Ask a genuine anarcho-capitalist anything* - *ideally where a libertarian framework is relevant

  • 🏰 The Fediverse is up. If you know, you know.
  • Want to keep track of this thread?
    Accounts can bookmark posts, watch threads for updates, and jump back to where you stopped reading.
    Create account
Maybe in this situation I'm just more charismatic, likeable than you and am able to convince people to back me with the promises of land, loot and property?
You're rambling in hypotheticals where you magically get all the leverage of charisma, guns, obedience, infinite resources, and then treat that fantasy outcome as if it were an argument. I could just as easily postulate an ancap society of 5 billion people with orbital lasers that are on standby 24/7, ready to fry every remaining communist on Earth the second they get out of line. See how silly that is?

The burden isn't on me to counter every one of your power fantasies with a bigger fantasy. The burden is on you to show a causal chain of how consistent recognition of objective property boundaries (shortened: "anarcho-capitalism") somehow results in a social order that is defined by regular systematic violation of those boundaries.
For instance, you said "slavery would be profitable" without showing how voluntary norms lead to a system that requires constant coercion to maintain. You claimed "slavery predates the state" without explaining how conquest and gangs aren't states already. You waved around "charisma" and "irrationality" without connecting that to institutions that sustainably enforce systematic aggression.

Until you can state that clearly and concisely, without fantasy roleplay, you don't have an argument. What you have is a hobby for writing power-fantasy fanfics
Like, if your only move is to imagine yourself as the final boss of history whom everyone inexplicably obeys, then you're not describing human society, you're daydreaming. Or leaking the script for the next Disney Star Wars movie. But neither of the two are an argument
 
Until you can state that clearly and concisely, without fantasy roleplay, you don't have an argument. What you have is a hobby for writing power-fantasy fanfics
You continually forget people have emotions and can act in unreasonable and irrational ways. We aren't interchangeable parts.

Someone with the right personality traits will attract people to them and if that leader desires oppression their people will make it happen. If you don't have the same charisma and draw you will lose and be conquered, even in your fantastical ancap society.
 
A bunch of neckbeards with Palmetto State and Holosun optics ain’t stopping even the Mexican military.
Against the Mexican military I'd say they'd have a chance. Maybe not on the offensive into Mexico but on the defensive they'd reap a heavy toll.
 
You continually forget people have emotions and can act in unreasonable and irrational ways. We aren't interchangeable parts.

Someone with the right personality traits will attract people to them and if that leader desires oppression their people will make it happen. If you don't have the same charisma and draw you will lose and be conquered, even in your fantastical ancap society.
"Charisma and draw" is just your latest cheat code. Yesterday it was infinite guns, tomorrow it'll be astrology. All you've done so far is pick a magic variable, give it to yourself, and then declare victory in your short fanfic.
What you still haven't shown is a causal chain of how a society of people who consistently respect property norms collapses into systematic property rights violations. You have not been explaining how voluntary institutions suddenly generate permanent institutions of slavery and conquest. You've merely hand-waved it with "emotions" and "charisma"

The kicker is that, if people can be swayed by irrational appeals, then they can also be swayed against them. If they can be rallied around a thug, then they can be rallied against him. If charisma is decisive, then so is counter-charisma. So you haven't really escaped the problem.

Stop with the hypotheticals in which you roll nothing but 20s and everyone else is an NPC. Show in a clear and concise manner how respecting property boundaries leads to permanent, systematic violation of those boundaries. If you prefer to write fanfiction of yourself as Stalin 2.0 instead, I kindly ask you to vacate the premises.
 
Against the Mexican military I'd say they'd have a chance. Maybe not on the offensive into Mexico but on the defensive they'd reap a heavy toll.
I feel the need to add that while the Mexican military most definitely has drones, as of this time they lack cruise missiles but have a lot of conventional artillery pieces.
 
If under your definition nobody knows whether a shopkeeper defending his store will be treated as lawful or criminal until the boot comes down, that is whim.
The law already operates this way because self-defense is notoriously difficult to prove.

If you insist on absolute certainty before declaring anything as knowledge, then you cannot "know" anything.

The moment they disrespect the boundaries of others, "groups with more powers" are states.
This weakens your position more than you understand. Such a broad definition of "state" renders the formation of states within your AnCap paradise even more of an inevitability. You just shifted your system from being "flawed and unstable" to "inherently self-obliterating."
 
Against the Mexican military I'd say they'd have a chance. Maybe not on the offensive into Mexico but on the defensive they'd reap a heavy toll.

No they wouldn’t. They’d be killed by 60USD drones and soldiers with Chinese thermal. The cartels like Jalisco New Generation would do that plus be killing peoples families on live leak.

Your average neckbeard with a PSA has a Baofeng he’s never programmed might as less learned to use in a team.

