Conservative Mysticism - autistic pondering about new age conservatism

[AMHOLIO]

I follow two different cows that go into a weird, right wing leaning mysticsm. Let me briefly go over them before I continue.

Rudyard Lynch

Right wing posterboy for ayahuasca abuse, dropped a video on Christmas morning of all the revelations he had on it and kratom.

TaxedBrass made a brief summary of some of what he says, other users go on to write more themselves in the highlights. What goes from encouraging his audience to go on their own spirit trip turns to batshit insanity.

HE SAYS GOD TOLD HIM THAT IT WAS HIS DUTY TO FOUND A RELIGION LMAOOOO HES GOING TO BECOME A CULT LEADER LMAOOO HES LEGITIMATELY GOING TO TRY AND FOUND A FUCKING RELIGION. THIS IS FUCKING INSANE WTF IS GOING ON AHHHHHHHH

Says he saw inside the mind of God. Refers to God as Yahweh. He's honestly coming off to me as an Irish equivalent of Black Hebrew Israelites.

He says he is God's great gift to Humanity lmao

Compares God to Lord of the Rings

While Rudy has been quietly trying to play down his psycho screed, it's clear that his mouthpiece of odin schtick wasn't a joke or a metaphor. Ayahuasca induces weirdness, but it's shown he's had these paganistic & esoteric leanings beforehand, the drug abuse only making it worse.

Hoe_Math
He is a fan of Rudyard but doesn't seem to share the exact same schizoism. Observe:

Definitely some Jordan Peterson & WhatIfAltHist tones.

He is using some Tree of Life millenia old mysticism diagram to suggest that there's ancient wisdom in the color of Darth Vader & Luke Skywalker's light sabre shades & Obi-Wan Kenobi quotes.

Autistic screed in question.


While two isn't yet a pattern, I think there's a higher chance of a fringe offshoot of nu-occult bullshit possibly developing around the corner in some of the more right wing spheres. Both of these men see themselves as mentors and see themselves closer to historical philosophers in their youtube-fsmous induced arrogance. The both seem to go towards mysticism to find secret knowledge and wisdom no other human seems to have since their lives seem unfulfilling, their notable accomplishments only being youtube fame, having no luck with women, and few friends.

Do you think right wing revival of esoterism, paganism, and/or general magical bullshit will happen? Why do you think or don't think it will? Let me know if you see some in the upcoming years and post it to this thread.

For my theory, I think the backlash of the old R/atheism mentality and not getting fulfilled by a trad Christian lifestyle/not wantint to be told no by the church leads some of these men towards alternative religious paths. The old internet kneejerk atheist movement was originally a bunch of angry young men rebeling against their traditional parents or looking for someone to fight and blame things on for their own ego. While many people find comfort and groups that accept them in Christianity, the restrictions on hedonistic aspect, the pressure to conform to a group they might be too autistic or too awkward to fit into, and the need to still feel fulfilled with something seem to drive some young right wingers towards the mystical side of religious studies. It can still be Christian, or it can still be traditional white person religion, or it can be both in a weird synchronization that doesn't jive well unless you're following their bizarre logic train, but most importantly, it can feel like you are the main protagonist. You

This will still apply to more small and fringe groups of autists, MAYBE a small wing offshoot of a larger whole like groypers were to American republicans general, but I think this will be an upcoming trend to look for in right wing rising superstars of the second Trump term. What do you think?

 

[XL xQgg?QcQCaTYDMjqoDnYpG]

Esoteric mysticism is seemingly widespread among German right-wingers
I find it really fucking annoying and dumb
At its core, mysticism is a rejection of not just reason, but also the real world as it exists
All human progress, not just in science and technology, but also ethics and philosophy, comes from identifying reality and not bypassing it, and mysticism works against that

 

[Vriljami]

Do you think right wing revival of esoterism, paganism, and/or general magical bullshit will happen? Why do you think or don't think it will? Let me know if you see some in the upcoming years and post it to this thread.

Before, say, 2014/2015 the Order of Nine Angles mainly existed in the internet. 10 years ago they started to have presence in real life extreme right groups, and since 2017 they have been responsible for hundreds of crimes motivated by occultism. We have threads on Atomwaffen and 764, I believe.

So, to keep this brief: Is occultism having a comeback? Definitely.

