Law Trump admin imposes bumpstock ban unilaterally - Hawaii judge, where you at?

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WASHINGTON — The Trump administration on Tuesday issued a new rule banning bump stocks, the attachments that enable semiautomatic rifles to fire in sustained, rapid bursts and that a gunman used to massacre 58 people and wound hundreds of others at a Las Vegas concert in October 2017.

The new regulation, which had been expected, would ban the sale or possession of the devices under a new interpretation of existing law. Americans who own bump stocks would have 90 days to destroy their devices or to turn them in to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The Justice Department said A.T.F. would post destruction instructions on its website.

Bump stocks work by harnessing a firearm’s recoil energy to slide it back and forth to bump against a squeezed trigger, so that it keeps firing without any need for the shooter to pull the trigger again. The Justice Department said that this function transforms semiautomatic weapons, like assault rifles styled on the AR-15, into fully automatic machine guns, which Congress sharply restricted in 1986 — allowing the ban.

“With limited exceptions, the Gun Control Act, as amended, makes it unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machine-gun unless it was lawfully possessed prior to the effective date of the statute,” the new regulation states. “The bump-stock-type devices covered by this final rule were not in existence prior to the effective date of the statute, and therefore will be prohibited when this rule becomes effective.”

A senior Justice Department official, briefing reporters about the new rule on condition of anonymity, said that it was believed that tens of thousands of bump-stock devices are in circulation, but that more exact figures are unavailable. The official said the department expected that most owners of the devices would comply with the new regulation, and that A.T.F. would investigate and take legal action against those who violate it.

After publishing a proposed version of the rule earlier this year, the government received 119,264 comments in support of it and 66,182 expressing opposition to it, the Justice Department said.

The regulatory move may face a legal challenge. The Justice Department had initially decided that the executive branch lacked the authority to ban bump stocks on its own under existing gun-control laws, and that action in Congress — where it is politically difficult to enact new gun-control legislation — would be necessary to curb legal access to the devices.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/us/politics/trump-bump-stocks-ban.html

Bumpstocks are a somewhat popular firearms accessory that attaches to several popular guns in place of the normal stock and more or less uses the recoil of the firearm to allow you to fire quickly. They're impractical, silly, and mostly just for dumping a few magazines very quickly at milk jugs and soda bottles.

Supposedly, the vegas shooter had one in his possession when he COMP'd an entire country music festival. It has since come to light that while he may have, he also had more effective and already illegal machine gun conversions on hand anyway (a sort of ghetto lightning link sort of device, but I don't want to drift too far off topic). Bump stocks remained relatively obscure outside of a few calls for their banning.

Donald Trump, bizarrely, decided to make it a bit of a personal crusade to ban them, and has been at it for about a year or so now, generally agitating for it after the parkland shootings, which tragically missed david Hogg and also more bizarrely did not involve a bump stock which makes it even more of a head scratcher.

As of today, POTUS has finalized a rule, signed by his acting AG, that states bump stocks are now machine guns and anyone owning them has 90 days to turn them in or destroy them.

Mind, these are not $10 or $20 parts- they generally went for $200-400, and the expectation is that they be destroyed without compensation. And also, the determination that they are illegal comes after the Obama era ATF specifically determining that they were, in fact, legal, and that banning them would require legislative action and be beyond the purview of a regulatory agency.

As a result, multiple organizations have already filed for injunctions against the act, with more to follow. For an extra twist to an already bizarre legal game of twister, the NRA came out in favor of a bump stock ban after the vegas shooting.

Link to a press release from the Gun Owners of America, who largely pushed what became DC v Heller, aka the SCOTUS decision which enshrined the individualist second amendment (thanks, Scalia!).

(CORRECTION: that was the second amendment foundation, not GOA)

https://www.gunowners.org/goa-file-bump-stock-suit.htm

Direct link to the text of the ATF rule change banning bumpstocks within 90 days.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5635249/Bump-Stock-Final-Rule.pdf

For those concerned, binary triggers and "gatling" type devices are made mention of and specifically exempted... until next week, when the government decides they are also machine guns after going on record stating to the contrary.

Additionally, nobody knows how many bumpstocks there are, as several companies made them. I have seen estimates from 200-450k. You can't go to a gunshow without seeing dozens of them.
 
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Edit: also, fuck the NRA for bowing down under pressure and supporting this shit. Ever since they came out with that stance after the Vegas shooting, they've been totally discredited as a defender of the Constitution. It doesn't say "to bear the arms that we like, but not the ones we think are dumb", you fags. It says "arms".
The only reason the NRA are ok with this is because the gun manufacturers dont make any significant money off bump stocks. If they did theyd be up in arms against it. The NRA isnt a gun ownership lobby is a gun manufacturer lobby.
 