There’s militias in the US that have trained to be very dangerous. Ancaps are contrarian man children and their entire ideology is antithetical to forming a coherent militia.
 
The law already operates this way because self-defense is notoriously difficult to prove.
And you're saying that like it's a feature instead of a bug. That's not law, it's a downright pathology. If people have to wait until after defending their own life to find out whether they'll be treated as a criminal, you don't have rules, you have a trap. And shrugging and coping "that's just how it is", that doesn't make you wise, it makes you complicit. No wonder everyone's on antidepressants if their "law" works like Russian roulette.
If you insist on absolute certainty before declaring anything as knowledge, then you cannot "know" anything.
Don't hide behind "I've skimmed the table of contents"-level epistemology. I never said "absolute certainty". I said law exists to give people advance knowledge of what counts as legitimate action. There's a huge difference between "we can't be 100% sure the sun will rise tomorrow" and "we literally don't know if defending ourselves will be called lawful or criminal until the man with a badge flips a coin"
Such a broad definition of "state" renders the formation of states within your AnCap paradise even more of an inevitability.
No, I'm just calling things by their right name. If a gang conquers land and enforces systematic coercion, that's a state, whether you dress it in uniforms, constitutions, or mafioso titles. But identifying a pathology doesn't make it inevitable. By your logic, if I say "cancer is cells malfunctioning", then every cell is destined to become cancer. And that's absurd. The fact that we can recognize systematic aggression as "the state" doesn't prove it must exist forever, it merely proves it's something to be resisted instead of canonized.

So what's your deal anyway? Are you actually defending law or are you just defending fatalism? Because from my perspective, your stance boils down to "yes, law under the state is arbitrary and coercive, but since I can imagine it happening again, it must always happen everywhere".
 
Name one example.

If your militia has a Wikipedia page or a news article it’s been infiltrated by Feds. There’s quite a few groups full of GWOT vets that train and practice tactics. Almost all of them are “3%ers” and WN’s - none are AnCaps.
 
If your militia has a Wikipedia page or a news article it’s been infiltrated by Feds. There’s quite a few groups full of GWOT vets that train and practice tactics. Almost all of them are “3%ers” and WN’s - none are AnCaps.
That’s why I’m asking you to name some examples.
 
That’s why I’m asking you to name some examples.

I don’t name names. There’s plenty of groups in the US capable of being a problem until at least thermal drones and groups like BORTAC and HRT get deployed. Without fail these sort of groups have some sort of ideology that lolberts will dismiss as “collectivist”.

Ancaps are like herding cats - their inability to organize and die for a cause will (thankfully) guarantee their irrelevancy.
 
Property norms are not some inventions by a class of officials, they are objective conflict-avoidance principles that exist prior to any enforcement.
How are those objective conflict-avoidance principles for people who don't have as much property as they want? What large society has experienced the absence of conflict without enforced rules about property?

"Property norms" is no more an objective, inherent concept that results in a non-conflict society than "might makes right" - and it's demonstrably less stable than most systems, due to the absence of enforceable guardrails. To think contract rights are more persuasive than law enforcement is ludicrous. Some people also don't have anything to lose or dgaf about owning anything through negotiation. And how do you account for unequal bargaining power outcomes - everyone will be happy with a freely negotiated contract even if they're poor negotiators?

If all humans already had a harmony of interests and respected each other's boundaries all the time, then nobody would waste even a single second discussing notions like "law" and "rights" and "law enforcement" and "crime" and "transgression"
"If.". People don't have a harmony of interests, though, and many don't respect boundaries regardless of origin of the boundaries. People break contracts, large and small, and the absence of societal (legal) consequences removes all incentives for bad actors not to act bad.

Legal and political structures, done well, temper whim.

Spare me that nonsense. The penal code says one thing, enforcers do another, discretion overrides both, corruption and budgets distort all of it.
Your ideal is nothing but individual discretion. And the fact that corruption or ambiguity exists is not a mature basis on which to craft a belief, particularly not one that ignores real and consistent historic behavior in favor of a concept that thinks paper is persuasive for those who disregard paper.

The same exact thing that stops every other criminal. Resistance, coalition, and the financial reality of conflict.
Lol, tell that to any unprosecuted criminal. There's not going to be grand-scale "resistance" or "coalition" vs a petty criminal. Many people take whatever they can get. People dispositioned to violating other people aren't holding back from violating contracts. Why would they?

consistent recognition of objective property boundaries (shortened: "anarcho-capitalism")
people who consistently respect property norms
Your view is premised on "consistent" and "recognition" (which implies agreement/ acceptance) being the norm, and yet you've not shown that that consistent recognition occurs, nor that it particularly occurs in the absence of the rule of law.

Show in a clear and concise manner how respecting property boundaries leads to permanent, systematic violation of those boundaries.
Show in a clear and concise manner how people respect property boundaries in the absence of law.

