago except Bruce. i would take out the part about Terry being a clone of bruce too, just mixed, white dad and some weird asian-hispanic mutt mom.

i don't know how the profits of streaming work, but i doubt making 52 different tv shows would work. but letting there be multiple batmen running around in different IP universes sounds good. i'm just pissed Matt Reeves has been enslaved to the WB instead of making 6 batman films by now.

I honestly feel like making a cheap Batman and the Bold and Adam West inspired show would work too, imagine bringing it back to ABC as well. In a world where everything is grimdark, just having this silly show on, especially now i bet every single celebrity would love a cameo. We haven't really had multi-cam shows on tv in a couple decades, to zoomers it would be fresh and unique, it being hilariously cheap helps too.

Especially in this TikTok age, its fairly obvious no one gives a fuck about "CGI effects" and as long as you pretend its normal people are ok with whatever stupid look you give something. That was one the things i liked about the first Shazam!, it kept shit grounded and cheap and it would have been neat to continue that, focus more on the cheap stuff like high drama.

Like when you look at streaming, everything wants to be some prestige nonsense despite Netflix own data the last dozen years proving people enjoy goyslop. Suits had a budget of about $2 million an episode, and was treated like disposable trash when it was airing, now its a huge show, because people just want empty noise.

Give them that empty noise, but in a way the true fans can handle too, Lower Decks is a great example of this.
 
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It is extremely mid, wouldn't waste your time with it.


Basically sums up Gunn's entire lineup.

I have no idea what le-funny man is doing with DC. Everything about the new universe just seems like he is purposefully making the weirdest/worst decisions he can muster up. Biggest guess with things like Clayface is that he is just clinging to the Suicide Squad as his thing, or just want Alan Tudyk to keep the role.

I am also worried over the lack of certain big hitters like Wonder Woman and Flash in this universe. They have no dedicated projects beyond weird spin-offs, which is concerning...


Honestly, have a question for the thread. If you were to handle the DC Universe, how would you go about it? I have honestly been thinking through how I would set up this universe, more importantly Superman and Batman, but am curious as to how others would create a cohesive DC world. I find that in thinking about it, I come up with too much as DC has so many characters I would want to have roaming around.

DC seems easy, but honestly, given all the history, rogues, super families, and just general exposure so many of their characters have had, I feel like DC is just naturally a much more difficult beast to set up than Marvel, which feels like it had way less to work with.

I think DC would be a simple thing to get going, but the issue is that it always starts with Superman and Batman. You can slide things with the rest. Wonder Woman and Dick Grayson Robin and Aquaman usually follow Superman/Batman very easily since they aren't locked to an era. Maybe throw in Green Arrow into that list too.

For a cohesive DC world, you've got two ways to play. Do you want it to start off with the Golden Age existing? Do you want to situate the big names as golden age heroes that last or do you want to make them pop up in the "modern timeline" that kicks off with Barry Allen?

Besides that, DC's somewhat easy to set up. The reason american superheroes didn't wash the Axis is due to the Axis powers each having some ridiculous artifact that affected a certain radius and mind controlled magic heroes and those with superpowers. The whole Roy Thomas explanation of superheroes going to the wayside in the '50s as related to HUAC? It can kinda sorta fit.

The rise of other groups like the original Suicide Squad, the Blackhawks continuing after the war, etc. All reasonable. The government would totally fund this kinda shit.

You would basically need a group of autistic writers who'd need to cohesively link stuff up. People who have a passion for the comics and the skill to weave all this.



Anyways the Black Adam film is disappointing. I love the JSA. However, I think this should have been done after 2-4 more bits of setup. I get it, the Shazam film was well received and they wanted to link it to Black Adam. But the issue is that they adapted a storyline that had a shitload of moving parts. DC's always had gigantic stories and a potential cast of hundreds of heroes and villains for these events. Even something like Black Reign was just a big story for the JSA and was also connected to parts of Infinite Crisis. It had about a dozen or two cast members that were relevant.


Black Adam should have appeared in a Shazam Film as a major character, then gotten more fleshing out in another movie. Then pick JSA members to show up in other films. It's not that hard. Embrace the comic book teamup without bloating shit up. Set up the JSA, have it be a lotta retired heroes. It coulda been fun. Hell, you had Wonder Woman be a golden age hero in this universe. Why not set up any JSA stuff in the background even as easter eggs? What the fuck is a normie supposed to do with the Black Adam movie? Like, Black Adam himself isn't a top tier name and the film crashed that potential market for now. Dr. Fate and Hawkman are recognizable to casual fans. The rest aren't.


