Opinion A Realist’s Guide to Impeachment - Trump should face the consequences of his misdeeds, but the road ahead is perilous.

  • Want to keep track of this thread?
    Accounts can bookmark posts, watch threads for updates, and jump back to where you stopped reading.
    Create account

An impeachment of President Donald Trump is both deserved and dangerous. That it’s deserved is clear from each day’s news reports. The danger is getting lost in the rush of events.

It’s unlikely that impeachment will find 67 votes in the Senate for removal. The process will almost certainly end with Trump acquitted, and acquitted in a reelection year. The political consequences of acquittal are obviously unpredictable but could be favorable to Trump’s reelection: Trump supporters may be mobilized, Trump opponents demoralized, and Democratic presidential candidates distracted from issues that may be more potent at the voting booth.

Meanwhile, impeachment is likely to do Trump less and less political harm the longer it lasts. As the Trump presidency daily proves, people can get used to anything. This latest Trump scandal led to an impeachment inquiry because it happened so fast—the shock was still fresh. But the Comey firing, the racist tirades, the “if it’s what you say I love it” email—those were all once shocking too. Then they blurred into the avalanche of Trump awfulness. Trump is protected by the sheer number of his high crimes and misdemeanors. He will certainly commit more, and then these latest risk being buried.

Some impeachment advocates compare today’s process to that of 1973–74, when Richard Nixon’s position gradually crumbled. Maybe, but 1973 and ’74 were years of severe economic distress, a losing war in Vietnam, rising crime in U.S. cities, and long lines at gas stations. Nixon headed a party in the minority in both the House and Senate, and a party less cohesive than the Republican Party of today. Once it split over Watergate, he fell. Trump’s party may lose a defector or two, but it won’t split.
So … eyes open. “You come at the king, you best not miss.” How do you incorporate that wisdom into today’s predicament?
Here are some guidelines to impeachment for realists:
1. Keep the story simple. Some have proposed a massive array of inquiries, delving into every facet of Trump’s corruption and abuse of power. This approach ensures a process that goes slow, yields confusing masses of facts, and opens endless opportunities for bad faith excuse-making by Trump and his enablers. Congress is not very good at investigating, and the more investigations Congress pursues, the more it is likely to mire itself in a morass.

Impeachment in the House is above all things an educational exercise for the voting public. Teach them one lesson: Trump betrayed the national-security interests of the United States to smear a political opponent.
2. Be political, not legal. Robert Mueller built a failure machine because he defined his job as punishing crimes rather than discovering the truth. If he found something that was very bad, but not criminal, he ignored it. If he could not establish a crime beyond a reasonable doubt, the criminal got away with it. If the crime was committed by the president, he in effect protected it. Mueller’s logic was amazingly self-defeating: Because the president cannot be indicted, he will never be heard in court; because the president will never be heard in court, it is unfair even to present evidence of crimes that will never be litigated. Impeachment busts out of this ridiculous trap.
[Adam Serwer: Why Republicans aren’t turning on Trump ]
3. Recognize that the opponent is McConnell. Trump is the target of impeachment, but the strategic locus of the impeachment process is Trump’s enabler and defender in the Senate, Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. It is McConnell who will set the rules of the trial, McConnell who will determine how long it lasts and which witnesses are heard. McConnell presumably knows better than anybody how guilty Trump is—and for that very reason will work harder than anyone to protect Trump. The first task in a successful process is to shrink McConnell’s options for abusive behavior. That means prying just enough Republican senators loose from McConnell’s grip to create a bloc for fair rules.



4. Break the weakest links. Last night, The Washington Post reported that Trump told visiting Russians in June 2017 that he was unconcerned by their interference in the 2016 election. The Post cited three sources—meaning three officials held this appalling story secret for more than two years. Why did they step forward now? Maybe they think they are about to be fired if the Trump administration starts hunting for internal moles; maybe they didn’t believe, until the Ukraine whistle-blower came forward, that leaking would make any difference; maybe they just wanted to get on the right side before it’s too late.
Regardless, the pressures of impeachment create new incentives for administration officials exposed to job or legal risk. Former Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats resigned without saying anything about what he saw on the job. Before Congress, he may be less reticent. The president’s private emissary, Rudy Giuliani, may be legally exposed as well. He may have things to say. Vice President Mike Pence, who played a role in Trump’s dealings with Ukraine, has important calculations to make about his political future. Trump implicated so many people that not all will stay loyal to the end. Some will crack and speak the truth about the criminality they saw. Identify them.