 

[AMHOLIO]

All human progress, not just in science and technology, but also ethics and philosophy, comes from identifying reality and not bypassing it, and mysticism works against that

It's hard to not to want the impossible sometimes. It's understandable, but chasing after a dream so hard you ignore reality really impedes progress. Thanks man.

So, to keep this brief: Is occultism having a comeback? Definitely

Thank you! With the pendulum shift, there's going to be less left wing grifters and attention seekers as they'll run towards the right for money and clout, and groups like this stand to gain a bit of ground in the shift. I'll be keeping my eye on this.

 

[Mordecai "3 Finger" Brown]

Hoe_Math
He is a fan of Rudyard but doesn't seem to share the exact same schizoism. Observe:

I'm less familiar with Rudyard's backstory, but the Cartoon Folkhero Sex Philosopher hoe_math originally discovered the occult & elements of Mysticism approaching it from the left.

- He grew up in New England to "hands off parents" 40 years ago (who are now suspected to be divorced) in what sounds like a matriarchal household. He talks with disdain about his parents laissez-faire style, claiming they wouldn't answer his childlike curious existential questions, instead telling him that's a job for " TV & the education system".
- He sought hedonistic sexual pleasure early. His body count is in triple digits. He claims to have slept with over 120 PEOPLE, leading to some unsubstantiated speculation that he swings both ways. He slept with two dozen women before the age of 24 when he claims to have been a Seth-Rogen-shaped loser. Then hit the gym and added 36 more the next calendar year.
- He was an Obama supporter in 2008. When he celebrated Barack's 1st historic win, he was redpilled when a black acquaintance told him during the celebration that it was their turn now for retribution. He was still living & working in bughive cities doing bugmen jobs in 2020 a dozen years later when he was horrified by the looting & shooting & carjackings of BLM from his bedroom window.
- He spent a job chunk of his formative adult years in NYC & SF. His "dream job" was some bugman Communications position with the public in NYC that was the pinnacle of his existence. He still whines to this day about the grief over COVID killing his "dream job", how he laid around sleep all day for a year after being a NEET, how the "trauma" from the loss of this job and the COVID changes to society have scarred him for like & are severely affecting his mental & psychological health 5 years later.
- He mocks Astrology girls at every opportunity for being gullible morons that look to the stars to avoid accountability for their actions and their fate. Then he turns around proclaims the virtues of Tarot card reading. And that he unironically loves New Age woo not just because it helps him get laid, but that he likes the spiritual and metaphysical elements of Crystal shops, etc.
- He joined some A.A. (not the alcoholics one) secret society based on Golden Dawn by Alistair Crowley. He nerded out and loved reading about the lore, This would've still been in his more leftist, pre-COVID phase. He didn't like the actual wacky rituals as much, more the reading. He ended up leaving within a year IIRC because he was disappointed when he asked his superiors some probing existential questions and he found their answers lacking.
- His favorite part of Christianity is the Traditional Latin Mass. He denies being a Christian himself, much like Jordan B. Peterson. But frequently makes reference to God & a higher power, Christianity representing ancient wisdom, a moral framework, etc. He finds the more contemporary & mainstream elements of modern Christianity to be "empty, dry & corrupt".

 

[VM_]

If it does pick up more steam, it's because moneyed elites are backing it up fully, although you could mostly thank Evola and Traditionalism kind of taking off recently, luring in both Christians and Pagans, but like the original Volkisch and Nazi movements, they're all reactionary movements against communism and, to some extent, liberalism. It's more obvious in South America with the likes of Miguel Serrano, Nimrod de Rosario, and the more political/Catholic Nacionalismo movement in Argentina being staunch anti-communists. The "mysticism" is just the continuation of the mishmash of New Age theosophic thought and Nordicism that the Nazis left us after the war, with the English groups like 09A/Atomwaffen steering more towards Satanism (liberal-friendly/honeytrap reasons) and the Spanish ones towards Templarism (Catholic-friendly). Serrano and Rosario seem to be more inspired by traditionalism, and the Anglo ones are more influenced by Aleister Crowley and his more liberal, friendly ideals. You could keep going down the rabbit hole with Black nationalist groups like the 5 Percenters and Nation of Islam groups being not too dissimilar from their white nationalist counterparts and in a way a form of "conservative mysticism".