I'm not getting into how they just screwed up Cyclone. But she was never that relevant outside of being one of the prime legacy heroine for the post infinite crisis JSA.
 
Loved the Robinson JSA run, and wish they'd told the Rock to go pound sand. That diva pissed all over the character and the work done to make that movie. Best part of it was Pierce Brosnan anyway.
 
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You either watched those movies as a kid and don't remember them well or never watched them at all.
Are you positing that the Daily Planet characters like Jimmy Olsen and Perry White don't have as much screentime and fleshing out in the Donner Films as they do in the Snyder Films?

Because that's flat-out fucking wrong. Jimmy Olsen gets domed in the first five minutes of BvS--in contrast to the older films, where Jimmy has a significantly larger role in Superman I and II. And that's not including the non-Donner sequels like III, IV, and Supergirl.
 
Are you positing that the Daily Planet characters like Jimmy Olsen and Perry White don't have as much screentime and fleshing out in the Donner Films as they do in the Snyder Films?
Yes? At least if your problem with Mos is that it doesn't utilize the Daily Planet cast well.

where Jimmy has a significantly larger role in Superman I and II. And that's not including the non-Donner sequels like The Gus Gorman Movie featuring Superman, IV, and Supergirl.

Jimmy does jack shit in I and II. Now, if you had a problem with Snyder not adapting comic Jimmy Olsen (circa 2009 when he was cool), the GOAT Gus Gorman or even Lacy from IV, I would understand.
 
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Do you want it to start off with the Golden Age existing? Do you want to situate the big names as golden age heroes that last or do you want to make them pop up in the "modern timeline" that kicks off with Barry Allen?
we're not going to get "golden age" shit, in general the cost for setting media anywhere but the present is too much now for some reason. its why WW2 was barely 1980s-esque.
 
Yes? At least if your problem with Mos is that it doesn't utilize the Daily Planet cast well.
Man of Steel didn't. That movie's version of the Daily Planet and its characters was flat and non-existent, without a single memorable line or interaction from the whopping 2 minutes of screentime that they received.

The Donner films at least had funny interactions between Perry White and Lois, Jimmy and Clark, and even some scenes to contrast Clark's farmboy naivety and innocence against the other employees' callous busybody personalities. They objectively do more with those characters. Do they do as other media, like Lois & Clark? No, but that was a multi-season show literally 99.8% set in the Daily Planet office, adapting characters and dynamics from the comics that hadn't been used yet in any adaptations. The effort was there, at least.

Snyder doming Jimmy Olsen five minutes into BvS shows the exact intention he had in depicting the classic Daily Planet setup: zero.

Jimmy does jack shit in I and II
He does more in them than he does in Batman v Superman. That is factual.
 
I think DC would be a simple thing to get going, but the issue is that it always starts with Superman and Batman. You can slide things with the rest. Wonder Woman and Dick Grayson Robin and Aquaman usually follow Superman/Batman very easily since they aren't locked to an era. Maybe throw in Green Arrow into that list too.
Would argue for a lineup you need Superman first, then Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash and Green Lantern at least. These 5 are pretty much the definitive JL members, so the rest should come after them or around them depending on how you set up your JL.

Really the JL will be the biggest hurdle given that there is no set in stone characters to use besides the Trinity. There needs to be a Flash and Green Lantern, but which version is up in the air as it could be Wally and Stewart rather than Barry and Hal.
As for the last two characters of the 7, it is a complete gamble. The classic lineup is Aquaman and Martian Manhunter, while the New 52 is Cyborg and Aquaman. Then you have the adaptations which instead used characters like Hawkgirl, Green Arrow and even Vixen.

For a cohesive DC world, you've got two ways to play. Do you want it to start off with the Golden Age existing? Do you want to situate the big names as golden age heroes that last or do you want to make them pop up in the "modern timeline" that kicks off with Barry Allen?
The smart thing to do would be to follow the adaptations blueprints on the Golden Age heroes. They are characters who existed previously and are now old timers.

The DCAU and BB&TB both had Wild Cat around as a veteran hero who refuses to retire.

YJ and BB&TB have Jay Gerrig as an old timer as well, usually coming out of retirement to help out when needed.