5. Keep the Democratic presidential candidates far away. Bill Clinton survived his impeachment crisis in 1998–99 in great part because he made the Republicans look sex-obsessed while he focused on his job. President Trump has never focused on anything longer than the time it takes to gulp down a Filet-O-Fish. He will be scandal-obsessed—and he will try to drag his prospective 2020 opponents into the mud with him. Their job is to leave the investigation to Congress—and to talk about health care, jobs, college tuition, the cost of Trump tariffs, and other issues of immediate concern to the pocketbook voters who will or won’t eject Trump from the presidency. Those voters will care whether their president is a disloyal criminal, but they may not care about every detail of his disloyalty and criminality. Leave those details to Congress; the candidates have other duties.
[Peter Beinart: The audacity of desperation ]
Trump’s support has moved within a band from the high 30s to the mid-40s through his presidency, edging sometimes toward the 46 percent he won in 2016. He has nowhere to grow. The 50-plus percent who reject him do so decisively and permanently. But a president backed by even one-third of the nation wields great power. If he can hold a blocking faction in the Senate, he becomes more powerful still. When that one-third backs him despite—or even sometimes because—they know him to be lawless, legality dwindles into an only semi-effective tool against him.
Nobody should have any illusions: Bringing anything like justice to President Trump will be neither easy nor safe. The exposure of Trump’s Ukraine extortion scheme forced impeachment on the country. It could not be ignored, and devices like censure are inadequate. But the days ahead are dark.
 
2. Be political, not legal. Robert Mueller built a failure machine because he defined his job as punishing crimes rather than discovering the truth. If he found something that was very bad, but not criminal, he ignored it. If he could not establish a crime beyond a reasonable doubt, the criminal got away with it.

.... after a certain point this shit stops being funny or aggravating and just ends up leaving me with an ice-cream headache. I can't imagine being so bereft of intellectual standards that I'd type this shit out, read it over, think "Yep! NAILED IT!" and hand it off to the editor for review.
 
.... after a certain point this shit stops being funny or aggravating and just ends up leaving me with an ice-cream headache. I can't imagine being so bereft of intellectual standards that I'd type this shit out, read it over, think "Yep! NAILED IT!" and hand it off to the editor for review.
8e9ef757f8ba3f0ebea74773fd6b2968.png


It's not as though David Frum's back-catalogue is exactly full of brilliance, to be fair. That entire article is hilarious in hindsight.
 
Nobody has ever been impeached and removed, why do these people get so hung up on this? There's like a year of Trump left.
*Five years
I can only assume they think that even if this doesn't somehow get them a win with whatever loser comes out of the primary, it will at least keep Trump from replacing Ginsburg, because he's been very concerned with sacrificing easy wins in order to uphold tradition and decorum so far.
 
You know if the Dems hadn't tried to impeach Trump since before he was even elected over everything from taking to sloppy of a shit to being that guy they would have got a lot more traction from the shock.

Edit: Ya know maybe the Senate is majority Republican and even rabid Never Trumpers would be reluctant to be the one that ousted their own party President

Edit 2: Isn't there a process in government to try leaders without impeaching them, I dont know if I'm misremembering but I believe you can try the President without impeaching him and it's less stringent than impeachment
 
Last edited:
Yeah it was, they can also investigate Trump for criminal misconduct without impeachment as well I believe? Yeah they did it for Teapot dome and Watergate iirc
They already tried to introduce resolutions to censure him over the "both sides" ordeal and the "shithole countries" debacle, the latter of which they never managed to prove that he even said in the first place. Both of the efforts failed.
 
