Ace Attorney

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Shit man I would pay for a black quill/Athena game. People shit on their segment in spirit of justice but It actually was a big highlight for me. Their whole arc was gold in my opinion.
It's good, though I think what a lot of people had gripes about it is that it's inconsequential and takes up a case slot, unlike Trucy's case where at least it ties back to the Gramaryes and RDJ's hateboner for them.

Which isn't really new for AA, it always had filler cases, but clearly there were different expectations out of SoJ with its new setting.
 
A lot of AA-like games don't understand that giving the player multiple days of court proceedings and exploration builds up the characters and world. Yeah the court is the emotional and gameplay climax but if you don't have enough context it doesn't work as well.
A lot of the actual AA games have that issue as of late. Out of the 15 cases (I'm counting DGS2-4 and DGS2-5 as one case) in both Chronicles games and SoJ, only 5 of them have cases that have more than just one investigation (I would not count SoJ-5 as having two since they're totally different murders, locations, and casts.)

Rite of Turnabout is considered one of the best SoJ cases generally (it's my favorite of that game, actually) and I think a large part of that is because it's two days and the characters really get to shine because of that. You get to see the way the first trial changed how they interact with Phoenix, and that's really cool. Datz is now non-amnesiac, Rayfa is insufferably smug but really entertaining at having 'beat' Phoenix, and... Well, it's been a while since I've played it, but off the top of my head I'm pretty sure Maya and Ema would get some good moments with Phoenix in that situation.

When the trials are just one day, it really makes the characters feel like they only exist within their role in the case. Like 6-2. Betty and Bonny have a fun dynamic, but the moment the culprit is named, they go away forever. How do they feel now that their secret is out? How do they feel that a lawyer of all people managed to expose it? What did Betty think when she realized she was used by the culprit? No clue, because they basically evaporate once they deliver the twist of them being twins to the player. Lots of character moments that could be had that, while they wouldn't contribute much to the mechanics of the case, would still make the world and cast seem fuller.

Elite Beat Agents style except with an asshole as the Agent.
Am I correct that you, too, remember the AA/Osu fan level?

I think the issue is that Capcom prioritizes making a spectacle out of finding contradictions or dare i say "hype moments and aura" over logic or mechanical depth.
The issue I have with these more nebulous means of deduction (bracelet, mood matrix, chess to an extent) is that yeah, they're more about creating cool moments and shocking twists. Ace Attorney wasn't really a fair play mystery game in the strictest sense of the term, but it definitely let players figure out a lot of the case ahead of time with just the evidence and statements if they were clever. The bracelet and mood matrix are used generally to deliver twists and moments that don't use evidence and aren't conveyed to the player ahead of time. Yes, I know you usually have to present proof to back-up the speculation derived from these mechanics, but they're still leaps in logic that are impossible for the player to come to without these mechanics/with just the writing and evidence they've received. It's more shocking, sure, but it also makes everything feel a lot less organic since, for instance, you really could not intuit that Robin was a girl until Athena/the mood matrix (and by extension, the writers) decided it was time for the player to come to that conclusion.
 
Blackquill is a shitty knockoff Godot with a splash of Lang thrown in. Pretty sure one of Lang's early concepts was that he was a prisoner too. He's a scary stoic psychopath but also a playful witty bantzlord but also an honorable prosecutor who respects his opponents that is also maliciously manipulative who belittles them. He's all the cool things, like poochie .

He feels like the most bootleg, OC donut fanfiction character in these games (besides Dhurke). Atleast Nepalese Edgeworth has character development, the weaboo's big plot reveal was that he was ackshually a honorobu samurai all along who dindu nuffin. Even him being a weaboo is an unintentional dubism, since he is literally just a samurai dude in Japanese.
When the trials are just one day,
One day trials were fine in GAA1. GAA2 backpedaling to 2 day trials had a terrible knockon effect of neutering the Judicial review mechanic, since now they had to crowbar in breaks for the trials for a 2nd investigation, but the Judicial review itself was mainly utilized to prolong the trials in lieu of a 2nd day investigation and lead to another set of cross-examinations. The investigations themselves were given a cross-examination caliber gameplay sequence in the dances of deduction, which is why they made an entire case without cross-exams to introduce it.

SoJ was just being creatively bankrupt though, the 2nd case was Yamazaki aping what Takumi did in GAA without any of the substance so it made the case a wet fart. And the 4th case was a retardedly nonsensical callback to 3-4, which was a short trial in T&T before the big finale. Problem is, 3-4 was a prologue to the final case while 6-4 is pointless filler.
 
Blackquill is a shitty knockoff Godot with a splash of Lang thrown in. Pretty sure one of Lang's early concepts was that he was a prisoner too. He's a scary stoic psychopath but also a playful witty bantzlord but also an honorable prosecutor who respects his opponents that is also maliciously manipulative who belittles them. He's all the cool things, like poochie .

He feels like the most bootleg, OC donut fanfiction character in these games (besides Dhurke). Atleast Nepalese Edgeworth has character development, the weaboo's big plot reveal was that he was ackshually a honorobu samurai all along who dindu nuffin. Even him being a weaboo is an unintentional dubism, since he is literally just a samurai dude in Japanese.

One day trials were fine in GAA1. GAA2 backpedaling to 2 day trials had a terrible knockon effect of neutering the Judicial review mechanic, since now they had to crowbar in breaks for the trials for a 2nd investigation, but the Judicial review itself was mainly utilized to prolong the trials in lieu of a 2nd day investigation and lead to another set of cross-examinations. The investigations themselves were given a cross-examination caliber gameplay sequence in the dances of deduction, which is why they made an entire case without cross-exams to introduce it.