 

[Althalus]

At its core, mysticism is a rejection of not just reason, but also the real world as it exists

"Mysticism" is an attempt to explain the non-material world, and how it interfaces with the material. It is not a "rejection" of reason, or the material world, it just has a different logic structure and different hypotheses, because the Material and Non-Material worlds operate on different rules.

All human progress, not just in science and technology, but also ethics and philosophy, comes from identifying reality and not bypassing it, and mysticism works against that

This is simply factually wrong. The earliest Greek thinkers, such as Archimedes, Aristotle, and Plato, were initiates of, and contributors to, occult societies. Modern chemistry is demonstrably a derivative of medieval Alchemy. You would be surprised how many past scientists were also occultists or into mysticism. Isaac Newton and Robert Boyle are two examples I can recall off the top of my head. The simplistic modern assumptions that science and mysticism are total opposites, and that one has to reject one to believe the other, are just that- simplistic modern assumptions made by people who claim to believe in science while ironically rejecting any ideas they are unfamiliar with.

 

[A Very Big Fish]

I don't think it's a trend. If I showed Rudyard's video of his 'vision quest' to my conservative friends or relatives, I think they'd all just conclude he's a drugged out of his mind and probably needs help.

I know some who are more 'traditionally' new-age where they're just into a weird mish mash of random spiritual ideas with no real theology/philosophy, but that seems more like a bored single woman past her 40's thing.

 

[XL xQgg?QcQCaTYDMjqoDnYpG]

"Mysticism" is an attempt to explain the non-material world, and how it interfaces with the material. It is not a "rejection" of reason, or the material world, it just has a different logic structure and different hypotheses.

You would be surprised how many past scientists were also occultists or into mysticism. Isaac Newton and Robert Boyle are two examples I can recall off the top of my head. The simplistic modern assumptions that science and mysticism are total opposites, and that one has to reject one to believe the other, are just that- simplistic modern assumptions made by people who claim to believe in science while ironically rejecting any ideas they are unfamiliar with.

A different logic structure? Logic isn't optional or plural, it's the formal method of reasoning based on consistent, non-contradictory identification. It presupposes that things have identity, that contradictions cannot exist, and that causes lead to effects. You can't invent a "different logic" that rejects these foundations, that's a rejection of reason itself.
What mysticism does is posit unverifiable claims about a "non-material world" and insists that this world interacts with reality, or "the material world" as you like, but these claims cannot be tested, demonstrated, or even coherently described. That's not a hypothesis in the meaningful sense, that's epistemic nihilism in the disguise of wanting to sound profound.
Newton and Boyle are evidence for the human ability to compartmentalize, they are not evidence that mysticism is valid. Newton also believed in alchemy.
What made Newton's physics valid was not his mysticism, it was the part of his method based on reason, observation, and consistency with reality. That is how and where progress happens. Mysticism contributes nothing to that process. It's a way to hijack language in order to bypass thinking.
Mysticism must be rejected because it offers no path to knowledge. It only offers unearned authority, self-deception, and an illusion of depth at best.

 

[Althalus]

A different logic structure? Logic isn't optional or plural, it's the formal method of reasoning based on consistent, non-contradictory identification.

Correct.

It presupposes that things have identity, that contradictions cannot exist, and that causes lead to effects. You can't invent a "different logic" that rejects these foundations, that's a rejection of reason itself.

Contradictions can exist if you are using logic to describe the difference between how the material world works, and how the non-material world works. Different aspects of reality operate according to different rules, quantum physics is an example of "material" science finding this.

Also the double-slit experiment is something you should be aware of, if you aren't already.

What mysticism does is posit unverifiable claims about a "non-material world" and insists that this world interacts with reality, or "the material world" as you like, but these claims cannot be tested, demonstrated, or even coherently described.

It can be tested, demonstrated, and coherently described. Just that by definition of it being non-material, it can't be tested, demonstrated, or described in the same way as the material.

That's not a hypothesis in the meaningful sense, that's epistemic nihilism in the disguise of wanting to sound profound.

"Epistemic nihilism in the disguise of wanting to sound profound" Is the perfect description of materialist science rejecting the existence of the non-material because it doesn't fit their understanding of the world.