DC would be smart to pull a Young Justice and just drop the audience into an already established world where the three generations (Golden - Modern - Sidekicks) all already exist. Audiences are fine watching the DC cartoons which all do that. The idea that there needs to be a starting point for supers would arguably complicate things more than just saying they are all here. It also just allows for more time to follow the heroes and sidekicks aren’t being left for later where they will get like 1 film before closure.

Will give Gunn credit, the idea that the universe already has history is the one good thing about his DC plans.

Besides that, DC's somewhat easy to set up. The reason american superheroes didn't wash the Axis is due to the Axis powers each having some ridiculous artifact that affected a certain radius and mind controlled magic heroes and those with superpowers. The whole Roy Thomas explanation of superheroes going to the wayside in the '50s as related to HUAC? It can kinda sorta fit.
They could also just skip over all that, or keep things vague. Tons of the adaptations bring in the Golden heroes without ever mentioning their history or ties to WWII.

They can just be written as a former group of heroes, even given some emotional stakes such as:
 
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DC would be smart to pull a Young Justice and just drop the audience into an already established world where the three generations (Golden - Modern - Sidekicks) all already exist. Audiences are fine watching the DC cartoons which all do that. The idea that there needs to be a starting point for supers would arguably complicate things more than just saying they are all here. It also just allows for more time to follow the heroes and sidekicks aren’t being left for later where they will get like 1 film before closure.

Will give Gunn credit, the idea that the universe already has history is the one good thing about his DC plans.
that's the DC comics universe I grew up with. Post-crisis (Post Zero Hour), you had all the generations together with a sort of "hypertime" replacing the multiverse.
I like it when they use the older characters since it lets the writers fill in the world and create higher stakes without resorting to spamming Joker/Luthor/Darkseid/Sinestro/etc.

Case in point. The '90s JSA arc where Ultra-Humanite puts his brain into a dying Johnny Thunder. Great little story, we got to see it unfold. Johnny got to see his legacy in the end, and then Johns/Robinson left the door open on Johnny. Jakeem was a fine kid, the thunderbolt was a fine hero. Ultra-Humanite was a great fun villain that should be used more. Man was the OG Superman archfoe. Why haven't we used him more? Hell, in today's cultural milieau, you'd think a major villain once known for transplanting his brain into the body of a beautiful actress in the '40s would be a hell of an interesting choice if you wanted to explore the trendy genderspecial stuff. Or are they afraid it'd make their side look bad?

Speaking of which, I'm sad Geoff Johns never got anyone to carry the torch for what he was doing at DC before he left. The Stargirl: Lost Children and JSA stuff was full of great hooks. It had real potential and gave me a glimmer of hope for the old DC I missed. Even had Todd Nauck art too.
 
I will say this is as good a time as any to admit I always wanted the writing chops to write a "mainstream" DCU take that starts off in as jaded and cynical, gray and hopeless, a world as you can get and it gradually turns through sheer force of sweat, blood, tears, will, and hope into the optimistic world the DC heroes inhabited until the Dark Age of Comics. Including all the attempts at "grounding" or "making realistic" or "Snyderverse" as the starting point. Or like it's almost like an analogue horror look into it at the beginning. Like...

-People do freak the fuck out seeing superheroes with clear physics-bending superpowers. The aliens, the gods, the science-bending, all of it.
-When The Bat-Man comes aboard people flip the fuck out at him endangering a goddamn little boy in what looks like a circus outfit. Same for when a little boy is following Flash at his speed. Or why there's a group of teenagers now, society is really fucked up with children being regularly endangered.
-Lex is indeed that seemingly untouchable CEO the way people argue Musk is and it's obvious he buys up love yet everyone knows he's a corrupt piece of shit. He built Lexcorp from nothing. He really is that peak human. Who can stop him?
-The actual horror of Gotham being that dangerous but everyone's too poor, or too tied down, or the rich and glitzy is still JUST worth the enticement.
-The scientific horror of the Speed Force being comprehended, or alien tech like the GL ring, or these heroes claiming they're what are straight out of Greek myth and actually look it.

But. But...

