Captain Marvel - Literally, from "her" to "hero"

[Krokodil Overdose]

I also thought Wonder Woman was pretty good. It could've been better but certainly a million times better than BvS and Ms. Marvel, although the final battle with Ares (as well as his characterization and casting choice) could've been way better.

I'd like to take issue with this, because making the God of War, during WW1, to be not some meathead warrior or general ripper type but rather some stuffy, ineffectual bureaucrat is so on the nose it needs plastic surgery to fix. I do agree the final battle was lacking, though- he should have had some magic widgets (if he'd killed the other Olympians, there should have been plenty lying around) and would it have killed them to have his "true" form look passably athletic and Mediterranean, and less like an entrant in Monty Python's Upeerclass Twit of the Year competition?

 

[StarkRavingMad]

Ares shouldn't have existed in Wonder Woman, period. I understand why he was tacked on at the end (to not piss off fanboys and to have a big action scene at the end), but narratively, when I saw the movie for the first time, I was totally about to give it an A+ when it was revealed that WW didn't kill Ares, and that the war was still happening for a moment there. The message of "War will always continue" and how awful people can be WITHOUT the literal God of War's influence would have been so much more mature and poignant of an ending. Would have made WW even more of a hero and an inspiration to keep fighting for good, I believe.

Kevin Feige, after receiving some backlash for how the Captain Marvel movie handled to Skrulls, double-downed and literally said that he wanted to "subvert expectations" (insert RedLetterMedia meme here). This movie is looking more and more like The Last Jedi everyday, god damn it. Did Kevin Feige drink from the same glass of water as Rian Johnson, or something? Because YIKES:

I wanted Wonder Woman to subvert my expectations. Why? Because the setup for it would have felt rewarding and flat-out brilliant from a thematic standpoint. It would have been a thinking man's ending for a comic book movie, in my opinion. I really do believe that Patty Jenkins wanted that ending as well, but was forced to add Ares at the end. As underwhelming and blasé as the final fight is, Jenkins, by adding some emotion to the fight with the death of Trevor, prevented the ending from being a disaster.

With Captain Marvel "subverting my expectations" with the Skrulls, what was the point of that, exactly? There's no thematic rhyme or reason to do it, and it certainly isn't rewarding for fans who have been waiting for these characters to appear on the big screen. This "subversion" just comes across as fucking lazy, because incorporating the Secret Invasion storyline would have required work and creativity to shock people about who they could trust. It's crystal clear to see that.

All of this said, while Wonder Woman ain't a perfect movie, it's a movie that is mostly brilliant, IMO. And Gal Gadot is simply magical, powerful, lovable, and charismatic as Wonder Woman-- no hyperbole. She OWNS that role now, and I can't wait for Wonder Woman 1984 if only for her returning to the role.

 

[Hatoful Dandy]

Imagine if they ever end up properly adapting Secret Invasion down the line and the Skrulls mock Carol for being naive enough to believe them before they fire her into space again.

As for lying about the box office, well, if Disney did that, they'd still have to report the actual numbers to shareholders next quarter and that'd put them in a bit of trouble if they weren't truthful about it.

 

[That Chris Guy]

Ares shouldn't have existed in Wonder Woman, period. I understand why he was tacked on at the end (to not piss off fanboys and to have a big action scene at the end), but narratively, when I saw the movie for the first time, I was totally about to give it an A+ when it was revealed that WW didn't kill Ares, and that the war was still happening for a moment there. The message of "War will always continue" and how awful people can be WITHOUT the literal God of War's influence would have been so much more mature and poignant of an ending. Would have made WW even more of a hero and an inspiration to keep fighting for good, I believe.

Kevin Feige, after receiving some backlash for how the Captain Marvel movie handled to Skrulls, double-downed and literally said that he wanted to "subvert expectations" (insert RedLetterMedia meme here). This movie is looking more and more like The Last Jedi everyday, god damn it. Did Kevin Feige drink from the same glass of water as Rian Johnson, or something? Because YIKES:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=r-fkFPvUzag
I wanted Wonder Woman to subvert my expectations. Why? Because the setup for it would have felt rewarding and flat-out brilliant from a thematic standpoint. It would have been a thinking man's ending for a comic book movie, in my opinion. I really do believe that Patty Jenkins wanted that ending as well, but was forced to add Ares at the end. As underwhelming and blasé as the final fight is, Jenkins, by adding some emotion to the fight with the death of Trevor, prevented the ending from being a disaster.