They already tried to introduce resolutions to censure him over the "both sides" ordeal and the "shithole countries" debacle, the latter of which they never managed to prove that he even said in the first place. Both of the efforts failed.
Yeah that sums up their current issue pretty well. I almost feel bad for them because this would be huge otherwise and they're completely oblivious to how their own pettiness cost them vital support and momentum because they think they're on the right side of history and once everyone gets smarter they'll agree with them unconditionally
 
"Be political, not legal"
It's a hint to anyone with eyes. The dem establishment doesn't think he'll be impeached. only ThE sQuAd and their lackeys think that. Sad truth is that it's a tactic as the election cycle is warming up. They have to energize their base to get out and vote, both in the primaries and in the general.
Why do you think Pelosy, the Wicked Witch Of The Swamp, looked more constipated than usual in her announcement?
The dems have been running a campaign meant to discredit and undermine trump since before the election. Even if they never managed to remove him they want to make sure his legacy doesn't stick, that he won't be able to make a lasting change. They need public opinion to see him as illegitimate. This is more of the same + throwing a bone to the crazies in the party.
Don't think they won't go after Kavanaugh if Trump loses this round. But I think they just guaranteed he'll win.
 
It’s one of those things where they feel they have to do it to satisfy the assmad left in hopes of shoring up the numbers for the election. However, Pelosi knows it’s a losing proposition although she tries to play both sides.

It’s heads Trump wins, tails Democrats lose. The Democrats would be truly fucked but thanks to jamming millions upon millions of illegals into the country since 2016, the demographic shift may be enough to override Democratic stupidity. I wouldn’t make the mistake of assuming Trump will sail to victory, even with this retarded attempt at impeachment, which is designed to fail anyway.
 
Have a better article from The Atlantic.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...-legal-socially-acceptable-corruption/598804/

IDEAS
Hunter Biden’s Perfectly Legal, Socially Acceptable Corruption
Donald Trump committed an impeachable offense, but prominent Americans also shouldn’t be leveraging their names for payoffs from shady clients abroad.
SEP 27, 2019
Sarah Chayes
Author of Thieves of State: Why Corruption Threatens National Security
2more free articles this month
Sign in
Subscribe Now
A closeup of Hunter Biden standing with his father, Joe Biden.
VISAR KRYEZIU / AP
How did this get to be standard practice?
The whistle-blower scandal that has prompted the fourth presidential impeachment process in American history has put a spectacle from earlier this decade back on display: the jaw-smacking feast of scavengers who circled around Ukraine as Viktor Yanukovych, a Moscow-linked kleptocrat, was driven from power. Ukraine’s crisis was the latest to energize a club whose culture has come to be treated as normal—a culture in which top-tier lawyers, former U.S. public officials, and policy experts (and their progeny) cash in by trading on their connections and their access to insider policy information—usually by providing services to kleptocrats like Yanukovych. The renewed focus on Ukraine raises jangling questions: How did dealing in influence to burnish the fortunes of repugnant world leaders for large payoffs become a business model? How could America’s leading lights convince themselves—and us—that this is acceptable?

Voicing this question now invites an immediate objection: “false equivalence.” Let’s dispense with it. What Donald Trump has done—in this case, according to the summary of a single phone call, lean on a foreign president to launch two spurious investigations in order to hurt political rivals, offering the services of the U.S. Department of Justice for the purpose—is shockingly corrupt, a danger to American democracy, and worthy of impeachment.
MORE BY SARAH CHAYES

Franklin Foer: Democracy versus kleptocracy
But the egregiousness of these acts must not blind us to the culture of influence-peddling that surrounds and enables them. That culture is fundamental to the cynical state we are in, and it needs examining. All too often, the scandal isn’t that the conduct in question is forbidden by federal law, but rather, how much scandalous conduct is perfectly legal—and broadly accepted.

Let’s start with Hunter Biden. In April 2014, he became a director of Burisma, the largest natural-gas producer in Ukraine. He had no prior experience in the gas industry, nor with Ukrainian regulatory affairs, his ostensible purview at Burisma. He did have one priceless qualification: his unique position as the son of the vice president of the United States, newborn Ukraine’s most crucial ally. Weeks before Biden came on, Ukraine’s government had collapsed amid a popular revolution, giving its gas a newly strategic importance as an alternative to Russia’s, housed in a potentially democratic country. Hunter’s father was comfortably into his second term as vice president—and was a prospective future president himself.
There was already a template, in those days, for how insiders in a gas-rich kleptocracy could exploit such a crisis using Western “advisers” to facilitate and legitimize their plunder—and how those Westerners could profit handsomely from it. A dozen-plus years earlier, amid the collapse of the U.S.S.R. of which Ukraine was a part, a clutch of oligarchs rifled the crown jewels of a vast nation. We know some of their names, in some cases because of the work of Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s office: Oleg Deripaska, Viktor Vekselberg, Dmitry Rybolovlev, Leonard Blavatnik. That heist also was assisted by U.S. consultants, many of whom had posts at Harvard and at least one of whom was a protégé of future Treasury Secretary Larry Summers.