-People begin dubbing them sarcastic names. The Man of Steel. The Dark Knight, Boy Wonder, Dynamic Duo. But they soon become less and less sarcastic. Then beloved. Then everyone knows who you speak about when you write those names down.
-Makeshift costumes give way to real ones. Iconic ones. Symbols get thrown on T-shirts. Symbols become symbols.
-They save the day. They keep saving the day. They band together to save the day. People can't believe it keeps happening. Then, finally, they do.
-The young generation of heroes go from the idea of endangerment and how desperate society is to keeping the promise of tomorrow alive. That even the generation of tomorrow can evoke positivity and change now.
-Lex isn't just busted by Superman and his liasons Clark, Lois, and Jimmy. He runs off. He changes. He becomes the most dangerous man in the world. A man who's so intent on imposing his will he leans into the opposite of the man he hates so much, the "supervillain." The man who casually builds superweaponry out of scraps and confirmed to be far, far, smarter and dangerous than anyone ever realistically comprehended, indeed, the most dangerous man in the world... and yet.... he never wins because there's a man who can match him and go "no". As Elliot S! Maggin put it: “In another place, under different circumstances, this man might have been a Caesar, a Napoleon, a Hitler, or an Archimedes, a Michelangelo, a da Vinci. A Gautama, a Hammurabi, Gandhi. But in this place, at this time, he was more. Superman made him more.”
-Gotham changes. It becomes safe. Criminals huddle under the strong in a dwindling attempt to keep control, and the strong, try as they might, cannot stop the Dynamic Duo of Batman (no longer The Bat-Man) and Robin. The supervillains attempt to make chaos, they attempt to terrify and horrify and make people give up in genuine, shuddering fear... and yet they go down, always go down, to someone more terrifying than they. And he terrifies them. The one they whisper of in shadows so he won't hear them. The one that scares the scary.
-The impossible and the superhuman, the peak of human potential... once so scary, begins to seem different. Something to aspire to. Something that can be turned to good and to benefit others, society, humanity. Technology advances, ages upon ages in a decade, as people try again.
-People open their eyes. They start to rebuild themselves. Society. Things change. The world is colorful again. People do what they can. People smile.
-In short? As the quote goes, they were made to believe a man can fly.

Baaaaaaaaasically make a perception of a world of superheroes that is Marvel-esque at first and indisputably becomes classic DC by the end of the tale.
 
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I will say this is as good a time as any to admit I always wanted the writing chops to write a "mainstream" DCU take that starts off in as jaded and cynical, gray and hopeless, a world as you can get and it gradually turns through sheer force of sweat, blood, tears, will, and hope into the optimistic world the DC heroes inhabited until the Dark Age of Comics. Including all the attempts at "grounding" or "making realistic" or "Snyderverse" as the starting point. Or like it's almost like an analogue horror look into it at the beginning. Like...
Weirdly, I am usually the opposite. I think DC starting goofy and optimistic, but having breakdowns where the heroes try to maintain that optimism is more interesting.

The Cadmus arc of the DCAU was arguably the best written aspect of the universe and I feel a great deal of that was the unraveling of the world into one that is inherently more cynical then before. It made the story hit harder when Superman was now at odds with people he trusted, but have grown to distrust him through circumstances.

Superman vs the Elite is Superman fighting to maintain the optimism in a world devolving into cynicism as the “cool thing.“ I don’t think that story works without the baseline being that DC is an optimistic goofy world, which is why I disagree with Gunn trying to reshape the story to be a starting point. It works because people trust Superman already and he reminds them of the world they are losing.

To me, DC is the opposite of Marvel in tone. Marvel is a realistic world that devolves into comic bullshit. DC is comic bullshit with the real world rearing its head and trying to suppress the comic bullshit. Something like New Frontiers works as the heroes went from loved to now being challenged in an ever changing world and needing to rebound.
 