With Captain Marvel "subverting my expectations" with the Skrulls, what was the point of that, exactly? There's no thematic rhyme or reason to do it, and it certainly isn't rewarding for fans who have been waiting for these characters to appear on the big screen. This "subversion" just comes across as fucking lazy, because incorporating the Secret Invasion storyline would have required work and creativity to shock people about who they could trust. It's crystal clear to see that.

All of this said, while Wonder Woman ain't a perfect movie, it's a movie that is mostly brilliant, IMO. And Gal Gadot is simply magical, powerful, lovable, and charismatic as Wonder Woman-- no hyperbole. She OWNS that role now, and I can't wait for Wonder Woman 1984 if only for her returning to the role.

Wonder Woman subverted my expectations by being a good movie, lol. I agree that a twist where Ares had not been fanning the flames at all would have been a very interesting take, and his involvement was mostly to serve as vindication for the character and audience by saying, "Yes, he had actually been doing something this whole time" and, "No, Diana had not just been chasing her own tail". Sparing Ares because her own confidence in love eventually winning through in spite of him might have also worked too, although iirc her willingness to kill enemies was a distinguishing feature for her amongst the Trinity. Aside from that, I am looking forward to Wonder Woman 1984, hoping that Jenkins does a great job with the Cheetah dynamic involved.

I'm not exactly sure where Feige got the stupid idea that changing the Skrull would be well received; maybe from Thanos being changed into a sympathetic character (?). Because last I looked the success of the MCU mostly came from staying faithful to the source material, whereas the DCEU was lambasted for its changes. It's the same kind of squandered potential found in Thor: The Dark World and Age of Ultron, and with something like the Skrull which can allow for recurring villains you really don't want to be messing that up.

I thought Aquaman was good and I actually enjoyed the hammy dialogue... The CGI was definitely meh, but I'm not fond of CGI effects in general these days.

I like to think that even though the CGI looked bad before it even came out, the movie will endure on the merits of story and character. I actually hated Wan's other blockbuster effort (Furious 7), but he was definitely within his element here. A number of scenes worked because of how simple they were, which seems counterproductive in concept when it's running against Marvel's Phase 3 overarching, interconnected narrative.

I still hope Captain Marvel/Shazam's actor doesn't do any other Brie-like stunts online and that his movie does justice to the legacy of his character as well as Brave and the Bold did, even if they no longer use his original name.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=xfNsnWRa2Ys

I probably won't see it in theatres because some of the comedy looked too childish for me, but I do hope that it does Billy Batson justice. There is a lot of possibility with the character if they execute it correctly, and I wouldn't be averse to the kind of story the comics give him.

 

[Done]

I think a lot of people here have been watching too many anti-SJW videos, CM is a boring movie that's part of a corporate-mandated series of movies that's launching against fuckall competition, a complete nothingburger if I've ever seen one.

Don't let SJWs and anti-SJWs fool you into thinking that you will even remember this generic movie after a month. Don't exchange shitty left-wing clickbait for shitty right-wing clickbait. If you like the movie, then watch the movie, if you don't like it, then tell everyone to fuck off and do something that's actually fun with your time, like killing trannies or playing vidya, whatever floats your boat.

Clark Glegg defending CM is so ironic. TBH I had to look up who he is, he played Agent Cookson who I thought was played by Kevin Spacy since they look the same - explains why Clark is also irrelevant and creepy looking

Of course he's gonna defend the movie he's paid to be in lmao, what is even ironic about that?

 

[RockVolnutt]

Some more gems from my favorite alternate history forum that were in response to Bob Chipman's latest edition of The Big Picture, which Captain Marvel was the main topic.

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View attachment 692615

Thankfully, I don't waste my time posting on their boards (PROTIP: Do not mention Gamergate in even a neutral light unless you want to get banned), but I do get a laugh out of them sneering at fans over "entitlement." Nerd have long been the butt of jokes for the anal-retentive attention to detail/continuity and generally being unappeasable in mainstream culture. However, the "progressive" media is just as bad because they were shitting their collective pants over a gaggle of idiots who were complaining over Brie Larson saying something stupid, and gave Disney boatloads of free publicity to boot. It would not surprise me in the least that most of these people thought they were entitled to influence the direction of the MCU because they see themselves as being on, "the right side of history."

