Ace Attorney

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Apollo Justice is easily the worst mainline game
Is a dog shit take after the duology of flaming garbage that followed it. All your bulletpoints being substanceless seething is a bonus.
That's what bothers me the most

The 2nd Edgeworth game takes place way before Apollo Justice, and considering his goal at the end was to fix the prosecution side and make sure it doesn't get corrupt again, one would think he would have been all over the forgery incident like flies to shit. That alone leaves a gigantic plothole.
Half-baked garbage made by B team shitter makes no sense? Who could have seen that one. Certainly not a trend with all 4 of Yamazaki's games.
Edgeworth were the more interesting characters
Edgeworth hasn't been interesting since T&T. The spinoff flanderized him to shit and the 3D games he's basically cardboard cutout of his Trilogy self.

And Wright was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more interesting as Punished Hobo.
 
That's what bothers me the most

The 2nd Edgeworth game takes place way before Apollo Justice, and considering his goal at the end was to fix the prosecution side and make sure it doesn't get corrupt again, one would think he would have been all over the forgery incident like flies to shit. That alone leaves a gigantic plothole.
Hell, Justice for All shows that Edgeworth could've fixed things with one phone call, or at the very least, have bought them enough time to figure out what was really going on.
 
Hell, Justice for All shows that Edgeworth could've fixed things with one phone call, or at the very least, have bought them enough time to figure out what was really going on.
Amazing storytelling this. Fuck having intruiging stories and mysteries, heckin' Edgewortherino should've solved everything.
 
Amazing storytelling this. Fuck having intruiging stories and mysteries, heckin' Edgewortherino should've solved everything.
I mean your argument is invalid when it’s publicly known Phoenix was never meant to be in Apollo Justice and was shoehorned in by Capcom’s request. Apollo Justice was meant to be its own story without ties into the original trilogy until Capcom insisted on Phoenix getting in the game. Takumi also had to put the Jury System in the story due to the changes to Japan’s legal system at the time.

Not to mention Phoenix’s reason for getting his ass disbarred happened because he became a retarded jackass whose an asshole to everybody such as openly being a dick to Klavier/Gumshoe, would take random evidence from children he doesn’t know without question, and when cornered about the forgery, he just gives up right away instead of trying to defend himself or getting help from anyone else.

Reminder Phoenix is the same guy who early in his lawyer career was accused of murder (Redd White case btw to avoid confusion with the tutorial case in TT) and even with the odds stacked against him, he would defend himself. This was in the first game and he had dealt with things more dangerous to his wellbeing since then. So him quitting comes across as entirely out of character.

This only makes sense if Hobo Phoenix was meant to be some other guy instead of Phoenix Wright.

If Hobo Phoenix was not Phoenix, but a new guy, everything about his character would make more sense. Since if it was a regular cocky defense attorney in Phoenix’s position, all this stuff could reasonably happen and would lack the bravery Phoenix had or his connections.
 
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I mean your argument is invalid when it’s publicly known Phoenix was never meant to be in Apollo Justice and was shoehorned in by Capcom’s request. Apollo Justice was meant to be its own story without ties into the original trilogy until Capcom insisted on Phoenix getting in the game. Takumi also had to put the Jury System in the story due to the changes to Japan’s legal system at the time.
I don't know how to tell you this... but you're just flatout wrong. As in, you're repeating xXx8432NaggotFiggerxXx's gamefaqs fanfiction from 2008 tier wrong where he said Crapcom forced Phoenix into the game 1 week before it came out (ignore that the entire game is build around him). Running theme with people sperging about AJ.

Shu Takumi pitched, as in before he ever wrote a single word on a paper for a story, to make Ace Attorney 4 about a completely new cast. Capcom agreed as long as atleast Phoenix was in the game + the jury stuff. Shu Takumi then wrote the story specifically to include Phoenix and has said that limitations like that make for better writing as it incentivizes creativity.
Not to mention Phoenix’s reason for getting his ass disbarred happened because he became a retarded jackass whose an asshole to everybody such as openly being a dick to Klavier/Gumshoe, would take random evidence from children he doesn’t know without question, and when cornered about the forgery, he just gives up right away instead of trying to defend himself or getting help from anyone else.

Reminder Phoenix is the same guy who early in his lawyer career was accused of murder and even with the odds stacked against him, he would defend himself. This was in the first game and he had dealt with things more dangerous to his wellbeing since then. So him quitting comes across as entirely out of character.
So, no arguments. Waah the plot happened waah Phoenix too mean waah why didn't he defend himself (even though the judge literally said he doesn't care what his excuse is).