Yeah I know next to nothing about guns, but even I knew while reading this thread that "bump stocks must make accuracy an absolute joke"
That and you don't need a bump stock to bumpfire. Just look it up on youtube. It's not complicated and just takes some practice.

Also to anyone who has never served in the military, most infantryman have their weapons on semi-auto for the most part. When I was in, the combat load was only 210 rounds (1 mag in the gun, 3 in the two pouches you have on your web gear) and full-auto/burst will eat through that fast.

Sounds like a political strategy to me. Banning something inconsequential will appease the gun control crowd, while gun enthusiasts have no reason to worry about a worthless part.
Yeah, annoying but it will shut them up and take some fuel out of their tank about gun violence. Granted not much but meh.

Bump stocks are dumb as shit and were a loophole to get around existing laws. This seems like they're just closing up that loophole.
True but it doesn't ban bumpfiring itself. Just a youtube video and some practice and you can bumpfire even from the shoulder. Now accurately? Probably not.

The really incredible thing about how useless this plan will be is that bump stocks don't actually affect the mechanism of the gun at all. They are just designed to overcome the biomechanical limitations of your hands, since most people can't make extremely fast "pulls" with one finger. As a result, anything that allows you to move the gun back and forth really fast (like a rubber band or a belt loop) will accomplish the exact same effect, just with a little less regularity and safety. Some pro shooters don't even need it, they can just pull the trigger *really* fast due to practice.

If a drunk redneck wants to make his gun shoot FAST N LOUD, he will find a way. This legislation just saves him the 200 dollars he would have spent and trades it for the toes he blows off because he tied his gun to his belt loop.
A lot of backwoods rednecks have a pastime of violating the NFA with sawed off shotguns and home made subguns and suppressors. Even the ATF admits they estimate there are 20 million unregistered machine guns out there in the US.

I mean, people who want this ban know literally nothing about guns or firearm laws. They think you can buy a "machine gun" at a gun show through the "gun show loophole."
Yeah, trying to explain to family members who have no knowledge of guns that you can build your own guns if they don't violate the NFA. Or explaining to them that in states like Texas there is no gun registration.

I can bump fire with my shoulder.

Gonna ban the shroom now, ATF?
LOL right? I mean shit, I've bumpfired my AK and AR...hell my SKS too. It's kinda fun but a complete waste of ammo.
 
Look out, boys! They're coming for you!

gun confiscation unit.png
 
The only reason the NRA are ok with this is because the gun manufacturers dont make any significant money off bump stocks. If they did theyd be up in arms against it. The NRA isnt a gun ownership lobby is a gun manufacturer lobby.

It's odd how people disagree with you when they support enormous tariffs and restrictions on foreign made guns.
 
What's next, a ban on those cans of nuts with a paper snake that pops out? Those have probably caused at least one fat fuck to keel over from a heart attack.
 
he also had more effective and already illegal machine gun conversions on hand anyway (a sort of ghetto lightning link sort of device, but I don't want to drift too far off topic)
source for that, as it's the first i've heard of him using a lightning link style device. also lol at the people that keep harping that he used a FN-MAG or 240B or whatever.
missing every shot on your target
bumpfiring using a bump stock is very controllable. your accuracy significantly goes down at range, however it's enough to hit pie plates at 20 meters for most adults. it's not like a videogame where bumpstocks have -99% accuracy stats.
atf defined a machine gun
Congress defined a machinegun in 18 USC 44, 921 (23). BATFE interprets that definition and regulates machineguns as defined. there is a difference.

also the bumpstock ban support was very unpopular but it was a hard choice for the NRA-ILA to support because they didn't want to make it a hill worth dying on when they were focused instead (at the time) of ensuring that a more general assault weapon (modern sporting rifles) ban would not happen after the string of popularized mass shootings in 2015 and 16.
 
Yeah, annoying but it will shut them up and take some fuel out of their tank about gun violence. Granted not much but meh.
I give it a year or two tops before the anti-gun nuts realize that banning them was a complete waste of time and they demand to ban something else next.
 
source for that, as it's the first i've heard of him using a lightning link style device. also lol at the people that keep harping that he used a FN-MAG or 240B or whatever.