I will say this is as good a time as any to admit I always wanted the writing chops to write a "mainstream" DCU take that starts off in as jaded and cynical, gray and hopeless, a world as you can get and it gradually turns through sheer force of sweat, blood, tears, will, and hope into the optimistic world the DC heroes inhabited until the Dark Age of Comics. Including all the attempts at "grounding" or "making realistic" or "Snyderverse" as the starting point. Or like it's almost like an analogue horror look into it at the beginning. Like...
Well it works because DC's the long-history universe and you can root a lot of this darkness in pre-Superman publicity vigilantes and whatnot. Have the suicide squad, vigilantes, etc. all exist. Perhaps, in the interim between the JSA retiring in the '50s and the rise of the modern age with Superman/Barry Allen/etc., the original silver age Suicide Squad and similar "super agent" types were sacrificing themselves to save the world. Maybe, those guys are all gone now. The JSA's mostly retired. The world is dark. Somewhere, the last green martian was transported to Earth and has been wandering this world. Somewhere, Niles Caulder gets crippled, John Constantine fucks up, etc. Bad things happen.
-People do freak the fuck out seeing superheroes with clear physics-bending superpowers. The aliens, the gods, the science-bending, all of it.
-When The Bat-Man comes aboard people flip the fuck out at him endangering a goddamn little boy in what looks like a circus outfit. Same for when a little boy is following Flash at his speed. Or why there's a group of teenagers now, society is really fucked up with children being regularly endangered.
-Lex is indeed that seemingly untouchable CEO the way people argue Musk is and it's obvious he buys up love yet everyone knows he's a corrupt piece of shit. He built Lexcorp from nothing. He really is that peak human. Who can stop him?
-The actual horror of Gotham being that dangerous but everyone's too poor, or too tied down, or the rich and glitzy is still JUST worth the enticement.
-The scientific horror of the Speed Force being comprehended, or alien tech like the GL ring, or these heroes claiming they're what are straight out of Greek myth and actually look it.
This could work, have the JSA exist as "historical legends" at this point. The "newsreels" of them being treated as "propaganda". After all, they all seemingly vanished after 1953.

Also, throw in the rest of the fixings. Simon Stagg, Niles Caulder, etc. Plenty of rich assholes with questionable motives. Maybe, in the midst of it all, we get some "true believers". What if Perry White remembers being saved by Alan Scott or Jay Garrick as a lad and knows the heroes to be real. What if, there's always some sort of increasing revival as more and more of these figures come to light. People who were saved start to speak out. Perhaps that Man of Tomorrow really is a good guy, eh?

But ,anyways, heroes come to light again. It's like a ripple effect.

But. But...

-People begin dubbing them sarcastic names. The Man of Steel. The Dark Knight, Boy Wonder, Dynamic Duo. But they soon become less and less sarcastic. Then beloved. Then everyone knows who you speak about when you write those names down.
Epithets are a tradition going back to Homer and beyond. It's a great part of superheroes.

Let's say, Perry White or Lois Lane or someone similar begins to use them in the modern era. It gets revived. Perhaps, someone looks up old golden age newsreels and also begins to use those epithets too.
-Makeshift costumes give way to real ones. Iconic ones. Symbols get thrown on T-shirts. Symbols become symbols.
Symbols pop up more and more. The original era of golden age heroes gets seen in public once more. People begin to look up in the sky. Some old man remembers stories of a local masked do-gooder and sees the same man pop up, barely aged past their '40s. It's not just the JSA. Uncle Sam, Plastic Man, and endless veteran heroes pop up once again. The first appearances of the big 5 of the JLA trigger an endless ripple effect across the planet.
-They save the day. They keep saving the day. They band together to save the day. People can't believe it keeps happening. Then, finally, they do.
Yeah, that's how it goes.
-The young generation of heroes go from the idea of endangerment and how desperate society is to keeping the promise of tomorrow alive. That even the generation of tomorrow can evoke positivity and change now.
Somewhere, Wildcat's too stubborn to remain retired. He puts on the old suit and is the first one in a ground-zero brawl with someone way out of his league. The Superman generation sees him and, somehow, he's recognized from old stories and newsreels and clippings. Perhaps Black Canary recognizes him, who knows. The old guard come out of retirement more and more. The children join in.
-Lex isn't just busted by Superman and his liasons Clark, Lois, and Jimmy. He runs off. He changes. He becomes the most dangerous man in the world. A man who's so intent on imposing his will he leans into the opposite of the man he hates so much, the "supervillain." The man who casually builds superweaponry out of scraps and confirmed to be far, far, smarter and dangerous than anyone ever realistically comprehended, indeed, the most dangerous man in the world... and yet.... he never wins because there's a man who can match him and go "no". As Elliot S! Maggin put it: “In another place, under different circumstances, this man might have been a Caesar, a Napoleon, a Hitler, or an Archimedes, a Michelangelo, a da Vinci. A Gautama, a Hammurabi, Gandhi. But in this place, at this time, he was more. Superman made him more.”
It'd be interesting to see Luthor's downward spiral. Perhaps, early on, Bruce or someone similar tries to get an understanding if they can shift and reform him. But Luthor's ego is too far gone. This isn't someone with the innate good that Bruce, or Ted Kord, or any number of heroic rich guys has.
-Gotham changes. It becomes safe. Criminals huddle under the strong in a dwindling attempt to keep control, and the strong, try as they might, cannot stop the Dynamic Duo of Batman (no longer The Bat-Man) and Robin. The supervillains attempt to make chaos, they attempt to terrify and horrify and make people give up in genuine, shuddering fear... and yet they go down, always go down, to someone more terrifying than they. And he terrifies them. The one they whisper of in shadows so he won't hear them. The one that scares the scary.
One day, they find out that not only is he real, he's got friends.
-The impossible and the superhuman, the peak of human potential... once so scary, begins to seem different. Something to aspire to. Something that can be turned to good and to benefit others, society, humanity. Technology advances, ages upon ages in a decade, as people try again.
At this point, you'd show some legacy heroes in their pre-mask days. John Henry Irons, Ted Kord, Mister Terrific II, etc. Perhaps also show the JSA's offspring in their pre-hero days too. Jack Knight, etc.
-People open their eyes. They start to rebuild themselves. Society. Things change. The world is colorful again. People do what they can. People smile.
Despite it all. Heroes will die. Dan Garrett, Terry Sloane, The Original Doom Patrol, etc. But the world hears about it and honors them. Keep Valhalla Cemetary, it was a nice bit of worldbuilding that the heroes have a cemetery dedicated to their fallen. Perhaps the Doom Patrol go out in the way it's seen in the Batman BATB series. The various monsters, magic, and hidden projects the world's powers have tried to hide start slowly coming out too.
-In short? As the quote goes, they were made to believe a man can fly.