I'm all for expanding the fanbase because a franchise needs to bring in new fans to stay viable, but there is something to be said to be mindful of the fans that stuck with you before you became mainstream. Did it occur that maybe they want the film to be the best that it could be? My main takeaway from the reviews and opinions I've read on Captain Marvel is that it's formulaic and "okay" at best. It really felt that Marvel was coasting on this one because they knew that the film would make money anyway because of the pavlovian effect of their products. Is it really a BAD thing to demand more than mediocrity?

I would like to say that Marvel (and DC) could go back to a time before everything became so corporate-driven, but the the honest truth is that was the case with comics since they slapped the Superman logo on whatever they could find. Maybe in an age of increasing media consolidation it has grown more cynical with corporations believing that the audience will eat up whatever they drop on their plate. I've seen this attitude in comics since Joe Quesada's reign as editor-in-chief at Marvel. Creators have become pompous, condescending, and--dare I say it?--entitled pricks who believe they can sneer at their shrinking audience. This attitude can and has crossed over into other mediums and it's a slow-acting poison.


I will be bold and claim that Wonder Woman is an objectively better film than Captain Marvel. Say what you want about Gal Gadot's acting prowess, but at least Diana HAD a character arc and growth in WW whereas Carol was a largely static character throughout from what I've gleaned.

With the "has long since outgrown them", I think they're doing the usual song and dance where they pretend liking the MCU is the same thing as reading Marvel Comics. They aren't even produced by the same company.

Most people who do the "I own a Spider-Man shirt and watched the Raimi movies, I know everything about the Spider-Man comics" are usually idiots. Not to mention there are countless stories that disprove "Comics are always political" unless you want to tell me the political message of the story arc where a spider lady wanted to rape and eat Peter before letting their spawn take over the world or just anything else surrounding "The Other" for example.

A pet peeve of mine is people using words like "always" for these sort of things and then go "By always, I didn't literally mean always".

 

[RumblyTumbly]

All the shit slinging from both sides on this movie has done nothing but bring attention to a film that was, at best, forgettable.

I won't say Captain Marvel was anywhere near the worst I have ever seen. I mean, shit, it was better than Venom.

But I've come to expect a little bit more out of the MCU than what we got. Even their weaker films gave us something to latch on too, usually the hero. But I can't help but feel like Captain Marvel would have been a better movie if she wasn't in it and it was just Nick Fury taking on aliens, lol.

As for the Skrull thing, I don't mind some Skrulls being good guys. I was never a fan of the idea of everybody under the same banner having to be good or bad depending on their label. Avatar The Last Airbender handled this well as not everybody in the Fire Nation was bad and not everybody in the Earth Kingdom/Water Tribe was good. Characters are individuals and have their own circumstances, motivations, and goals in the story.

The problem though is that the movie made it seem like all the Skrulls are misunderstood good guys rather than just this handful that are trying to get away from the war, which kind of undermines potential antagonists for future movies. Oh well.

 

[StarkRavingMad]

I think a lot of people here have been watching too many anti-SJW videos, CM is a boring movie that's part of a corporate-mandated series of movies that's launching against fuckall competition, a complete nothingburger if I've ever seen one.

Don't let SJWs and anti-SJWs fool you into thinking that you will even remember this generic movie after a month. Don't exchange shitty left-wing clickbait for shitty right-wing clickbait. If you like the movie, then watch the movie, if you don't like it, then tell everyone to fuck off and do something that's actually fun with your time, like killing trannies or playing vidya, whatever floats your boat.

Of course he's gonna defend the movie he's paid to be in lmao, what is even ironic about that?

The whole "culture war" thing is old and tired when it comes to this movie. Sure, Disney has an agenda with this movie: They played up the feminism angle to pander to grow a certain demographic for comic book movies.

At this point, the actual critiques of the movie are getting lost in the fray, which actually pisses me off more. The movie, as is, sucks. We don't even need to bring up politics to confirm that. The movie is very easy to pick apart.

 

[Done]

The whole "culture war" thing is old and tired when it comes to this movie. Sure, Disney has an agenda with this movie: They played up the feminism angle to pander to grow a certain demographic for comic book movies.

Fully agreed.

Marvel are doing the sensible thing when it comes to their portfolio: Find existing characters and stories that will attract new segments to a genre that they traditionally don't, and protect their cashcow from the risk of actors not renewing their contracts.

