Opinion Against ‘Progress’

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Against ‘Progress’​

One sometimes hears, even from others on the conservative side of the political spectrum, that the past wasn’t really better than the present. After all, they say, look at how much we have gained through progress. Our lives are longer, our health care better, our food more plentiful and safer, the number of conveniences in our everyday lives are uncountable in their great quantity.

And, this argument typically continues, we must remember that alongside any virtues we might recognize in the past came a lot more suffering and pain.

Let’s look seriously at this argument.

First, it is not clear just how much suffering we are talking about when we discuss the past. We do not, after all, have much in the way of an empirical record of the everyday experience and psychological state of the typical member of a society in, say, the Middle Ages. Only elites in that time were literate and left written accounts of their experiences. The illiterate masses left no written accounts of their daily lives. Yet we have other evidence of their condition, and the unrelenting misery we assume was their lot appears to be an exaggeration on our part.

For example, the Inquisition left us something close to ethnographic reports of some French villages in the late 13th century, which are preserved today as a set of records called the Fournier Register. The historian Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie used these records to produce his magisterial book, Montaillou,which documented the history of a medieval French village of the same name. The attitude of the itinerant shepherds in the area, who were among the materially most impoverished, is described by Ladurie as “easy-going, often friendly.” He gives an account of the town’s inhabitants’ “convivial evenings … devoted to words rather than wine … The peasants … were connoisseurs of eloquence, even if they were no great orators themselves.”

There was significant respect for the rights and property of others, and a broad neighborliness as a moral baseline. Crimes of property were rare in a community where all knew all, and murder too was quite uncommon. Socializing involving music, dance, and prayer was an important part of their daily lives, and love in both its ideal and carnal forms was a constant feature of their interactions. They enjoyed midday naps, and they turned full workdays into half days whenever material necessity permitted. Ladurie speculates that “it may be that the people of Montaillou wept slightly more easily than we do, both in happiness and in sorrow.” And what is more human than tears?

Romanticization, of course, is to be avoided here. The people of Montaillou bathed infrequently, and they suffered for this unhygienic regime. They spent time mutually picking the lice off one another’s scalps and bodies. Yet even this behavior, which we might see with disgust, having never had to do it, is part of the social bond of reciprocity and exchange that linked them. Indeed, Ladurie describes it as “an ingredient of friendship … [that] impl[ied] relations of kinship or alliance.” We can see the sociality of the act still today in our primate relatives who have not yet invented soap and insect repellant.

If romanticization is a potential pitfall in my endeavor here, I respond that my opponents must take the same care with the tendency we moderns have to imagine that everyone who didn’t have a hot water shower in their home must have lived a life of intolerable suffering. It is only by historical presentism that we assume a lack of fulfillment among those of the past who lacked jet airplanes, antibiotics, and mail-in ballots (and even representative democracy!).

Peasant labor was terribly hard, it is undeniable. But the people in Ladurie’s narrative got to watch kings and queens walk the earth, and they believed those kings and queens were the elect of God. What do we have to compare to that? Watching LeBron on television score 20 points in the 4th quarter, or sitting en masse to watch Taylor Swift prance around on a stage and caterwaul in the distance?

I think they had it better.

And just what have we gained on them that is not narrowly technological? I pose this as a deadly serious question. Even what seems the most obvious advance—greater average longevity—must be properly understood. For what exactly does the average contemporary American do with the additional decades of life today? They use that time mostly to watch more vapid television and to listen to more contemporary “music” that consists of the endless repetition of the same two-note bass line and lyrics about revenge shootings and the actions of genitalia. They also play more hours of mindless video games on their phones. They drink many more sugar-filled drinks and eat much more carbohydrate-dense food, and because of this activity many of them pass the extra years they have taking many medications to keep their diabetes and the other pathologies created by their lifestyles (mostly) at bay.

On what grounds, then, do we consider such lives more fulfilled and human than those of the peasants depicted in Jean-François Millet’s painting The Angelus, who humbly pray in their potato fields the prayer that marks the conclusion of the workday? Yes, the Millet is just a painting, but Ladurie and other evidence suggests to us that it was inspired by people who really existed.

Those people of the past lived without all the technological advances we have, and yet they still built Notre-Dame and invented plainchant and designed and constructed vessels that made it all the way around the world driven by nothing but the power of the wind. Yes, we’ve been to the Moon. I do not think, however, I am the only person who finds Notre Dame and plainchant more moving inventions than a video of astronauts bouncing around on the Moon’s surface.