Newton and Boyle are evidence for the human ability to compartmentalize, they are not evidence that mysticism is valid. Newton also believed in alchemy.

Your point was that you are saying mysticism has no value and should be rejected. My point is that many scientific figures were believers in mysticism and used it as a foundation for science. E.g. alchemy being the beginning of chemistry.

Mysticism must be rejected because it offers no path to knowledge. It only offers unearned authority, self-deception, and an illusion of depth at best.

Ironic you say this, considering that modern science has a severe problem with replicating studies, and also credentialism bias creating a bubble where they ignore everyone outside their circle. Both of these are the definition of self-deception and illusion of depth.

 

[XL xQgg?QcQCaTYDMjqoDnYpG]

Contradictions can exist if you are using logic to describe the difference between how the material world works, and how the non-material world works. Different aspects of reality operate according to different rules, quantum physics is an example of "material" science finding this.

Also the double-slit experiment is something you should be aware of, if you aren't already.

Contradictions can't exist, not in the material world, not in any alleged "non-material" realm. A contradiction isn't merely something odd or counterintuitive. A contradiction means a thing is A and not-A at the same time in the same respect. If something works differently, that's not a contradiction, it's a different identity, subject to discovery and integration. You don't get to bypass logic by calling it a "different aspect of reality", you still have to identify it and explain it without contradiction, or what you're doing is not knowledge.
Invoking quantum physics won't help you here. Quantum phenomena are counterintuitive, but they're modeled, tested, mathematically described, and integrated into a working causal framework. That's science confronting complexity.

It can be tested, demonstrated, and coherently described. Just that by definition of it being non-material, it can't be tested, demonstrated, or described in the same way as the material.

That's a textbook bait and switch. Tested how, then? What is the method? Where is the procedure? Who can reproduce it?
If your answer is "well, you have to feel it, intuit it, or get the right gnosis", then you've already conceded.

Your point was that you are saying mysticism has no value and should be rejected. My point is that many scientific figures were believers in mysticism and used it as a foundation for science. E.g. alchemy being the beginning of chemistry.

That's like saying astrology inspired astronomy. True, but intellectually irrelevant. Astrology did not become valid because it got some people thinking. Alchemy's contribution to chemistry only came when mysticism was dropped, and reason, experimentation, and falsification took over. That is my entire point. Progress came by abandoning mysticism, not preserving it.

modern science has a severe problem with replicating studies, and also credentialism bias creating a bubble where they ignore everyone outside their circle. Both of these are the definition of self-deception and illusion of depth.

That's a critique of how some people fail to live up to reason, not a justification for mysticism. If scientists fail, the answer isn't "reject reason", it's "actually use reason".
The difference is that science has standards and can fail them. Mysticism has no standards and can never fail anything, because it never tries to prove anything in the first place.

 

[AMHOLIO]

I don't think it's a trend. If I showed Rudyard's video of his 'vision quest' to my conservative friends or relatives, I think they'd all just conclude he's a drugged out of his mind and probably needs help.

You're definitely right on that. I meant more young people, usually people who were left leaning or undecided and now lean right. Most of the time conservatives live up to their name - they stick to their values. Most normal conservatives and probably most of the atypical ones aren't going to jump into a new religion without a lot of testing or a hard base in traditional church activties.

I'm also thinking more non-normie internet dwellers would be the type picked up. Small internet groups more akin to people like the effective altruism stupidity.


Also, good job debating calmly over mysticism you two, genuinely nice to see.

 

[Radola Gajda]

I don't think it's a trend. If I showed Rudyard's video of his 'vision quest' to my conservative friends or relatives, I think they'd all just conclude he's a drugged out of his mind and probably needs help.

He was drinking Kratom on camera. And admitted that he did Ayahuasca.

Goon list

My mom raped and tortured me.

 

[Mordecai "3 Finger" Brown]

I will freely admit that I'm not learned/smart/enlightened enough to really even appreciate what Mysticism exactly is.

I'd contribute though a theory that Joe Rogan really contributed to bro science popularization aspects of Conservative Mysticism, particularly its association with drug use.

First off, Rogan himself & many others would quibble with the "conservative" label. But Rogan's audience has always consisted of youngish, fit, pothead men interested in MMA, comedy, anti-SJW politics, fitness, hunting, TRT, neurotropics, etc.