Burisma’s story is of that stripe. The company had been founded by Mykola Zlochevsky, who, as Yanukovych’s minister of ecology and natural resources, had overseen Ukraine’s fossil-fuel deposits. When Hunter Biden joined Burisma’s board, $23 million of Zlochevsky’s riches were being frozen by the British government in a corruption probe. Zlochevsky fled Ukraine. The younger Biden enlisted his law firm, Boies Schiller Flexner, to provide what The New Yorker describes as “advice on how to improve the company’s corporate governance.” Eventually, the asset freeze on Zlochevsky was lifted. Deripaska defeated U.S. sanctions with similar help from other high-profile Americans.
Recently, Hunter Biden told The New Yorker that “the decisions that I made were the right decisions for my family and for me” and suggested Trump was merely using him as the “tip of the spear” to undermine Joe Biden politically. There are no indications that Hunter’s activities swayed any decision his father made as vice president. Joe Biden did pressure Ukraine’s fledgling post-Yanukovych president to remove a public prosecutor—as part of concerted U.S. policy. So did every other Western government and dozens of Ukrainian and international pro-democracy activists. The problem was not that the prosecutor was too aggressive with corrupt businessman-politicians like Hunter Biden’s boss; it was that he was too lenient.



Franklin Foer: Paul Manafort, American hustler
And Hunter Biden was hardly the only prominent American who did well for himself during Ukraine’s transition. Another Burisma director was Cofer Black, George W. Bush’s CIA counterterrorism chief. The Republican operative and future Trump campaign chair Paul Manafort worked for Yanukovych. So did Obama White House Counsel Gregory Craig. The millions he was grossing were paid by an oligarch allied with Yanukovich and routed to Craig’s firm, Skadden Arps, through a confusing series of offshore accounts. At the time, Craig was a director of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. I was just joining that organization, as the first senior fellow working on international corruption. (His work for Yanukovych was not widely advertised.)
Craig was prosecuted on the narrow count of lying to federal investigators. He was acquitted. To see the grin on his face that day, it was as though he had been absolved not just of criminal misconduct but also of moral wrongdoing.

When prominent Americans leverage their global reputations for financial gain, they attract almost no attention today. How many of us who consider ourselves well versed in U.S. politics and international relations know that alongside her consulting firm, former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright started an emerging-markets hedge fund, run by her son-in-law? In 2011, Albright Capital took a voting stake in APR Energy, specializing in pop-up electricity plants for developing countries. APR promotes itself to the mining industry in Africa, where resource extraction enriches a handful of kleptocratic elites and leaves locals mired in pollution and conflict. Some of APR’s business comes via the U.S. Agency for International Development, which works closely with the State Department once led by Albright.
Franklin Foer: The ‘otherwise blameless’ life of Paul Manafort
Scratch into the bios of many former U.S. officials who were in charge of foreign or security policy in administrations of either party, and you will find “consulting” firms and hedge-fund gigs monetizing their names and connections.

Some of these gigs require more ethical compromises than others. When allegations of ethical lapses or wrongdoing surface against people on one side of the aisle, they can always claim that someone on the other side has done far worse. But taken together, all of these examples have contributed to a toxic norm. Joe Biden is the man who, as a senator, walked out of a dinner with Afghan President Hamid Karzai. Biden was one of the most vocal champions of anticorruption efforts in the Obama administration. So when this same Biden takes his son with him to China aboard Air Force Two, and within days Hunter joins the board of an investment advisory firm with stakes in China, it does not matter what father and son discussed. Joe Biden has enabled this brand of practice, made it bipartisan orthodoxy. And the ethical standard in these cases—people’s basic understanding of right and wrong—becomes whatever federal law allows. Which is a lot.
Who among us has not admired or supported people who have engaged in or provided cover for this kind of corruption? How did we convince ourselves it was not corruption? Impeachment alone will not end our national calamity. If we want to help our country heal, we must start holding ourselves, our friends, and our allies—and not just our enemies—to its highest standards
 
It will never happen. Trump would have to do something so horrendous, something so heinous (like killing more people with drones than the 2 previous presidents combined) that the public would have no choice but to turn on him at the same time.