He didn't quit, lmao. His client performed a vanishing act, aka to anybody there he confessed he's the murderer. And he was caught with forged evidence for his now assuredly guilty client. The whole plot is about how he got fucked over by a bad situation. And then he spent the next 7 years trying to get to the bottom of it.
This only makes sense if Hobo Phoenix was meant to be some other guy instead of Phoenix Wright.

If Hobo Phoenix was not Phoenix, but a new guy, everything about his character would make more sense. Since if it was a regular cocky defense attorney in Phoenix’s position, all this stuff could reasonably happen and would lack the bravery Phoenix had or his connections.
Yes, the game about the passing of the guard makes more sense if Phoenix is not in it. That is fantastic writing indeed. Very thematic. (This is ignoring that he was always in it.)
 
I don't know how to tell you this... but you're just flatout wrong. As in, you're repeating xXx8432NaggotFiggerxXx's gamefaqs fanfiction from 2008 tier wrong where he said Crapcom forced Phoenix into the game 1 week before it came out (ignore that the entire game is build around him). Running theme with people sperging about AJ.

Shu Takumi pitched, as in before he ever wrote a single word on a paper for a story, to make Ace Attorney 4 about a completely new cast. Capcom agreed as long as atleast Phoenix was in the game + the jury stuff. Shu Takumi then wrote the story specifically to include Phoenix and has said that limitations like that make for better writing as it incentivizes creativity.

For all we know, Shu could've crossed a random guy's name out and replaced it with Phoenix given the absurdly out of character behavior he represented and how Phoenix's story really did not need to continue.

But there's a few factors that seem pretty odd if Phoenix was part of the original idea like Takumi just leaving the mainline games after AJ to do anything else than continue it like Ghost Trick, the Layton Crossover, and than just move to make TGAA.

If he truly enjoyed writing the game the way that it is, especially with Apollo Justice clearly being the start of a new trilogy with its loose ends, its just odd to do all that.

So, no arguments. Waah the plot happened waah Phoenix too mean waah why didn't he defend himself (even though the judge literally said he doesn't care what his excuse is).

He didn't quit, lmao. His client performed a vanishing act, aka to anybody there he confessed he's the murderer. And he was caught with forged evidence for his now assuredly guilty client. The whole plot is about how he got fucked over by a bad situation. And then he spent the next 7 years trying to get to the bottom of it.

We're talking about writing quality here and Phoenix acting blatantly out of character is just bad writing. Even if he had an ego boost by the end of Trials and Tribulations, his jackass behavior feels completely different with how he just treats Klavier like shit. Phoenix can be a mean guy but he's the type to keep it to himself and is usually outwardly affable towards the prosecutors. Not to mention Gumshoe and Phoenix both are dicks to each other despite being friends at the end of the trilogy and act like they had a bitter rivalry with each other.

Not mentioning even ignoring Phoenix being a jerk, he is still a retard who took random evidence from a child in the courtroom lobby without questioning it? Like its one thing if he did this in his rookie days, but Phoenix is mature enough at this point to know better. He would also be smart enough to know something is fishy given how he dealt with more complicated cases than this.

Phoenix did not know that Trucy was related to Zak at all and the whole forged evidence. All he knew about the source of the forged evidence is that it came from a guy in a blue suit and he didn't bother to think about it or why they told a random kid to give it to Phoenix. There's being stressed, and then there's being retarded.

Phoenix can make bluffs at times but this is too much for a suspension of disbelief.

If this was meant to be Phoenix's downfall, they could've written it without taking IQ points away from Phoenix and not rely on a series of contrivances for the sake of the plot.

Yes, the game about the passing of the guard makes more sense if Phoenix is not in it. That is fantastic writing indeed. Very thematic. (This is ignoring that he was always in it.)
A passing of the torch narrative doesn't necessitate having pre-established characters, and even then Apollo barely does shit in the last case beyond what Phoenix is telling him to do on his behalf. Phoenix does pretty much all of the work in the last case in gathering the evidence that could fuck over Kristoph. Apollo is just Phoenix's lackey than someone making a name for themselves.

Most of the last case barely involves Apollo and he doesn't do anything to really make a name for himself.