Baaaaaaaaasically make a perception of a world of superheroes that is Marvel-esque at first and indisputably becomes classic DC by the end of the tale.
This isn't just Marvel-esque at first. You'd really need to make it a crapsack world. Kinda just make our IRL but even more demoralized. There is no hope, no nothing. It's all cynical and nihilistic.
 
@Alexander Thaut Ah, my friend, where would I be without you to give me a good viewpoints and suggestions like you always do? I actually want to go over a lot of what you said and will in a hopefully-soon post, but one thing you said struck out at me and it's actually the core idea and point of what this take is meant to be:

This isn't just Marvel-esque at first. You'd really need to make it a crapsack world. Kinda just make our IRL but even more demoralized. There is no hope, no nothing. It's all cynical and nihilistic.

This. This is exactly what I was actually wanted to say. I know, convenient I say it after you said it first, but it's true. I just went with "Marvel-esque" because I feared "IRL" would be too spergy or on the nose.

The concept of going from our real-world hopelessnes to the genuine Real Deal of that DC Optimism fascinates me. That said, that doesn't just include seeing the JLA and other heroes keep pushing on through all the "realistic" consequences until they make people open their eyes to optimism again. It means seeing the other side, the evil evolve.

It's a very roughshod example and I'm fine with it being picked apart, but the Joker is as good as any. That dude, if he started out as a hitman and thug, should absolutely be able to perform evil Mexican cartel-style acts of torture on people if it came to, even if it's not "funny". The kind of evil shit one sees on the dark web for, even if you want to make it he's still a guy who enjoys bad comedy (in fact, the entire point is he does. He's the guy becoming the Joker after all). But it's not enough once Batman comes to the fore and he evolves from a hardcore soulless thug to THE Joker, the very same guy whos big laughing mug you see on merchandise, much as I would have The Bat-Man become Batman. And to me that's an equally fascinating part of the story, to remind everyone these world-threatening plots these "supervillains" come to be known for, those world-threatening stakes that seem so abstract.... come from people who were originally very, VERY "merely" human just like you and I. But a humanity that horrifies than inspires.

Now if this accidentally destroys my intent, since it really is meant to focus on the Optimism, I can drop it from this thought exercise. But just as the heroes start from somewhere in this "realistic crapsack evolves into wonder and optimism" take, so would the villains, you know? And realizing the kind of human refuse they'd ACTUALLY have to start out as before evolving should evoke a level of dread about these characters they probably haven't been able to do so in decades.
 
Weirdly, I am usually the opposite. I think DC starting goofy and optimistic, but having breakdowns where the heroes try to maintain that optimism is more interesting.

The Cadmus arc of the DCAU was arguably the best written aspect of the universe and I feel a great deal of that was the unraveling of the world into one that is inherently more cynical then before. It made the story hit harder when Superman was now at odds with people he trusted, but have grown to distrust him through circumstances.