Even with our technological advantages, we are still outflanked on all sides by the same world that presented obstacles to our ancestors. The weather alone is a constant source of trouble to us. I was in Clearwater Beach this summer just a little over a week before a hurricane hit and flooded the restaurants and stores in which I had only just dined and shopped. Cities and many of the people living in them disappear in earthquakes in the news regularly. Much of what the natural world does to try to devour us remains largely beyond our control. Our antibiotics are, as we speak, being outmoded by microbes. Children still die of cancer, and that can reliably be expected to continue. In fact, more die of it now than did previously because of all the carcinogenic waste modernity has pumped throughout the environment. And now children die too in new ways those in the Middle Ages could not have imagined—e.g., in auto accidents, from bacteria in their mass-produced food, via insane school shooters, and by the industrial efficiency of modern medicalized abortion.

Few of us perhaps would willingly trade places with someone living without the advantage of antibiotics. But if we had lived in a world without antibiotics, we would never have known what a handy thing they are to have. Somehow, humans in the world before antibiotics developed ways to cope with the inevitability of loss—and note well, this inevitability is for them and for us. And as part of what many misunderstand as our progress, we are in the process of trying to dismantle the main institution—religion—that did that healing work for our forebears, in our foolish confidence that we have outgrown such benighted ways.
 
I agree with the article's sentiment, Current Year sucks ass. But I would not want to go back to medieval times just to get back a cultural identity and sense of community. I would rather go back to the 40s or 50s America.

I agree. That's why I said I'd happily go back to the 40s or 50s. They had a lot of the advancements we do today, at least the important ones like antibiotics and such, but American society was still intact and most Americans were patriotic, decent people. Our government hadn't been completely fucked by traitors who happily sell our people out for power and corporate/foreign money. Our media and entertainment industries hadn't yet given themselves over to total nigger and tranny worship. Our cities weren't yet overrun with worthless homeless people, illegal aliens, and criminals.
The 1950s nuclear family is the ideal in the modern age. That's why the left intentionally derides it. It had issues, all eras do, no period is perfect. Racism, domestic abuse, etc, but progs take these facts and show it as proof that the entire era and its ideals were evil and worth destroying. In the process all they have done is permanently destroy the possibility of a black nuclear family and created a generation of fatherless joggers who only know gibz and rap.
 
There's no reason to go back centuries when just 30 or 40 years would have given most people a reasonably higher standard of living if they really worked at it. Things were still sliding to shit, but at least you had insurance, your son hadn't been transformed into the masturbator from Pearl Jam's "Evolution" video, and grown women weren't trying to turn your 13 year old daughter into a literal whore.
 
Odin's fucking bloody eyesocket, I've never wanted to hold down the author an article and savagely beat them until they stopped making stupid sounds... And then keep beating them some more, for good measure... more than I do right now.

First, it is not clear just how much suffering we are talking about when we discuss the past. We do not, after all, have much in the way of an empirical record of the everyday experience and psychological state of the typical member of a society in, say, the Middle Ages. Only elites in that time were literate and left written accounts of their experiences. The illiterate masses left no written accounts of their daily lives. Yet we have other evidence of their condition, and the unrelenting misery we assume was their lot appears to be an exaggeration on our part.

For example, the Inquisition left us something close to ethnographic reports of some French villages in the late 13th century, which are preserved today as a set of records called the Fournier Register. The historian Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie used these records to produce his magisterial book, Montaillou,which documented the history of a medieval French village of the same name. The attitude of the itinerant shepherds in the area, who were among the materially most impoverished, is described by Ladurie as “easy-going, often friendly.” He gives an account of the town’s inhabitants’ “convivial evenings … devoted to words rather than wine … The peasants … were connoisseurs of eloquence, even if they were no great orators themselves.”

Do you know what that phrase means, you cockgoblin? To say that they were "connoisseurs of eloquence, even if they were no great orators themselves"? It's an elite (IE, educated and literate) person finding it quaint that the simple country bumpkins liked to pretend at being erudite.

Well, that's one possible reading of it. The other is that he's basically saying, in the very eloquent, circumspect way of writing that was common at the time, that they were a bunch of ignorant rabble who liked to blather on.