Phoenix basically rigged the entire trial where even if Apollo failed, it would be likely the jury would vote in his favor given Phoenix showed the Jury evidence through the MASON system that makes Kristoph look like the guiltiest man out there, and it doesn't help he's already a convicted criminal at this time. Phoenix also introduces the Jury system in a case that he has so many personal stakes in where the defense attorney works for him, and is related to a case that caused him to lose his job. Not to mention one of the jurors is Apollo's mom, and ignoring that Apollo defended a friend of hers of murder charges, this doesn't even get started in how she is extremely related to the entire case. For all we know, Phoenix probably made sure to pick people who he knew would go in his favor.

This all works well for the karmic narrative of how Kristoph screwed Phoenix over in rigging the trial he got disbarred in his favor, which is fine. However if this is meant to be a passing of the torch narrative and one that would advocate the use of the Jury System (which none of this was portrayed in any dubious way compared to Phoenix's other shady actions in the game), it does a piss poor job at both by having Phoenix do all the work for Apollo and Phoenix basically ensure he has a guaranteed win.

While yes there is a bad end, it is meaningless since choosing "Guilty" for the defendant leads to a bare bones bad ending and a hung jury which shows a mixed verdict, and the whole choice is just "do you want to beat the game, yes or no?"

The bad ending in Justice for All at least felt like a proper alternative ending.
 
So excited about Verity. Literally a queen. And a judge too?!

Apollo Justice also sucks because of the damn music cutscene (you know the one!) that keeps appearing. It is true hell on the DS.
 
Phoenix acting blatantly out of character
You know, I kind of get Wright acting all different, having hit rock bottom during the time skip, but the big evidence of "Edgy Wright" not being meant to originally have been Wright at all is how he goes right back to his old personality in the next game. He goes from being totally calm and unshakeable right back to doing the whole nervous grin thing when he gets something wrong.
 
You know, I kind of get Wright acting all different, having hit rock bottom during the time skip, but the big evidence of "Edgy Wright" not being meant to originally have been Wright at all is how he goes right back to his old personality in the next game. He goes from being totally calm and unshakeable right back to doing the whole nervous grin thing when he gets something wrong.
It's not only that but the flashback case in the last part of Apollo Justice has Phoenix act like the biggest asshole in the room and way dumber than he is.
 
For all we know,
Nah, it's definitively known because Shu Takumi said it himself.
Shu Takumi said:
If you allow me to explain to those who don’t know the series: Naruhodō Ryūichi is a young defense attorney who was the protagonist of Gyakuten Saiban 1 ~ 3. While the episodes were all separate stories, the three games formed one big story together.

…That story ended with 3.
I don’t want to add an episode to that story…

This is how I really felt when I got the confirmation that 4 was going to be made. On the other hand, nothing makes a creator as happy as the cry for sequels, and that too is how I really felt.
So after a lot of thinking, I arrived at this conclusion…

“If we’re going to make a true sequel to the games, it should be a completely new story.”

That way, people who don’t know the series yet would be able to get into it easily and we can offer them new surprises.…That was my (fairly reasonable) view on it.

But that was in a way, “selfishness” and I had not really expected that they would allow that to pass, but the company said: “You can change the characters.” What a generous company, Capcom. However. They gave me two conditions.
  • Characters from the previous games, Naruhodō Ryūichi at least, had to appear in the game.
  • "●●●●●" had to be featured in the story.
To be honest, both conditions were quite hard to accept for me. I didn’t want to have Naruhodō simply appear in a brand new story. But I also couldn’t have him interfere with the role of the new protagonist. So how should I use him? And I also had to add in ●●●●●! … This was a tough one. By the way, what ●●●●● means? I can’t tell you before the release. I might talk about on the blog in due time, but I think you’ll know what it is if you complete the game.

[...]

Mystery fiction is always about looking for some new surprise. I think that in order to find new surprises, you need to have ties holding you down. You might think that it should be other way around, but if I look back, I think it happened often that I had to struggle with my own rules like: “In order to make this story work in the best possible way, I can’t do ○○.” Or perhaps I just like being tied up.

But these two conditions were restraints that proved to be a good challenge. I pained my mind to comply with these two conditions, and a story was suddenly born that surprised even me…. That was a very thrilling experience.

… A new story that was born like this. I hope that you will all enjoy it. And that is it for today.
Nevermind that the entire game's central narrative and themes are built around his specific character, which only the most detestably ignorant of people think is happenstance and easy to substitute. I am not exaggarating that this is low IQ gamefaqs faggot from 2008 tier fanfiction about game development.