Your earlier examples - arbitration, private security in gated communities - operate under the schematic of the rule of law. Arbitration has the force of law, and is at a minimum adjacent to it (most arbitration is based in law; perhaps you are thinking of mediation). I can't speak to your Icelandic example, but you did describe it as a "legal" order. As for "Merchant Law," if you mean"lex mercatoria" concepts from the Middle Ages, it's right there in the name, and it came about as a function of jurisdictional complexities and yes, a recognition of sovereign powers (states*). Violators were subject to confiscation of property. And it became considered common law, and has been further codified (see, commercial international law (which, btw, led to arbitration as a resolution mechanism, rather than lex mercatoria's decisionmaking "courts); or the UCC in the US, at least**).

*Yes, international law, which is mostly by agreement...but what are the wages of violation? Economic sanctions by pre- or considered agreement - or justification for war ("might"). International law is jus gentium, though not jus inter gentes - but it is still jus and informed contract interpretation...by at least quasi-judicial fora.

**Some may have disagreed, but the reality is that the UCC is a maturation of common law, which was a necessary maturation of law merchant.

A monopoly in the strict sense means a state grant of exclusive privilege. That's why it simply can't exist without a state. In the absence of such a privilege, it's true that a company can grow large, but it has no authority whatsoever to stop anyone from competing with it. All it can do is offer better prices or services, and surely that's not a bad thing from the point of view of the customer?
Do you even understand antitrust? Antitrust laws are aimed at mitigating commercial monopoly that stranglehold individuals. Yes, that varies by administrations' political perspectives, and yes, monopolistically-minded companies with significant power can conjure up plenty of justifying arguments, but they are trying to overcome legally prohibitive requirements, not access them.

It is, in healthier states, more state acquiescence to a company's resistance to law than state confirmation of it.
 
The kicker is that, if people can be swayed by irrational appeals, then they can also be swayed against them. If they can be rallied around a thug, then they can be rallied against him. If charisma is decisive, then so is counter-charisma. So you haven't really escaped the problem.
Good luck using your counter-charisma and rational arguments against General Butt Naked or Charles Taylor.
 
And you're saying that like it's a feature instead of a bug
I'm not saying anything is good or bad and I never was. You're falling into that is/ought trap again.

If people have to wait until after defending their own life to find out whether they'll be treated as a criminal, you don't have rules, you have a trap.
If you're in a situation where you have to defend your life and the legality of doing so crosses your mind, them I don't know what to tell you other than you're suicidally subservient.

There's a huge difference between "we can't be 100% sure the sun will rise tomorrow" and "we literally don't know if defending ourselves will be called lawful or criminal until the man with a badge flips a coin"
I agree. It's you that's making the conflation here. You'll seldom find yourself in an environment where you're legally obligated to let yourself be murdered regardless of who the authorities are. Not to mention prison is typically better than death anyway.
Conclusion: defend yourself if necessary. Worry about prosecution later. Common fucking sense.

If a gang conquers land and enforces systematic coercion, that's a state,
I agree.

But identifying a pathology doesn't make it inevitable. By your logic, if I say "cancer is cells malfunctioning", then every cell is destined to become cancer
Wrong. But if your body does nothing to prevent the establishment and spread of cancer, then its swift takeover is inevitable.

The fact that we can recognize systematic aggression as "the state" doesn't prove it must exist forever, it merely proves it's something to be resisted instead of canonized.
And without an organized force to resist it, it will go unresisted. 5 guys with a common goal can easily impose their will on 20 independent actors.
In the absence of a unified power structure, one will form to fill the void. It's literally how the first civilizations in history formed in multiple places throughout the world independently. Once the tech that allowed for rigid hierarchies to exist was discovered, the first thing people did was establish them.

So what's your deal anyway? Are you actually defending law or are you just defending fatalism?
I'm not saying anything is good or bad here. What part of that can't you get through your head? What I'm saying is, without appealing to any particular moral framework, then the only "objective" feature of the law is that it defines what does and doesn't incur punishment within a society.
You repeatedly evoking some kind of "natural order" to justify "law" beyond whatever the dominant power structure is imposing is just moralizing no matter how oblivious you are to that fact.
 
A few classics:

1. who would build the roads?

2a. how would immigration and "borders" be handled?
2b. If immigration were allowed, would it nevertheless still be permissible to enforce ethnic homogeneity over certain areas?

3. should parents have a legal obligation to feed, clothe, or educate their children?

4. what's the difference between anarcho capitalism and leftwing anarchists, like ancoms?
 
Basically, anarcho-capitalism is reliant on the existence of a homo novo that has a uniform ideology and acceptance of a foundational concept, otherwise it will be unstable. Just like communism, another boring utopian fantasy based on "but if everyone would just agree on this ideology perfectly, it'll all be great!".
Why bother arguing about it? Just like "fetch", it's not going to happen, Gretchen.
 
Back
Top Bottom