Lefty YouTubers and clickbait outlets are trying to rile up their readers into clicking their review and news pieces and getting ad revenue, right-wing affiliated YouTubers and clickbait outlets are doing the same.

What I'm saying is, everyone wins here, except people who are constantly outraged about the movie. Attention is a commodity, and in this age, one needs to carefully manage it the way they manage their money.

At this point, the actual critiques of the movie are getting lost in the fray, which actually pisses me off more. The movie, as is, sucks. We don't even need to bring up politics to confirm that. The movie is very easy to pick apart.

It's just very telling to me that the majority of RLM's video on this movies doesn't really talk about it, there's literally nothing new for critics to say about MCU and superhero films in general.

 

[Godzilla@1989]

Although Brie Larson was dull in CM, I feel less worried about Denver’s role in Endgame.

 

[iRON-mAn]

Yeah, I'm not particularly concerned about the Kree/Scrull thing. The Kree were already kind of dicks, and by the time of Guardians of the Galaxy, they're largely willing to remain peaceful, abiding by the treaty, apart from Ronan and his subset of extremists who are dealt with by the Guardians themselves. It'd also be hella easy to reintroduce the Scrulls as bad guys, as representing them as dissatisfied that there wasn't more justice for their dead, and that the Kree Empire was simply allowed to sign a peace treaty.

What I didn't like was Ronan's presence in the film. It felt like one of those 'haha, look it's all connected moments' that was unnecessary after 20 films and the tesseract fulfilled that purpose better anyway. Ronan running scared and saying 'we'll be back for her' derailed the character to make CM look more imposing, when destroying a whole star fleet already accomplished that too. I'm not even sure it makes sense, unless they're suggesting Ronan only wanted the power stone in GOTG1 so he could fight CM.

 

[Kyria the Great]

The whole "culture war" thing is old and tired when it comes to this movie. Sure, Disney has an agenda with this movie: They played up the feminism angle to pander to grow a certain demographic for comic book movies.

At this point, the actual critiques of the movie are getting lost in the fray, which actually pisses me off more. The movie, as is, sucks. We don't even need to bring up politics to confirm that. The movie is very easy to pick apart.

Well when the culture war thing gets brought in, it can at times be difficult to separate the product from the marketing as sometimes they are entwined though I can't say it wasn't the degree it was made out with this film. Though one thing that does piss me off is that critics don't seem to give DC movies any justice when they do right, though the same tired MCU movie is being stamped out, they will go crazy as if Daddy Disney is either giving them the keys to the Magic Kingdom or out of fear their shit rag will bust if they don't get those early release tickets.

I honestly want to talk about the real issues surrounding the film, not the feminist angles of the film, whether it had them or not, but all the lying and deception surrounding this film. I don't care if you are selling Aircraft or Zippers, I cannot stand lying and deception and people should be more vocal about it as you can chalk it up to another "popcorn movie" but it is that mindset is why we have a shitty entertainment industry to begin with. I don't expect every film to be masterclass, but I expect more out of studios that I know that can and given the Disney/Fox merger I greatly fear that films will get even more bland and stagnant to the point that mediocrity is celebrated out of fear of people losing their sad writer jobs.

 

[Godzilla@1989]

but I expect more out of studios that I know that can and given the Disney/Fox merger

There’s always the possibility of the merger hurting Disney. I could also see Disney scaling back Marvel and Lucasfilm to make room for Fox.

 

[LuthienTinuviel]

I saw it. It's definitely not bad, it's not Generic Paperthin Feminism Shoved Down Your Throat, but best thing I can say about it is that it's yet another generic Marvel movie - in the sense that there was potential for an actually great movie, but they didn't go all the way? The whole thing with CM/Carol struggling with her emotions and everything could have been a really interesting point, but it just wasn't developed fully. Real shame, especially that it's meant to be more of a soul-searching/finding your true self kind of arc. I liked Carol and Fury's interactions, though, they actually bounced off pretty well of each other.

Brie Larson wasn't too bad - I still think she's miscast, but it's not a disaster either, and I can't say I disliked Carol either. But she has the same problem as Alicia Vikander - it's not that they're bad actresses, but for roles that require gravitas and charisma... they're just not the right person for the job. It happens. Like, Denzel Washington may be one of the greatest actors alive, but that doesn't mean he'd be a good fit for, I dunno, Spiderman.