Or antagonize the jews, any of those would work.

And even then, impeaching is not something you really wanna do because it sets a horrendous precedent. Parties will start weaponizing it even further, fucking with each other even MORE just to get them to slip. Its mutually assured destruction, and nowdays the democrats have way more filthy rags to hide, since the republicans have been under extreme scrutiny these past 4 years.
 
Voicing this question now invites an immediate objection: “false equivalence.” Let’s dispense with it. What Donald Trump has done—in this case, according to the summary of a single phone call, lean on a foreign president to launch two spurious investigations in order to hurt political rivals, offering the services of the U.S. Department of Justice for the purpose—is shockingly corrupt, a danger to American democracy, and worthy of impeachment.

The left have lost their fucking minds. Even with a political journalism history in Japan and South Korea, I've never seen people act so delusional. South Korean politics is insanely delusional, but this is a whole new step up.
Even the Tanaka Kakuei era was more legit than this. This is like China levels of delusion.
 
I can only assume they think that even if this doesn't somehow get them a win with whatever loser comes out of the primary, it will at least keep Trump from replacing Ginsburg, because he's been very concerned with sacrificing easy wins in order to uphold tradition and decorum so far.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Coney_Barrett#Potential_Supreme_Court_nomination

Barrett had been included on President Donald Trump's list of potential Supreme Court nominees since 2017. In July 2018, following the retirement announcement of Anthony Kennedy, she was reportedly one of three finalists considered by Trump as a possible successor to Kennedy. Trump nominated Judge Brett Kavanaugh for the position. Barrett is considered to be a possible nominee for future Supreme Court vacancies. Trump is reportedly "saving" Ruth Bader Ginsburg's seat for Amy Coney Barrett if Ginsburg leaves during Trump's presidency.

Amy Coney Barrett WILL replace RBG.

1569750502117.png
 
I'm still somewhere between baffled and sardonically amused by the casual self-assurance with which articles like that posted a couple of posts up say that what Trump did was impeachable. Sure if the only possible purpose of slow-walking aid was to get Hunter Biden investigated, there'd be a problem. Using major aid as coercion for such an end would be disproportionate such as to give rise Trump was abusing his position to go after political rivals.

But that wasn't the case. Biden was incidental to the conversation with Ukrainian officials. The major topic of the investigation the aid threat related to was an investigation into meddling in US elections. And there were a bunch of other things Trump said (he seemed very concerned with telling the Ukrainian government who was good and who was bad). Biden was no more than incidental. And the US government certainly has an interest in investigating its citizens' involvement in overseas corruption.

So it can't be said that anything Trump did was grossly disproportionate to the outcome sought. At best, Trump's actions are colourable as involving the use of his position to pursue political rivals. Certainly, it's much less of an obvious case, than, say, the White House directing the IRS to go after political opponents of the administration.
 
I'm not in the US but the Brit media is obsessed by Trump & has been reporting on these impeachment attempts since he took office & I can't help wondering if this near constant witch hunt could have the opposite effect & actually help him win in 2020 ? Surely a lot of voters will be annoyed about how the Dems have behaved & might just go out & vote for him to give the Dems the finger ? As an outsider looking in, it seems like there's almost been a permanent attempt at a soft coup on Trumps leadership, which has gained nothing but has wasted an awful lot of time & money & doesn't make US politics look too healthy on the world stage.
 
It seems the liberal media don't actually believe he will be impeached and that theres no chance for it. So they are pushing this thinking they will benefit from this charade, do they not see they will only make people like Trump more?

They have reached levels of insanity I previously thought unreachable.

This can only look bad for the democrats, the average guy on the street is seeing this meltdown the media is having, the meltdown the democrats are having, and it will only make Trump more powerful.
 
Back
Top Bottom