Superman vs the Elite is Superman fighting to maintain the optimism in a world devolving into cynicism as the “cool thing.“ I don’t think that story works without the baseline being that DC is an optimistic goofy world, which is why I disagree with Gunn trying to reshape the story to be a starting point. It works because people trust Superman already and he reminds them of the world they are losing.

To me, DC is the opposite of Marvel in tone. Marvel is a realistic world that devolves into comic bullshit. DC is comic bullshit with the real world rearing its head and trying to suppress the comic bullshit. Something like New Frontiers works as the heroes went from loved to now being challenged in an ever changing world and needing to rebound.
I absolutely DO see your point here. I can't deny the Cadmus arc was incredible writing and exactly the kind of stuff that puts superheroes through their paces. And I can't even deny what you say on Superman vs the Elite is absolutely correct.

I suppose if I had to put it, this take is intending to take the world to that point that you speak of - the real world stepping in after ceding control to the to the comic bullshit for so long. It's why I made the sperg post to Alexander above on the villains needing to start out as very realistic horrors, how he caught on that the world needs to be IRL Hopeless (but more so, even), and my own insistence on "realistic" reactions at first (child endangerment, public freaking out on the "masquerade" of normality being broken, science up in arrears Everything Known Is Bullshit). And if I inserted such stories or their versions into this take, I would say it's possible, once the Optimism was well-established and had taken full hold.

This did make me think on the interesting meta-take on my idea, that this world was "Optimistic" all along but we just get the most grim, hopeless, "real world" take you can have before the heroes appear begin sweating their way from "grounded" forms and looks into the exact iconic heroes we know them as, down to how they look in say, Jose-Luis Garcia Lopez or Dan Mora outfits. As I think on it this is probably a bizarre character study of sorts for so many potential viewpoint characters. I would definitely, for example, have Bruce start out on The Bat-Man, Vigilante, side of things but adopting Robin forces him to shape up and hyper-focus even more so into Batman, Superhero, to keep him protected because he's a goddamn child, and does so in time to join the Justice League as a full-fledged classical hero and becoming the very guy kids in the real world adore and read about. Same for Science getting over its existential horror over all that new stuff and just rolling up its sleeves to begin studying and applying it, same for the gradual acceptance of teen heroes becoming seen as those with gifted abilities making a change despite their youth, same for the public starting to realize maybe, just maybe the mainstream JL group are genuinely not just heroes, but the same exact bonafide superheroes they read about in comic books or watch in movies.

Again, the entire point is "how can we make RL and all its genuine bleakness and misery evolve, indisputably, into DC Classic?"
 
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It is extremely mid, wouldn't waste your time with it.


Basically sums up Gunn's entire lineup.

I have no idea what le-funny man is doing with DC. Everything about the new universe just seems like he is purposefully making the weirdest/worst decisions he can muster up. Biggest guess with things like Clayface is that he is just clinging to the Suicide Squad as his thing, or just want Alan Tudyk to keep the role.

I am also worried over the lack of certain big hitters like Wonder Woman and Flash in this universe. They have no dedicated projects beyond weird spin-offs, which is concerning...


Honestly, have a question for the thread. If you were to handle the DC Universe, how would you go about it? I have honestly been thinking through how I would set up this universe, more importantly Superman and Batman, but am curious as to how others would create a cohesive DC world. I find that in thinking about it, I come up with too much as DC has so many characters I would want to have roaming around.

DC seems easy, but honestly, given all the history, rogues, super families, and just general exposure so many of their characters have had, I feel like DC is just naturally a much more difficult beast to set up than Marvel, which feels like it had way less to work with.
Superman and Batman-centric, everyone else, for the moment is burned. Get those two right and you’re golden.

Batman would be neo-noir gothic horror and Supes is sci-fi pulp action with a sprinkling of fantastical high-concept stuff like Mxy and New Gods.

The endgame would be KC but the buildup would be opposites for both protags, Superman is worn down by his mantle while Batman grows and becomes a better man, even though the world goes to shit. Like the post credit scenes would be synchronized.

Batman is celebrating New Year’s with the Batfamily, Clark gets home late to an empty apartment and just sits down as fireworks light up the sky. Big Blue’s heart breaking is slowly and painfully built up to, the weight of the world is crushing the poor guy and he’s not handling it well.
 