Rogan also was one of the first big social media/mainstream personalities to really embrace weed culture. Particularly rebranding regular marijuana use as an escape not just something for hippies, blacks & stoners. Joe really was able to advocate for regular MJ use as something harmless & beneficial that could be part of a wider, gym rat, bro culture regimen. He'd smoke weed live on his podcast and invite guests to do the same, probably most famously Elon Musk on a few occasions.

Rogan also essentially bullied a pre-fame Steven Crowder to tears on air when Crowder dared to push back on Joe a little with the more mainstream narrative that he personally didn't care for weed and weed was for losers.

(Here's a short compilation of the longer bullying debate from 8 years ago where Rogan won't let it go that a reluctant Crowder won't bend the knee that weed cures cancer and reduces car accident fatalities)

Secondly, it's sort of been swept under the rug now to a degree, but pre-Spotify Rogan was in a partnership with con man Aubrey Marcus with their shared company Onnit to sell neurotropic snake oil supplements, namely Alpha Brain, a supplement containing magic mushroom (Corticepts)? ingredients that purported to vaguely improve neural plasticity and performance. Similar to the drug in Limitless with Bradley Cooper.

The gym bros all ate this up, as it cognitively mirrored their philosophy to be all about self-improvement, personal records and extracting gains through steroids, creatine or other more dubious products promising muscle growth.

A lot of the marketing was Rogan using his own platform and brand to give personal testimonials to its unquantifiable effects. And parroting the talking points of its clinical evidence of benefit through dubious trials performed and paid for by their own company.

While Rogan didn't necessarily veer into Mysticism narratives, much like his pro-marijuana stance, the shilling of his neurotropic products were centered around the normalization of taking unregulated daily supplements for the hope of improved cognitive function and perhaps enlightenment. In Rogan's own case, this would likely come in the form of creativity in writing new comedy material that he takes so much pride in above all despite it being the worst kept secret of all that even his fans think he's awful.

Then, Rogan went another step forward in normalizing hallucinogenic and dissociative drugs like DMT, ayahuasca and ketamine either just for a metaphysical lark or as novel treatments for depression and PTSD.

A near decade ago, I'm sure many gym bros first learned of DMT & ayahuasca from Rogan's description of his personal use and bringing on guests who had done the same. Rogan personally talking about his DMT use & experience, particularly the implication that these hallucinogenic drug trips could have positive permanent personality changes and possibly even permanently alleviate trauma and mental illness. This really gave permission to the young, gym bro crowd to experiment with another drug just like their idol when such substances were previously associated with dirty hippies, musicians and Vietnam vets.

Besides the possible self-improvement and mental health curative angles, Rogan really sold DMT/ayahuasca as something he was personally doing simply out of curiosity and thrill-seeking, in hopes of achieving some great spiritual and metaphysical enlightenment.

To a lesser degree, he was also a big advocate for off-label use of hallucinogenics drugs and dissociative drugs like ketamine for mental health disorders. I recall a pre-Spotify episode where he brought Neal Brennan (writer, most famously on the OG Chapelle Show) to discuss in detail his experience going to a physician in California for ketamine treatments for his incalcitrant depression long before it became more widespread.

Finally, while not specifically Mysticism, Rogan also platformed a lot of alternative history, pseudoscience, ancient aliens, alternative geology stuff, bringing it to bigger audiences and giving it more credibility just being featured on Rogan's brand in juxtaposition to actual credentialed mainstream guests.

In particular I'm thinking of Graham Hancock, a serial guest who is promoting the Ancient Advanced Civilizations theory of discoveries like Goebkli Tepe. There was another similar rogue geologist/historian type who was much the same. (Edit: The other guy I was thinking of was Randall Carlson).

Then there were even less credible types like fellow MMA coach friend Eddie Bravo who used to be platformed often as a BJJ expert but then frequently permitted to opine on his Flat Earth beliefs.

So, while Mysticism itself is likely too abstract and too high-thinking for a Rogan type and many of his guests/followers, I'd argue that he played a significant role in normalizing casual hallucinogenic and dissociative drug use and experimentation. Along with normalizing alternative history, conspiracy-minded, magical thinking ideas as more credible theories and ideologies that could be discussed and admitted in polite society rather than the post-enlightenment, atheist, rationalist, The ScienceTM mainstream approved consensus opinions of the modern world.