Congress defined a machinegun in 18 USC 44, 921 (23). BATFE interprets that definition and regulates machineguns as defined. there is a difference.

also the bumpstock ban support was very unpopular but it was a hard choice for the NRA-ILA to support because they didn't want to make it a hill worth dying on when they were focused instead (at the time) of ensuring that a more general assault weapon (modern sporting rifles) ban would not happen after the string of popularized mass shootings in 2015 and 16.

I suppose I should have been more certain of my sources. There were posts on arfcom indicating that he used something similar to but a bit less primitive than the coat hanger "lightning links" that have been floating around recently. Unfortunately, that website is full of cucks and the very informative thread was nuked because they don't approve of 07/02 ffls sharing information that is totally legal in public. Officially I suppose we don't and may never know exactly what Paddock used, because that entire story is the stuff conspiracy theorists get rock hard to. So I regret that I cannot link any of those posts, although I suppose I do not have authoritative proof he used them regardless, because nobody except the bioluminescent CIA negroes know.

While Congress may legally set the definition of a machine gun, I disagree with your premise that there is any substantive difference as they arbitrarily reclassified a bumpstock- something that is emphatically not a machine gun by the definition set out by law- into a machine gun.

From the first sentence of the rule,

The Department of Justice is amending the regulations of the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) to clarify that bump-stock-type
devices-meaning "bump fire" stocks, slide-fire devices, and devices with certain similar
characteristics-are "machineguns" as defined by the National Firearms Act of 1934 and
the Gun Control Act of 1968 because such devices allow a shooter of a semiautomatic
firearm to initiate a continuous firing cycle with a single pull of the trigger.

A page or two later,

ATF decided to promulgate a rule that would bring clarity to the definition of
"machinegun"

Sorry, but if you're making rules that bring "clarity" to a definition, then you are essentially writing the rulebook. Anything else is pedantry, since most of the ruling essentially just says "we changed our mind, these are machineguns now, and here are the updated definitions for the federal register, the thing that actually matters here barring injunctive relief and a successful court case".

For extra bonus points,

This definition uses the key terms "single function of the
trigger" and "automatically," but these terms are not defined in the statutory text.

The Department, however, has revised the definition of"single
function of the trigger" to mean "single pull of the trigger" and analogous motions, taking
into account that there are other methods of initiating an automatic firing sequence that
do not require a pull.

Again, when the agencies issuing these decisions have no oversight and can make the decisions more or less as they wish, the distinction is academic at best. A rifle equipped with a bumpstock still requires manual activation of the trigger for each round to be fired- it's not like a shoestring machine gun. Would I be creating a machine gun if I placed a semiautomatic firearm in a machine rest that automatically returned to zero and kept my finger in position?

Barring Lautenberg and lawful commerce in arms Congress itself has barely touched anything gun related for years, unless you count letting the HPA die in committee or whatever. There have been some import bans, but that's more on the executive. They do not have any real interest in altering the definitions one way or the other, or fact checking the ATF. That will be up to the courts from here on.

Regarding the NRA, their bumpstock statement was another of their wonderful examples of "compromise"- the sort where gun owners didn't actually win anything, but the NRA points at it and says that they fought off a bigger boogeyman. Nothing directly came from Vegas (until now, I suppose? I'm no conspiratard but it still amazes me how quickly such an absolute spectacle got pushed out of the mainstream. I would like to credit it to a national distaste for Jason Aldean.) but Floridian gun owners got absolutely fucked after Parkland, especially those who were under 21.

Sorry for the formatting, stuck at the office phone posting. I gather that you work at a gun store from previous posts, so if it makes you feel better I did call one of my friends at the ATF and called him a faggot earlier.
 
Damn. Now bump stock enthusiasts will have to invest in leather belts they can wrap around the gun grip and their shoulders. Belts are expensive! :c

This is stupid as hell. I'm sure it's a considered move, as in, "let's sacrifice this one, useless thing for the sake of optics," but it's still nonsense.

1776 when
 
I suppose I should have been more certain of my sources. There were posts on arfcom indicating that he used something similar to but a bit less primitive than the coat hanger "lightning links" that have been floating around recently.
i'm familiar with the method. it isn't reliable over time due to the wire used in coat hangers, and more over, you would have better results with a tin can and tin snips. for the record, i'm an 07/02.