Romanticization, of course, is to be avoided here. The people of Montaillou bathed infrequently, and they suffered for this unhygienic regime. They spent time mutually picking the lice off one another’s scalps and bodies. Yet even this behavior, which we might see with disgust, having never had to do it, is part of the social bond of reciprocity and exchange that linked them. Indeed, Ladurie describes it as “an ingredient of friendship … [that] impl[ied] relations of kinship or alliance.” We can see the sociality of the act still today in our primate relatives who have not yet invented soap and insect repellant.

Yeah, it's an "ingredient of friendship", because it was a fucking miserable life and it took a degree of communalism to even survive. You know, you say in the first sentence of the paragraph, "romanticization, of course, is to be avoided", and then you proceed to romanticize the shit out of being filthy and vermin-infested.

I promise you, if you could tell any one of those people "I can make it so you never have to deal with lice again, but you might be 5% less invested in your community", every single one of them would take it. And call you an idiot if you suggested they were better off.

They didn't know any different, that's just what life was at the time, but they weren't stupid.

If romanticization is a potential pitfall in my endeavor here, I respond that my opponents must take the same care with the tendency we moderns have to imagine that everyone who didn’t have a hot water shower in their home must have lived a life of intolerable suffering. It is only by historical presentism that we assume a lack of fulfillment among those of the past who lacked jet airplanes, antibiotics, and mail-in ballots (and even representative democracy!).

Go. Fuck. Yourself. With. A Brick.

For someone who keeps talking about "romanticization" being a downfall to avoid, you're really fucking ignorant of how life actually was back then. Whether it's by intention or just simple stupidity, I don't know.

"Didn't have a hot water shower in their home". I repeat, brick, fuck yourself, etc. How about being freezing cold in the winter, because even the best houses were poorly insulated and heating tended to be fireplaces or braziers. Having to work for weeks to lay in enough firewood to last you through the winter. Having to live off whatever food you managed to store before winter began, because the land was dead, and pray you had enough. Your food spoiling, but having to eat it anyway because that's what there was and it was better than starving. Having to live in houses that stank of soot or burning oil... And those if you were lucky. Nothing resembling modern plumbing, at all. Water sources that were, varyingly, fickle and unreliable, unclean, involved a lot of manual work, or a combination of all of the above. Shitting in a hole in the ground, or in a bucket beside your bed if it was too cold or nasty out to get to the hole in the ground.

I could keep going on like this for a long time. Get the fuck out of here with your "oh boo hoo you didn't have hot showers" shit.

Peasant labor was terribly hard, it is undeniable. But the people in Ladurie’s narrative got to watch kings and queens walk the earth, and they believed those kings and queens were the elect of God. What do we have to compare to that? Watching LeBron on television score 20 points in the 4th quarter, or sitting en masse to watch Taylor Swift prance around on a stage and caterwaul in the distance?

I think they had it better.

Actually most people never got to see a king or queen. Think how little royalty interacts with the common man today, and then imagine it without the news media to shove them in your face.

And at best you're making an argument that the kings and queens were better than modern celebrities because they had built up their own mythos that they were divinely chosen, and the ignorant masses bought into it to keep them from rising up.

You're celebrating people being ignorant sheep.

And just what have we gained on them that is not narrowly technological? I pose this as a deadly serious question. Even what seems the most obvious advance—greater average longevity—must be properly understood. For what exactly does the average contemporary American do with the additional decades of life today? They use that time mostly to watch more vapid television and to listen to more contemporary “music” that consists of the endless repetition of the same two-note bass line and lyrics about revenge shootings and the actions of genitalia. They also play more hours of mindless video games on their phones. They drink many more sugar-filled drinks and eat much more carbohydrate-dense food, and because of this activity many of them pass the extra years they have taking many medications to keep their diabetes and the other pathologies created by their lifestyles (mostly) at bay.

You know all those are options, right? If a person wants to eat Doritos and play Fortnight until they turn into a blob and die at 35 of a heart attack, they can. It's an option. They also could become Amish and live a simple, hard, but potentially rewarding life in line with the romantic bullshit you want to push. That is also an option. People today have options. People back then, didn't. Life was what it was.