SoJ was just being creatively bankrupt though, the 2nd case was Yamazaki aping what Takumi did in GAA without any of the substance so it made the case a wet fart. And the 4th case was a retardedly nonsensical callback to 3-4, which was a short trial in T&T before the big finale. Problem is, 3-4 was a prologue to the final case while 6-4 is pointless filler.
I don't even remember any of the prosecutors besides the original trilogy and the Britain spinoff one. Crazy how little impact they left.

The original trilogy was a lightning in a bottle.
 
I think CAPCOM saw too many "rise from ashes is 80% of the first game" memes and thought one single case having 3 trials cases are cancer, when those things don't have to be related.

The thing is, cases got way more bloated and time wasteful over time, to the point of absurdity.

I searched a watched a youtube lets play to compare the first case of AA 1 and TGAA 2 and i kid you not, they solved the first case before great ace attorney started the first cross examination. One can say it was just a tutorial sure but it's crazy how one tutorial is 30~ minutes and the other is 3+ hours.

TGAA-1-1 is also around the same lenght of 3~ hours for a simple case. Fun fact, Great Ace Attorney has single day trials for 4 cases and one case with... no trial. And yet the final case can easily hit +10 hours and is longer than rise to ashes. Can you imagine if this case had 2 or even 3 trials? The sequel changed in response and split the final case in 2.

3 day trials can also lead to a day wasted on red herrings or retarded witnesses. The first trial of turnabout samurai for example was literally old bag making shit up until phoenix points out she would be a suspect and she admits they told her to lie about other people being there.

What i mean is that it's not inherently better or worse, they just need to write that shit better.. Or maybe rework the system, maybe have an intermission with no case if you just want to drop a bunch of story at once.

The issue I have with these more nebulous means of deduction (bracelet, mood matrix, chess to an extent) is that yeah, they're more about creating cool moments and shocking twists. Ace Attorney wasn't really a fair play mystery game in the strictest sense of the term, but it definitely let players figure out a lot of the case ahead of time with just the evidence and statements if they were clever. The bracelet and mood matrix are used generally to deliver twists and moments that don't use evidence and aren't conveyed to the player ahead of time. Yes, I know you usually have to present proof to back-up the speculation derived from these mechanics, but they're still leaps in logic that are impossible for the player to come to without these mechanics/with just the writing and evidence they've received. It's more shocking, sure, but it also makes everything feel a lot less organic since, for instance, you really could not intuit that Robin was a girl until Athena/the mood matrix (and by extension, the writers) decided it was time for the player to come to that conclusion.

It's kinda of the point of them, but create a circular problem. You basically have to make someone lie in a way that can't be discovered without borderline magic, which in turn leads to warping the plot and characters to justify it.

Why does scuttlebutt wear a box? So apolo can perceive through it! Why does robin hide the fact she is a girl? So Athena can reveal she likes dresses = girl! So much hype, so much aura!

We might as well make a lawyer that uses tarot cards to guess if the enemy is lying and you must play a memory minigame.

I don't even remember any of the prosecutors besides the original trilogy and the Britain spinoff one. Crazy how little impact they left.

The original trilogy was a lightning in a bottle.

It's because all 4-5-6 prosecutors get sandbagged ultra hard.

They expect Klavier to be carried by his art and animation while he has nothing to do with Apollo (who is barely the protag of his own game) and had garbage cases where the only thing people remember is the guitar solo and german. In the next game klavier is only in a joke trial and in spirit of justice he is a background examination cameo. This guy was supposed to be apollo's rival btw.

Dual Destinies has Simon who is 3d and showcases the handcuff physics, He's a really good balance of edgy, cool and funny, managing to be an honest rival who is still antagonistic. That said, his ties to athena aren't explored much until late and he's replaced in the final case by... Edgeworth VS Phoenix again. It doesn't even make much sense when Klavier was right there. It could've been the 2 people who started the dark age of law finally having the rematch that ends it but nope, it's edgeworth again. SoJ Simon doesn't even prosecute and only plays assistant to Athena in one case that has no exploration, a single trial and mocked as literal circus filler.

Spirit of Justice brings nahyuta who is argueably the most hated prosecutor ever. His gimmick "spiritually zen but i fucking hate you yadayada" is unfunny, has zero depth and worse of all he's boring. It's only near the end that he gets a freudian excuse but guess what, he's replaced too except this time by phoenix (so we can have a contrived student vs mentor battle via recycling a previous plot) and the final boss. He never develops oncreen or lives to his potential as apollo's rival and brother.

Capcom didn't even try with them.
 
Dual Destinies has Simon who is 3d and showcases the handcuff physics, He's a really good balance of edgy, cool and funny, managing to be an honest rival who is still antagonistic. That said, his ties to athena aren't explored much until late and he's replaced in the final case by... Edgeworth VS Phoenix again. It doesn't even make much sense when Klavier was right there. It could've been the 2 people who started the dark age of law finally having the rematch that ends it but nope, it's edgeworth again. SoJ Simon doesn't even prosecute and only plays assistant to Athena in one case that has no exploration, a single trial and mocked as literal circus filler.
Simon is the final prosecutor. Edgeworth’s period is essentially the trial on Simon himself; once the attention turns to Athena, Simon takes over again.
 
Happy Hitler Day, and happy Turnabout Trump day!
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I've been so excited to see this day come. Seven goddamn years. It's a shame Pablo09042 might not be around for it, though...

At least we have Lawfuldickish:
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