If you were to handle the DC Universe, how would you go about it?
@Mayor Cody Travers described basically exactly one of the ways I've thought about approaching it so I'm going to go my alternative route.

For movies I wouldn't really want phases and bullshit like Marvel. skip origins. Really all the JLA we don't need origin movies. do it like comics, each movie/franchise is it's own thing. every 5 years we get a random crisis of some sort and all these characters converge in tangential ways. fuck maybe they don't even interact beyond shit like the Justice League, or like GL showing up in Grell's Green Arrow, maybe Bruce Wayne just pops in the daily planet dragging his son in tow to visit Clark to drop off the "research" he asked him for. Shit like that. Crossover exclusively in character moments until the actual crossover movies.

What are the JLA movies like? They're just big loud action shit. Polar opposite of the individual series, let those be character driven let these be just plot and explosions. we don't need faggot build up and Easter eggs. Just well this threat is too big for just batman, call in the big guns. These are the bayformers movies hippie flipping meth and acid.

I'm talking late teen robin (dick grayson) celebrating the fact dad finally let him do it, driving a huge ass bat tank through city streets barking orders at commissioner gordon through coms leading an army of cops, Wonder Woman and Aquaman leading full on military assaults from two fronts, the sky and the water, Superman telling Flash I need you here right now telepathically through a mental link via Martian Manhunter right before he punches Mongul so fucking hard buildings are falling down and Flash is there rebuilding them and saving civilians in real time as it happens. youre seeing buldings drop and rebuild piece by piece in the background while we focus on superman fighting. Batman and Luthor, the two smartest men on planet earth begrudgingly work together reverse engineering a technorganic virus turning everyone on earth into a hive mind of brainiacs through usage of the internet only being slowed down by green lanterns sheer willpower buying them time to prove they can defeat a 12th level intellect while flash continues evacuating civilians as the city of metropolis is being shrunk into a bottle. superman and Martian Manhunter tag team fighting brainiac's prime form on the skull ship from the POV of Lois inside the daily planet building, looking out a window, looking out of a fucking bottle and they're the biggest things you've ever seen. I'm talking movies that cost 3 billion dollars to even imagine let alone film them.

here's the big thing, for me personally if im making it. It's not the real world. It's not a slow drip into the fantastic like the MCU was. It's fucking alien. It's a fantasy world from the jump. there is no NYC, no Chicago, no LA. there is Metropolis. There is Gotham. There is Hub city. They do not really resemble reality. This is a world where Batman in the same day he catches a regular ass pimp and busts up a regular drug den, he might come across another guy who tells him the shipment Joker is getting today, is the legendary sword Excalibur. the trucks full of needles dipped in HiV positive blood and repackaged being sent to hospitals are really just the distraction and just for kicks he's planning on opening a portal to avalon and raping the wizard Merlin or something.

Go all the way. Fuck it. I want Wonder Woman going across the river Styx to get someone's soul back. Green Lantern travelling to the beginning of time to stop Krona seeing the hand come out of the black hole at the start of days, the spectre bringing the literal wrath of god down. make the solo movie franchises super their own independent stories with overarching developments. And interrupt them every 5 years with insane shit you can either have seen everything else or none of it to understand the basic gist because it's just some huge event that can't be handled alone or with just the individual heroes cast. Then return to the status quo, everyone goes home back to their normal adventures.

and probably don't bother with any of the JSA and stuff. basically just make it Batman and Superman are the first. Wonder Woman came after, then the rest. But if you wanna go JSA route that's fine, the world isn't ours so any history you add wouldn't be like weird or retconny it's just the curtain pulled back more. But my point is just drop people into a foreign sort of timeless environment, don't worry about real world rules or history because it should be irrelevant. Think of it like you're making a movie in middle earth or something, except there are cities and cars and shit. It's not our world but souped up. It's their world and we have enough in common you can just understand it. It's how the cartoons and comics have handled it forever with dc since the silver age.

The one thing I've never gotten out of a superhero movie I've ever wanted is just how fucking weird their world is. I really really want that out of dc. Where in a normal day your average junkie you know might decide fuck heroin I'm going to buy some Venom, I know a guy. and there are dudes in costumes guarding secret prisons, aliens invading is a regular occurance, if you're in gotham it's somehow the 1930s but the 1970s at the same time, but you can take a train to metropolis and it's art deco crossed with the future. Just make it a fucking fantasy world.
 
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