The fact that this hideously fucking stupid fanfiction is being shat out by "fans" to this day is pathetic.
We're talking about writing quality
Nah, you're just seething about how heckin chungus Wright should be a spastic tard. Even though his entire arc in the trilogy is about becoming the next Mia... which he did at the end of 3. Meaning he should no longer be depicted as a bumbling frazzled shitter. I don't know how anyone can call themselves a fan and miss the entire character development of the protagonist.

Evidently, Shu Takumi had a way better grasp of his own character than you did. Your Gumshoe complaint is just crying about how there wasn't wholesum chungus.

I also cannot believe how the guy that cross examines-parrots would do such a thing as accept evidence from a girl. AA was such a serious, methodical courtroom drama until now.
A passing of the torch narrative doesn't necessitate having pre-established characters,
This sentence is so stupid I cannot convey it in words. What do you think the figurative torch signifies when it is being passed and who is the person passing it, genius.

Crying about Phoenix's last hurrah overshadowing Apollo is also knuckledragger tier. Apollo is the protagonist and surrogate for the player, Phoenix is the central figure of the game's mystery. It is even acknowledged that Apollo, by virtue of being a complete newb, is in over his head and cannot meaningfully contribute to arguments about why the law should change and evolve.

Y'know, cause he's at the start of his own newbie character arc, mirroring Phoenix. But Apollo is still the one digging up the past and putting it to rest. That's his story in the game, he's the new generation without any baggage yet.

he goes right back to his old personality in the next game.
That's because the writer/director for the first 4 games, Shu Takumi, left after AJ and his replacement, Yamazaki, is completely bereft of talent.
 
Nah, you're just seething about how heckin chungus Wright should be a spastic tard. Even though his entire arc in the trilogy is about becoming the next Mia... which he did at the end of 3. Meaning he should no longer be depicted as a bumbling frazzled shitter. I don't know how anyone can call themselves a fan and miss the entire character development of the protagonist.

Evidently, Shu Takumi had a way better grasp of his own character than you did. Your Gumshoe complaint is just crying about how there wasn't wholesum chungus.

I also cannot believe how the guy that cross examines-parrots would do such a thing as accept evidence from a girl. AA was such a serious, methodical courtroom drama until now.
Funny you mention Phoenix’s character development applying to the way Phoenix acted in the flashback case of Apollo Justice, when his personality in the flashback case is an arrogant jackass who blatantly acts like a dick to everyone else. There’s being cocky, and then there’s this. Phoenix isn’t like a bastion of goodness, he is snarky, and is pretty rude mentally, but he openly looks down on Klavier no differently than Winston Payne would.

Phoenix cross examining a parrot had an actual plan behind it and was something he actually planned out in advance before the trial. In contrast, he just took evidence from a child he barely knows and this is the whole crux behind Phoenix’s downfall.

This is honest to god regression on Phoenix’s development in the trilogy, he had been tricked and manipulated by others, but by the end of Trials and Tribulations, he knew better.

This sort of idiotic behavior is what I’d expect out of Amnesiac Phoenix in Justice For All. This does not even account that Phoenix barely had any context to provide this evidence this is all he knows about it:

1. It was given to him by a child he barely knows, who he finds out is Trucy.

2. Trucy doesn’t know what it is and got it from a random guy.

Such a well developed character to take this evidence and present it blindly without any question on the source of where it comes from.

Phoenix usually bluffs his way out of problems, yes, but he usually does it with evidence or information he found on his own or received from trustworthy sources. This is a rookie mistake that makes Phoenix’s whole disbarment plot feel very forced.

Phoenix also just gives up right away rather than stand up for himself with any meaningful evidence especially since he knows Trucy got it from a third party, and Klavier knew about the forgery in advance.

Phoenix does stand up for himself but it is as though he was an inexperienced greenhorn, and blubbers his way out that makes him look guilty. He does say he had no time to prepare it, but then just cries about how this couldn’t be fake as he’s talking to the guy who forged the case.

Reminder this is the same guy who even when he was a naive new defense attorney put more of an effort to defend himself from bogus murder accusations, yet when he has evidence or facts that could save him from bogus forgery accusations, he spills his spaghetti in court.

I get that this is needed to move the plot along, but it could’ve at least been handled better.

This sentence is so stupid I cannot convey it in words. What do you think the figurative torch signifies when it is being passed and who is the person passing it, genius.

Crying about Phoenix's last hurrah overshadowing Apollo is also knuckledragger tier. Apollo is the protagonist and surrogate for the player, Phoenix is the central figure of the game's mystery. It is even acknowledged that Apollo, by virtue of being a complete newb, is in over his head and cannot meaningfully contribute to arguments about why the law should change and evolve.