Those people of the past lived without all the technological advances we have, and yet they still built Notre-Dame and invented plainchant and designed and constructed vessels that made it all the way around the world driven by nothing but the power of the wind. Yes, we’ve been to the Moon. I do not think, however, I am the only person who finds Notre Dame and plainchant more moving inventions than a video of astronauts bouncing around on the Moon’s surface.

The average person didn't benefit from Notre-Dame. 99.9% of people never would even see it.

And it's not my fault you have no sense of actual wonder at life.

Even with our technological advantages, we are still outflanked on all sides by the same world that presented obstacles to our ancestors. The weather alone is a constant source of trouble to us. I was in Clearwater Beach this summer just a little over a week before a hurricane hit and flooded the restaurants and stores in which I had only just dined and shopped. Cities and many of the people living in them disappear in earthquakes in the news regularly. Much of what the natural world does to try to devour us remains largely beyond our control.

Yes, "weather" still exists, you fucking cumdumpster. But now we're less at it's mercy. We can predict it better, we can shield ourselves from it better, we can recover from it's ravages easier.

Our antibiotics are, as we speak, being outmoded by microbes. Children still die of cancer, and that can reliably be expected to continue. In fact, more die of it now than did previously because of all the carcinogenic waste modernity has pumped throughout the environment.

I'd like to see some reliable statistics on cancer deaths in the middle ages, please.

But even setting that aside, your argument boils down to "it's not perfect now, so it couldn't possibly have been much worse back then".

Are you proud of being that big of a moron?

And now children die too in new ways those in the Middle Ages could not have imagined—e.g., in auto accidents, from bacteria in their mass-produced food, via insane school shooters, and by the industrial efficiency of modern medicalized abortion.

And you know what ways they don't die, in the western world? They don't starve to death in the winter, or freeze to death, or die of easily treatable diseases... Dysentery, pneumonia, the flu, measles, smallpox, cholera... I could go on.

Do you know how fucking panicky you got (I imagine, since you're a faggot) over Covid? Imagine how bad covid got... Now make it about 50 times worse... And then make it happen every winter. Everyone lost people in the winter they knew. Winters killed people in large numbers. Particularly children.


Few of us perhaps would willingly trade places with someone living without the advantage of antibiotics. But if we had lived in a world without antibiotics, we would never have known what a handy thing they are to have. Somehow, humans in the world before antibiotics developed ways to cope with the inevitability of loss—and note well, this inevitability is for them and for us.

Yes, congratulations, you've artfully recognized that people cope with hardship. Because we don't really have a choice. It's cope or lay down and die. And humanity has a hell of a self-preservation drive.

And as part of what many misunderstand as our progress, we are in the process of trying to dismantle the main institution—religion—that did that healing work for our forebears, in our foolish confidence that we have outgrown such benighted ways.

Fuck you and your "misunderstanding". Just, fuck yourself. Seriously, put up or shut up, get off your Macbook, leave Starbucks, go find an Amish woman to marry and renounce the sinful world you so detest, or shut the fuck up. You goddamned insufferable hypocrite.
 
The grass is always greener. The past seemed like a"simple time" without need for complicated things life was therefore more enjoyable. The future where all your needs are met by science and life is all about giving you the free time to do whatever you like.

The only progress that scares the shit out of me is being "woke", we've regressed as society to children incapable of having independent thought simply denying truth and science. In a woke society lets say we have a specific social problem, is the problem caused by a minority or other vulnerable identity? Well then it's not a problem and in fact your racist for calling it a problem and it's probably your fault if there is a "problem" at all.
 
The 1950s nuclear family is the ideal in the modern age. That's why the left intentionally derides it. It had issues, all eras do, no period is perfect. Racism, domestic abuse, etc, but progs take these facts and show it as proof that the entire era and its ideals were evil and worth destroying. In the process all they have done is permanently destroy the possibility of a black nuclear family and created a generation of fatherless joggers who only know gibz and rap.

I agree with you, except the racism part. I think racism is healthy and even needed to protect cultural purity. Look what happened when we ended racism: illegal aliens flowing over the borders, millions of people in the US who can't even communicate with the citizens who live there, one minority group who accounts for over 50% of all crime statistics despite numbering only 13% of the population. Look what "ending racism" has done to Europe. Humans are naturally tribal, and its a natural instinct we should embrace to keep our cultures distinct and protected.
 