While Congress may legally set the definition of a machine gun, I disagree with your premise that there is any substantive difference as they arbitrarily reclassified a bumpstock- something that is emphatically not a machine gun by the definition set out by law- into a machine gun.
whether you agree or not is irrelevant. Congress sets the law, and the agency interprets and develops regulations to enforce it. this is important to realize because any form of judicial compliant will rely on this as an argument that the agency is overreaching in interpreting 26 USC 5845 (b) that clearly states "single function of the trigger" when the bumpstock explicitly, mechanically, requires multiple functions of the trigger (both the firing, and the reset), will be key. if we acknowledge that the agency does this as a matter of business and accept it, then any such challenge is unlikely to be heard. i'm being specific on purpose.

That will be up to the courts from here on.
which is why it's important to challenge the interpretation as an overreach. you can "convert" nearly any semi-auto firearm with shoe laces and a pull ring. are those to be banned as well? this new interpretation will likely go the way of the "firearm" AOW (Franklin Arms drama) - enforceable, but unable to hold up in courts because the law itself directly counters the interpretation.

NRA points at it and says that they fought off a bigger boogeyman.
at the time, with an executive in power and a large fervor banging the drums on red-flag laws, mandatory mental health screenings, mandatory insurance for gun owners, extra judicial confiscation, tightening of existing laws in some states, the deaths of nearly 100 people in multiple massacres over a period of a year, including two that targeted police, gays in a night club, at least three schools, and then one in LV with a spectacle on national news outlets (Stoneman Douglas was in Feb 2018, so i'm not including it); the NRA was facing a loss of revenue from minor boycotts and lawsuits, and was keeping this played close to the chest. i don't have to agree with the strategy to recognize the reasoning they have behind it. the compromise you missed was that the NRA was pushing hard for a national conceal carry reciprocity law.

I more just thought: the fuck are bumpstocks?
the Hughes amendment of the Firearm Owners Protection Act (signed by Pres. Reagan) of May 19, 1986 forbids the individual transfer of new machineguns; effectively banning them from public sale and ownership if they were manufactured past that date. this makes transferable machineguns exorbitantly expensive compared to non-MG version of the same firearm. since then, there have been many devices that worked to bring simulated automatic fire to the masses through unconventional means.

a bumpstock is a just such a device that functions by utilizing forward pressure to reset a trigger against the recoil impulse generated from firing. this "bumps" the firearm back and forth. if your trigger finger is held stationary, this motion can then be used to actuate the trigger of the firearm repeatedly; often much faster (although inconsistently) than what is typically possible. this simulates, in practice, fully automatic fire for an otherwise unregulated title i firearm (a typical semiautomatic rifle, generally).

you can also perform the same feat (as others in the thread have mentioned) with string/shoelaces, a "bumpstick" (a formed 2x4 and dowel), a belt loop, a belt, "floating" the rifle off the shoulder, holding the rifle in a specific way so your trigger finger bounces on the return stroke under recoil, with an arrangement of weights and springs, with a tuna can lid, foam ear plugs, and many more "conversion devices".

such conversions are trivial to anyone with any degree of mechanical aptitude. a bumpstock is one of the safer, more controllable, options compared to alternatives; and all bump firing techniques are ineffective without mastering the shooting technique itself.
 
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the compromise you missed was that the NRA was pushing hard for a national conceal carry reciprocity law.
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Yeah, a "compromise" would imply that got anywhere. Trump went for the Cornyn NICS bill instead, shit talked the NRA publicly, had an appearance with Dianne Feinstein, and then ended up giving a speech at the Dallas convention. He cucked the NRA harder than any left wing politician has in... ever. With compromises like that, they may as well hang it up.

Then the reciprocity bill died in the senate, because Congress really, really doesn't want to ever touch anything gun related if they can help it. Especially the senate. Two years with a Republican majority in both houses and the NRA doesn't have a thing to show for it (federally).

I don't own or have any desire to own a bumpstock but after the NRA came through with their statement on wanting to ban them I wanted to shred my instructor ID card.

We will see what happens but I am not optimistic. Executive decree flew threw the courts just fine in the Obama years- although to be fair this is an exceptionally egregious case- and I can't see any of the usual suspects who normally are willing to shoot down Trump actions being willing to go against gun control. Gun owners just don't have the best track record with prevailing in federal court, and even when we do it comes with serious caveats.
 
also the bumpstock ban support was very unpopular but it was a hard choice for the NRA-ILA to support because they didn't want to make it a hill worth dying on when they were focused instead (at the time) of ensuring that a more general assault weapon (modern sporting rifles) ban would not happen after the string of popularized mass shootings in 2015 and 16.

I'm starting to think the NRA is going to decide 80% receivers isn't the hill to die on either. If I have to turn in my pew-no pew lower I'm never giving them another cent.
 
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