Y'know, cause he's at the start of his own newbie character arc, mirroring Phoenix. But Apollo is still the one digging up the past and putting it to rest. That's his story in the game, he's the new generation without any baggage yet.
Apollo barely does anything in the last trial on his own. I get that he’s a noob, but it makes him underdeveloped and lack his own identity as a character by barely doing anything in the last case of his own game.

It’s fine to have Phoenix have one last hurrah, but it shouldn’t overshadow the new generation in a “passing the torch” story.

It doesn’t help in the trial, Kristoph is beaten with only one cross examination. If there was more of a fight put up on Kristoph’s behalf, it could at least remedy the issue since Apollo is doing a lot of legwork in the trial to bring him down, but it’s just one cross examination.

You know, I kind of get Wright acting all different, having hit rock bottom during the time skip, but the big evidence of "Edgy Wright" not being meant to originally have been Wright at all is how he goes right back to his old personality in the next game. He goes from being totally calm and unshakeable right back to doing the whole nervous grin thing when he gets something wrong.
Even if you mostly agree with me, unfortunately cBB is right here:

That's because the writer/director for the first 4 games, Shu Takumi, left after AJ and his replacement, Yamazaki, is completely bereft of talent.
While I do like Investigations 2 and some of the cases in Yamazaki’s mainline AA games, Yamazaki has an issue with not bothering to follow mainline continuity.

A good example is how he doesn’t really write Phoenix as a continuation from Trials and Tribulations and has him act like the rising newcomer from the first two games, even down to making some of the same mistakes, some of which are for the sake of making Apollo look good.

Speaking of which, it doesn’t help Yamazaki fumbled Apollo’s character too by giving him ridiculous backstories rather than following through on the plot twist from AJ. It’s to a point where it’s believable that if he is behind AA7, Apollo could have a new backstory where it turns out that Jove was a top secret agent who tried to stop some cartoony super villain.
 
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Not to mention that the case that it's in is easily the dumbest in the entire franchise.
Still can't believe Shu said Big Top was his favorite case....
And I'm one to talk considering my favorites are 1-3, 2-2, 3-1, 3-4, 3-5, AAI-2, AAI-4, and AAI-5.
 
Ace Attorney is literally a soccer mom point and click "menu game", ie there is only one right choice and you can just savescum your way through everything and there is no entertainment value and also 0 replability value. They knew this so all they did was plaster on some memes and bargain basement weeb story points that every other game has. Mix in a little nostalgia if you fell for the meme 20 years ago and bought these pieces of shit and played them on repeat against your will because you burned your birthday present on this and had nothing else to do, and enough time has passed where you can conveniently forget there is literally no gameplay.
 
It wasn't just Phoenix whom got the short end of the stick in Apollo Justice. Every character besides Apollo and maybe Trucy and their mom is a complete asshole.

Phoenix practically ruined Apollo's future job prospects, since he basically made him put his own boss in jail. If his company goes down, Apollo is basically fucked.

Zack Gremaire abandons his own daughter for years only to come back just to ruin Phoenix's poker player reputation.

Emma is a grumpy bitch that throws food at people when she gets angry.

Gumshoe is a moron that "wants to finally beat Phoenix in the courtroom", as if in the games the trials were some autistic battle royale.

The blind kid, Machi, lies to you for no reason.

The kitsune family, besides the dad, were always hostile.

It's like someone in the development team was bitter that they never got to push Apollo properly, so they made everyone an obnoxious asshole just to make Apollo look better,
 
It wasn't just Phoenix whom got the short end of the stick in Apollo Justice. Every character besides Apollo and maybe Trucy and their mom is a complete asshole.

Phoenix practically ruined Apollo's future job prospects, since he basically made him put his own boss in jail. If his company goes down, Apollo is basically fucked.

Zack Gremaire abandons his own daughter for years only to come back just to ruin Phoenix's poker player reputation.

Emma is a grumpy bitch that throws food at people when she gets angry.

Gumshoe is a moron that "wants to finally beat Phoenix in the courtroom", as if in the games the trials were some autistic battle royale.

The blind kid, Machi, lies to you for no reason.

The kitsune family, besides the dad, were always hostile.

It's like someone in the development team was bitter that they never got to push Apollo properly, so they made everyone an obnoxious asshole just to make Apollo look better,
Yeah, this.

Even when you ignore how bad, and nonsensical the plot is, things are just wrong. Everyone's either flanderized, OOC, gets shat on for no reason, is just a dick, or is conspicuously absent.
 
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