I agree with you, except the racism part. I think racism is healthy and even needed to protect cultural purity. Look what happened when we ended racism: illegal aliens flowing over the borders, millions of people in the US who can't even communicate with the citizens who live there, one minority group who accounts for over 50% of all crime statistics despite numbering only 13% of the population. Look what "ending racism" has done to Europe. Humans are naturally tribal, and its a natural instinct we should embrace to keep our cultures distinct and protected.

Well this thread is about "progress" so I guess this rant is appropriate.

Racism is a personal belief, our beliefs are a result of our life experiences and observations. The exception is the child who was raised in a "racist household", despite what the media tells you this really does not exist anymore, the only racist households in any real numbers in the U.S. are black family's preaching black supremacy, Latin families preaching "La Raza". Being mad at someone for being racist is like being mad at someone who hates broccoli, he probably hates broccoli because ever single time he has an encounter with it, he chokes on it, people at dinner try to shove it in his face despite politely declining it. I was raised in blue state, in a blue city, in a public school by literal retired hippies. My father never liked me dropping the N bomb, what happened to me? I took a series of careers working all over the city, including the inner city I got treated like absolute fucking garbage by niggers, counterfeit currency, assault, battery, being spit on, called 101 names, and a whole lot of just "fuck you white man", racism. My business associates were treated the exact same way, even ones who were obviously not white, robbed, beaten, insulted just the same by niggers. It got to the point where certian zip codes I just didn't service anymore, I had to come up with different policies and procedures dealing with niggers otherwise I would be in danger or just robbed. At 2 am, you get called out by nigger to provide emergency assistance, requested you come out and bail them out of a bad situation, a situation they directly caused even if you are not robbed or attacked when it comes time to pay you for your effort they will regard you as literally stealing from them %95 of the time. I am no longer honest with black people if I can resolve their problem quickly, I will pretend to work and struggle for sometimes up to 45 minutes simply because if it looked too easy they will refuse to pay you. To a lesser extent I have problems with people of latin decent, they will very often fall back on a language barrier if they do not like what you tell them, if they need to cancel service %50 of the time they will just block your number have you arrive on scene and look for them for 20 minutes as opposed to simply texting "we don't need you anymore". I get a lot of accusations of racism from them as well, accusing me of taking advantage of them after giving them an exact price over the phone hours before even arriving and starting to work. One old fucker litterally screamed at me for 20 minutes about "white privilege" all the while telling his wife? "shut up woman, men are talking" when she tried to explain to him I gave the same exact price over the phone hours previous to even showing up. In the city I live in car registration, insurance and a valid drivers license have all become a "white tax" inner city niggers never register the cars they buy, if they get a camera-ticket that's a problem for the guy who sold them the car and never took the plates off. They don't bother with insurance either as the local PD has been told to stand down regarding towing cars of unlicensed uninsured unregistered drivers. Illegals also never bother with these things, it soon became also a "Mexican thing" no DL no reg no insurance. What do yo do if you are hit by an uninsured driver? unless you pay extra for uninsured driver collision coverage you are paying out of pocket to fix your car. Ergo all these things including extra insurance are only paid for by white people.
 
They probably enjoyed mid day naps because they were both drunk, as alcoholic beverages were safer than water, and they were tired from back breaking work in the hot environment
Na, they weren't drunk. Most beer back then topped out at about 3% or 2.5% ABV and your body can process that about as fast as it comes in. The relative lack of fermentation also meant it was thicker and richer than it is now, so it doubled as sustenance, which is important when you're engaged in backbreaking labor from sunup to sundown. Wine was also much weaker than it is now. Your average college student probably consumes in a single night what a peasant did in a month.
Nothing like relief from back breaking labor. Imagine how they would be with a steel plow or even better nitrogen fertilizer.
Let me go quote John Galt from Atlas Shrugged:
"Who has truly conquered the material realm? Is it the yogi who slowly starves to death in a cave meditating, or the farmer who uses a tractor and plow to break the soil to his will?"
 
It's threads and conversations like these, especially posts like @Troon_Patrol that make me thankful to be part of a group who "gets it" and to be able to openly discuss this shit. I love my job, but sadly a there are a few Woketards in policy making positions in my company and I'd likely lose my job if I didn't hold my tongue at work. My job brings me around a lot of the worthless, no-class filth of society. Homeless, illegals, shit skins, white trash, and criminals. If I didn't have the Farms and you guys to vent to, I don't know how I'd handle it. This place is special.
 
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