 

[Mordecai "3 Finger" Brown]

Archive

“Spiritual” shops with crystals and buddha statues always use the Papyrus font (image) or something “old”-looking. They want to seem old because good spiritual practices withstand the test of time.

This seems like another example of Conservative Mysticism from old pal hoe_math, though more in a mocking tone of leftist New Age types and then losing the plot in some schizo associations and trailing off into criticism of the vague notion of "passion".

The observation that the Eastern medicine AWFL types co-opt ancient credibility by jacketing themselves with specific fonts and colors that evoke certain thoughts and emotions is a good one.

Much like redpill cartoon dating guru hoe_math's hypocrisy on Astrology, secretly enjoying it and giving it credence when it suits him while mocking "dumb Astrology girls", there is some irony as here as well given that he has admitted that he personally gets a thrill checking out the latest "crystal shop" he finds even if it all started like everything as a ploy to get laid.

 

[Haffhart]

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This seems like another example of Conservative Mysticism from old pal hoe_math, though more in a mocking tone of leftist New Age types and then losing the plot in some schizo associations and trailing off into criticism of the vague notion of "passion".

The observation that the Eastern medicine AWFL types co-opt ancient credibility by jacketing themselves with specific fonts and colors that evoke certain thoughts and emotions is a good one.

Much like redpill cartoon dating guru hoe_math's hypocrisy on Astrology, secretly enjoying it and giving it credence when it suits him while mocking "dumb Astrology girls", there is some irony as here as well given that he has admitted that he personally gets a thrill checking out the latest "crystal shop" he finds even if it all started like everything as a ploy to get laid.

His "spiritual insight" is so basic. Spiritual stuff = old, bad = evil cause no see, fire = passion one part of love. It's like he watched ATLA for the first time. Bro, I learned this from YA fantasy - if you're not ranting about the Archons and cube worship you're grifting below your weightclass.

 

[Punished Derich]

I think a lot of it as that Evola is popular on the online English speaking right and also that Dharmic religion (for some reason mostly Advaita Vedanta and Theravada Buddhism) is sometimes consulted for insight particularly because they don't have exclusionary cosmology and don't demand conversion. There's also an element of using Dharmic religion to fill the spiritual void abandoning Christianity left in many but they don't seem to go deeper than using Buddhist/Hindu imagery really.

 

[Bummer]

It's just a rejection of modern egalitarian society. They won't go with Christianity because the churches still exist and have made massive concessions to globohomo (see Austin Metcalf's dad for an example of what they see Christianity as). It's mostly aesthetic though, as much as they hate modern Secular society they are raised in it like all of us and are now incapable of truly believing any spiritual proposition entirely, the seeds of doubt are ever present. What I'm trying to say is there is an irony in all of this; they adopt a pagan larp as a revolt against modernity because they are incapable of understanding religion outside of the modern framework that views it as essentially a t-shirt graphic. One of the many trinkets you select and assemble to form your atomized identity.

 

[VM_]

I think a lot of it as that Evola is popular on the online English speaking right and also that Dharmic religion (for some reason mostly Advaita Vedanta and Theravada Buddhism) is sometimes consulted for insight particularly because they don't have exclusionary cosmology and don't demand conversion. There's also an element of using Dharmic religion to fill the spiritual void abandoning Christianity left in many but they don't seem to go deeper than using Buddhist/Hindu imagery really.

It's just a rejection of modern egalitarian society. They won't go with Christianity because the churches still exist and have made massive concessions to globohomo (see Austin Metcalf's dad for an example of what they see Christianity as). It's mostly aesthetic though, as much as they hate modern Secular society they are raised in it like all of us and are now incapable of truly believing any spiritual proposition entirely, the seeds of doubt are ever present. What I'm trying to say is there is an irony in all of this; they adopt a pagan larp as a revolt against modernity because they are incapable of understanding religion outside of the modern framework that views it as essentially a t-shirt graphic. One of the many trinkets you select and assemble to form your atomized identity.

This is the Shinrikyo cult in a nutshell - fusing Buddhism, apocalyptic Christianity, and Western-based conspiracy lore into a hodgepodge to create a new religion. Don't think the group would have gone as far as it did if Japan itself weren't so atomized.

 

[Mister Fister]