But long story short, I'm not too worried about her role in Endgame, and I won't complain if she's a major player in the next MCU phase. We'll have Spiderman, Black Panther, Doctor Strange, Scarlet Witch around... it'll be fine.

 

[MI 814]

I saw it. It's definitely not bad, it's not Generic Paperthin Feminism Shoved Down Your Throat, but best thing I can say about it is that it's yet another generic Marvel movie - in the sense that there was potential for an actually great movie, but they didn't go all the way? The whole thing with CM/Carol struggling with her emotions and everything could have been a really interesting point, but it just wasn't developed fully. Real shame, especially that it's meant to be more of a soul-searching/finding your true self kind of arc. I liked Carol and Fury's interactions, though, they actually bounced off pretty well of each other.

Brie Larson wasn't too bad - I still think she's miscast, but it's not a disaster either, and I can't say I disliked Carol either. But she has the same problem as Alicia Vikander - it's not that they're bad actresses, but for roles that require gravitas and charisma... they're just not the right person for the job. It happens. Like, Denzel Washington may be one of the greatest actors alive, but that doesn't mean he'd be a good fit for, I dunno, Spiderman.

But long story short, I'm not too worried about her role in Endgame, and I won't complain if she's a major player in the next MCU phase. We'll have Spiderman, Black Panther, Doctor Strange, Scarlet Witch around... it'll be fine.

Well hopefully you won't eat those words when it turns out your wrong.

Especially if there is less investment in the overall story of the MCU it will likely be it's decline.

CM though ain't gonna do the MCU any favors if she's gonna replace Tony Stark.

 

[LuthienTinuviel]

Well hopefully you won't eat those words when it turns out your wrong.

Especially if there is less investment in the overall story of the MCU it will likely be it's decline.

CM though ain't gonna do the MCU any favors if she's gonna replace Tony Stark.

She's not really a Tony Stark type of character, to be fair. More of a Straight Guy/Inspirational Figure like Steve Rogers/Captain America (I mean, not quite, but you know what I mean).

But I've never been that invested in the MCU anyway - I've always been more of a DC girl - so if it declines, I'll be pretty meh about it. It's been going on for 10 years, and that's pretty impressive in itself. It's bound to decline at some point.

 

[KillThemCrackasBabies]

Well hopefully you won't eat those words when it turns out your wrong.

Especially if there is less investment in the overall story of the MCU it will likely be it's decline.

CM though ain't gonna do the MCU any favors if she's gonna replace Tony Stark.

Iron Man, while in a lot of MCU movies, wasn't that universes god. They put out one movie you thought was bad, settle down.

 

[MI 814]

Iron Man, while in a lot of MCU movies, wasn't that universes god. They put out one movie you thought was bad, settle down.

Sorry? But did you see the same movie I saw? The point I was trying to make is if they are banking on Captain Marvel being as iconic as Tony Stark...oh boy are they seriously dumb or just desperate.

I know you are being obtuse on purpose, but I will give you a bone and say Black Panther and Spider-Man are better at this role than Captain Marvel...though admittedly Black Panther was kinda bleh (but no where near as bad as Carol Danvers) and the MCU's version of Spider-Man is honestly Disney Channel tier crap.

And of course I guess you want the crappy characters from the current marvel comics to come in too. Which is what people are worried will happen since Captain Marvel made money (but because of it's connection to Endgame).

 

[KillThemCrackasBabies]

I know you are being obtuse on purpose

Again with this shit. You don't even know what the plan is and you're sitting here whining "concern troll" when someone suggests maybe wait and see what the actual idea even is before crying "Done forever!".

 

[Recoil]

I know that Alita was mentioned earlier in the thread, but I wanted to say that having seen Alita and the comics that birthed it, I can't help but come to the conclusion that she's a far better role model for young women. FAR better. I've taken in more than a few of the comics for Captain Marvel as well, and there's nothing exciting, aspirational, groundbreaking or culturally 'catchy' about her character. Carl Manvers defines herself in opposition to things in the world around her whereas Alita defines herself in spite of those things.

It's like night and day. You wouldn't want to be stuck in an elevator with Captain Marvel, you know? There's no appeal in that character, not even visually.

Why in God's name would you choose such a patently unappealing character to spearhead a social movement? Wouldn't you be more down to get behind an ideology if one of its supposed mascots had genuine appeal and humanity? Who chose this shit, and how is it even considered "woke" to whitewash a black superhero from the 70's and turn her into a coastal liberal elitist?